Phenethylamines The Big & Dandy Bromo-Dragonfly/DOB-Dragonfly Thread

[crOOk]

1) I would never give the drug to anyone who has not informed himself about it.
2) There are going to be fast acting benzodiazepines around.
3) There are going to be lots (!) of experienced trippers around.
4) I am most positive that there are going to be medics around who will most likely have antipsychotics as well.
5) Someone has to try it. It's never gonna sound "rational" to ingest a new RC... Will it?
6) I am not going to mix it with anything else.
7) Didn't someone mention it would in his opinion be best fitted for an outdoor event?

crOOk

 

[gloggawogga]

1) I would never give the drug to anyone who has not informed himself about it.

Like they are going to spontaneously inform themselves at a rave.

2) There are going to be fast acting benzodiazepines around.
3) There are going to be lots (!) of experienced trippers around.
4) I am most positive that there are going to be medics around who will most likely have antipsychotics as well.

And like those medics are going to know all about any possible contraindications between bromo-dragonfly and other drugs. They're going to know all about it...uh hum.

5) Someone has to try it. It's never gonna sound "rational" to ingest a new RC... Will it?

Yeah but a rave is not a wise setting to experiment with an unresearched chemical like this one.

6) I am not going to mix it with anything else.

But you had to ask.

7) Didn't someone mention it would in his opinion be best fitted for an outdoor event?

Some one did, and someone else reported a loss of contact with reality. And even the person who said it would be good for an outdoor event wrote: "For the record, SWIM took it in an apartment, with a sober assistant, and ready access to a phone."

 

[farabove_theclouds]

Source? To me this sounds like a pharmacological impossibility. Plain bullshit. I have strong doubts that either an antipsychotic like Thorazine, or a benzodiazepine like Temazepam or Lorazepam could possibly have any effects like that. If they had, I would most likely know about it. Then again, I have not studied pharmacology and have been surprised before by weird chemical interactions, so thanks for the warning. I'm still going to ignore it unless I will hear more reliable information on this topic.

Well you catched me on the wrong feet actually! I thought I am the last one knew this, since some people around me told it me as "everybody knows it". I got this information from two (independent) persons who used DOB regularily both more then 10 times in their lives. Both told me about this interaction (in form of increasing the psychedelic effect) which they used to alter the quality of the trip and also to "save" material. But as I said I don't remember the name of the specific benzo they both told me. This is definitely NOT a reliable information source as you stated already and since I personally have no experience with this substance at all I can't judge it. When it IS just a legend, then it is not a net gossip but more likely some false cause effect or the guys are just schizo Acidheads (but actually I believed them since they not out of reality). Erowid does not has it written in the sideeffects, just alc, Amphetamines,...
When seeking for any "proof" for this statement I found just THIS Guy saying the following:

Because of the long duration, you'll likely get annoyed by the side effects so taking some benzodiazepines could be a good way to pass the time. Benzos such as Clonazepam and Nitrazepam also seem to have a synergicstic effect with DOB, increasing the psychedelic aspects of the experience (which is weird); they also relax you a great deal and take the edge of in general, but it is unlikely that you'll be able to fully 'come down' while DOB is in your system no matter how many you take.

well...I don't know but I wouldn't say it is completely bullshit unless some experienced DOB users (who did the combination) tell me that.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Yep - what's needed is for somebody to take a small (relative to dose for full effects) dose and then record things like pulse rate and BP in response to a series of challenges before being happy that it's relatively safe.

For example; before taking a combined dose of amphetamine & IAP (to try and reproduce the MDA effect - serotonin and dopamine release), I tried taking a dose that amounted to 10 percent that of the dose of IAP I intended to take, then administering a very small (2.5mg) of amphetamine and recording heart rate and BP, then comparing it with what 2.5mg of amphetamine did on its own. Once that appeared safe, I repeated again , only using 20mg of amphet instead of 2.5mg.

