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driving while rolling/tripping

Velocide, did you even read the studies you posted?

MDMA improved psychomotor performance, such as movement speed and tracking performance in a single task, as well as in a divided attention task. There was no effect of MDMA on visual search, planning or retrieval from semantic memory.

The only negative in that statement is that it *may* indicate an impairment on a similar divided attention task (driving) by a translative assumption.

RESULTS: Driving performance in the sense of lateral and longitudinal vehicle control WAS NOT GREATLY AFFECTED after MDMA, but deteriorated after multiple drug use. The most striking result was the apparent decreased sense for risk taking, both after MDMA and after multiple drug use.

This speaks for itself. Of course if you combine drugs HEAVILY you will lose control of your motor skills.

The