It was only after I was convinced that IAP had no dangerous interactions with amphetamine that I tried the intended 30mg of IAP and 30mg of amphetamine. People know diddly squat about a lot of these RC, so you have to tread very carefully in this unknown territory

 

[azzazza !?]

you can defend anything with reason crook. one can very reasonable say the outside world does not exist and there is no absolute argument against it (sceptics), one can prove by reason alone there are 7 planets in the universe, that is must be so and cannot be any other way (Hegel),.. the list is endless. futher, reason itself does not convince people, asking for reasonable arguments against you is useless. you know how a new scientific paradigm like einsteins universe is accepted? the scientists using to the old one die out, never accepting the new theory, always trying to incorporate the evidence proving the new theory in their own old paradigm. The younger, furthering the new theories (in search of establishing their own name) take over the educational institutions. the textbooks are then rewritten just like after a revolution historybooks are rewritten, justifying what is now.
accept that what you plan to do is has nothing to do with reason at all, it is in its very core an unsupported 'preference', as glogga said. then you build reason around that to make yourself believe otherwise.
Now, how wise is it to go against the ideas of all these knowledgeable people on this board? their combined experience far exceeds your own (thats why you post your 'question' here). and dont tell me science uses reason, and look how far they got. science 's base is experience; empirical observation and evidence. reason follows.
btw putting yourself in danger is one thing, putting others in danger is unacceptable by any means

edit: if you want reason anyway; how hard is it to see that an evironment where you are much more in control of is better then an environment where almost everything is out of your control. scientific experiments are conducted in a controlled enviroment, where the variables can be adjusted by the conductor

 

[Neo1]

All good points people, and mostly rational ones at that.

If Crook wants to try this new substance at this event, that's his personal choice. But I would draw the line at offering it around willy-nilly to anyone and everyone..... that's irresponsible. It's the kind of substance that should be restricted to those who seek it, rather than offered to anyone.

Crook might feel ok with the uncertainty of an event such as Voov. Maybe he likes the possibility of danger, like racing-drivers do. But he is also correct in that medical care is probably closer there than it would be at home. Maybe he lives on a mountaintop or something. All I can say is that I hope you dose low to start, mate.

My reluctance to take such a substance as Br-DFLY at such an event would come from another angle. At an event such as this, I'd want to be taking something tried-and-tested so that I could have an amazing time. If I were starting low, I might not get an effect suitable for the event. It might be too lacklustre or too overpowering. But beight a new compound, I wouldn't want to push the dosage there and then either ('cos hey folks, I want to be around next week so I can try the new superduper br-DFLY-MKII squared.)

I can see the temptation of trying something like DFLY at a massive event such as Voov, I used to feel the same way in my early days of LSD use. But 16 years of tripping in all kinds of ways has taught me that it's not the forseeable variables that are problematic, it's the unforseeable ones.

Be safe,
Neo

 

[moab]

Originally posted by Neo1
All good points people, and mostly rational ones at that.

If Crook wants to try this new substance at this event, that's his personal choice. But I would draw the line at offering it around willy-nilly to anyone and everyone..... that's irresponsible. It's the kind of substance that should be restricted to those who seek it, rather than offered to anyone.

Totally agree with that. I assume crOOk has read enough to make his decision, so even if we find it too dangerous and risky we have to respect his choice. Many people would not understand why most of us take RC, but the thing is that we do because is our decision, because for us the benefits are greater than the risks. And I find that totally respectable. Individual freedom goes first, for me.

That doesn't mean that giving B-DrFly is, in my opinion, unacceptable as it involves other people, so it's not their choice. I believe RC should not be offered, as Neo1 said, only those who seek them should try them. And this has nothing to do with elitism, it's only being responsible.

 

[serpent]

i believe crook was hinting that he may be meeting another bluelighter there who has an interest in bdf.if so,thats a bit different to handing it out willynilly.i have tried quite a few rc's at festivals,reason being there is plenty of things to do that are all aimed at people in a psychedelic state.as crook mentioned there are also people there specifically trained in dealing with bad trips,overheating etc.probably more people there trained in it than at a hospital.however i have never taken an rc for the first time at a place like that,i think its always best to take half a threshold dose at home the week before,just to check that your not going to have the screaming shits(my worst fear at a festival)or an allergic reaction.i would suggest doing just that to check that your reaction will be the one hoped for,before taking it at an event.as far as the dpt goes,i would advise smoking half or less than your normal dose,if you feel safe enough to.anymore could be potentiated by the bdf and make you trip twice as hard as intended.10mgs of nn'dmt was enough for me to breakthrough whilst on 80mgs mdma and 12mgs 4-ho mipt.normally it would be about 40mgs of nn'dmt to breakthrough.
have you tried asking your supplier what dose he reccomends crook?

 

[fastandbulbous]

Serpent:

Cr00k's desire to dose himself with said dragonfly is his choice entirely, regardless of how foolhardy we consider it, but don't go telling him about taking other drugs in smaller quantities in combination with it would be safe even if he reduces the dose. Did you see my post on how things can turn out totally different to how you expect. Taking a pill of 4-MTA and then a small dose of say meth or MDA would land you in an A&E (ER for US readers) dept with a hypertensive crisis and possible serotonin syndrome. We have no idea which metabolic enzymes this compound might inhibit; therefore no idea of what effects other drugs might have on the body. Taking it at an outdoor event is taking risks (but that's, in the final analysis, his choice), but taking other drugs on top in such an enviroment is akin to an unspoken death wish and should NEVER be encouraged. There's a protocol for such things, and for these compounds, I've tried to devise one that is fairly safe, but even then I'm taking risks

 

[hugo24]

DOB can give some glowing experiences in the 200ug-500ug range (the latter already giving CEV,movement of objects),perceptual enhancement,stimulation etc..almost free of bothersome physicals.I would want to search out Bromodragonfly first at the 20-50ug levels,thats for sure.
The comparison DOB - MDA isnt accurate in my mind,DOB is way more psychedelic.

Some 13 years ago (my first psych. experiments),I did once a stupid thing and never again,taking an overdose (didn't weigh it correctly...) of such a potent compound.I completely lost consciousness and reality,something you do not expect from mind-expanding drugs and ended up as in hospital.Well,I survived and no,I did not have to amputate my legs as another rumour goes with DOB.There were serious physical effects like heavy convulsions,urinary retention to the point of very painful etc.

Psychological:Violent behaviour (well,not against people only things but sexually probably offensive),selfdestructive behaviour (feeling no pain like erowid describes).

It must have been 6-7 mg.That was quite a lesson,I really remember only traces and this disturbs me the most.

 

[fastandbulbous]

It must have been 6-7 mg

6-7mg of DOB - that's quite a hefty dose. Did you experience leg cramps etc (if you can remember)?

I think any vasoconstriction that is caused by DOB would be via the alpha-adrenergic system (a bit like ergotamine), but obviously nowhere near as severe. I know that the person who survived snorting 80mg+ was in a hell of a state for a long time, but I can't remember reading anything about ergotamine like symptoms. Because of that, I'd think that DOB has a ceiling to it's vasoconstrictor effects - enough to cause iscaemic pain, but not enough to cause necrosis. The weird thing is that DOI is relatively easy going on the body, by comparison (yet to get a report from a friend as to what DOC is like on the body, but Shulgin didn't give any hints of it being bad).

I'm hoping that bromo-dragonfly doesn't share the vasoconstrictor properties that DOB displays (for obvious reasons). As for initial dosing, I agree with hugo24 in that doses of 20-50ug (comparable with 200-500ug of DOB) would be a good place to start investigating. It's also a lot more enjoyable not to be totally whacked on a first dose of an unknown psychedelic

 

[hugo24]

f&b

Leg cramps,no,at least not on the come up before losing consc.,after "waking up" I remember cold legs though.The few flashes I kept from the plateau is that the unbearable energy-pressure inside is making you try to release it with running around and banging whatever body part against the walls.

The cramping later on was more a whole body cramping,starting in the back-lots of valium hepled but only for short times.I was not told of being given vasodilators.

Now that you bring the Ergotamin comparison up,I recently had to take some against Headache as Dihydroergotamin is not available anymore- this put me in some unpleasant state not unlike I remember on the DOB come up then,maybe my psyche suddenly remembered something.

Pleasant shivering and a frizzy feeling is a property of even low doses of DOB (alpha stuff? like amphetamin).Maybe its only one isomer.

Reagrding DOI,i read a report of a 6mg experiment being hard but not a problem.

Maybe the dragonfly only has the psychedelic effects lowered to the 100ug range,meaning higher selectivity overall?

 

[Smyth]

What exactly is the motivation for wanting to try bromdragonfly anyway?

[obviously I am speaking in comparison to the PEA/PIPA compounds]

I guess this is largely subjective question like why does anybody want to do anything. But if anybody has any meaningful answers that they'd like to share then i'd be interested in reading them.

 

[Tryptamine*Dreamer]

What exactly is the motivation for wanting to try bromdragonfly anyway?

[obviously I am speaking in comparison to the PEA/PIPA compounds]

I guess this is largely subjective question like why does anybody want to do anything. But if anybody has any meaningful answers that they'd like to share then i'd be interested in reading them.

I am going to try it soon for several reasons, including curiosity. One reason is that it has a very long duration of effects and I like long trips. Another reason is that I have not tried any of the DOx chemicals and this may be similar to DOB. And trying new things is exciting.

I think I will use 100ug or maybe 150ug for my first time.

 

[hugo24]

"What exactly is the motivation for wanting to try bromdragonfly anyway?"

If this whole new difuranyl structure is changing the overall feeling of these compounds.

But frankly,I have my reservations about these amphetamine psychedelics as they have some serious side effects,even though I like long experiences (2C-P!!),but 20-30h is a bit too long as it interferes with sleeping routine (something I find important in my life).And the sleep after these amphetamines is,well,either isn't or is bad.Having said this,DOM is still one of my favourites!

Generally though,I found the corresponding 2C's much much more suitable and selectively pleasant psychedelic.

Why the hell is none making the 2C-Dragonfly's,CD,CE,CP,TFM etc?I mean possible doses at 0.5-5mg is a very good mileage,especially when providing a wonderful experience.

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ You'd think that RC vendors, motivated by that little human quirk known as avarice would have been working their little arses off securing a supply of 2C-B dragonfly (8-bromo-4(2-aminoethyl)benzodifuran), as 2C-B seems to be their 'holy grail' in terms of acceptance by the great unwashed masses (otherwise why did the 2C-B/BZP hybrid show itself a while ago?).

Shit, a 2C-B replacement that would be active at around 1mg, you'd think we'd be getting a flood of it turning up


On reading that back, it def looks like I got out of the wrong side of bed - not usually that cynical - oh well, some DOB should fix that!

 

[C6H6]

Why the hell is none making the 2C-Dragonfly's,CD,CE,CP,TFM etc?

Because it's too costly and there's no sufficient market for these to sell enough to make back the money it costs to have them made.

I think that this chase for potency is making no sense anyhow. Just because a compound is more potent doesn't make it a better or more pleasant psychedelic. Tripping for 24 hours isn't such a great thing either. I haven't tried any of the ultra-potent, ultra-long compounds, and I'd choose 2C-D any day over them. Where's the point with these compounds?

In my opinion it would serve the world better if the phenethyl/phenylisopropyl moiety could be modified so that the compounds wouldn't fall under the UK (and other places) catch-all laws any more.

 

[subdefy]

I suppose another benefit would be if these flies are truly gems then the potency will be good for those who don't like to shell out a large amount of cash to purchase RC's. If you could dose 1mg for something like 2cb dragonfly imagine how long that gram would last

I'm really looking forward to 2cb dragon/fly, I too have wondered why no one has synthed it yet. Something like that given it has even remotely similar effects would be gone extremely fast given 2C-B's popularity.

 

[fastandbulbous]

To be honest, if someone does synth them then put then on the RC market, I hope they make the cost quite high - that'll hopefully keep some of the arseholes who take multiple doses on a daily basis from killing themselves and focusing unwarrented attention upon the new compounds. If they were to say start selling bromo-dragonfly at say $1000 a gram ($0.20/dose) you can bet that it wouldn't take long until hospital admissions citing the drug would start cropping up.

And we all know where that leads...

 

[fastandbulbous]

I've got a report from someone I used to chat with when the Hive was up & running about 6-(2-aminopropyl)-2,3-dihydrobenzofuran - it's a hybrid of MDA & IAP (see below)

He said that at 200mg it was very rewarding in a strange MDA sort of way (said he'd def do it again). Reports I've read from someone else I know who tasted the 5-(2-aminopropyl)-2,3-dihydrobenzofuran (swap position of oxygen in furan ring) said it was a bit of a disappointment. From the work Nichols did on SAR of MDA like agents (it included IAP and MMAI), it appears that to get decent effects on dopamine release, you need an oxygen atom (or other lone pair containing atom eg nitrogen) meta-orientated to the isopropyl side chain.

Actually, IAP with a dopaminergic agent (like amphetamine) included with it produces a very MDA like experience. The friend who gave me the info about the 5-(2-aminopropyl)-2,3-dihydrobenzofuran also synthed some N-methyl IAP (called it IMP - liked the name!), with a view to getting a more dopaminergic response from it - I'll see if he's happy to make the notes public

Thanks to InfiniteBITCH for pointing out the error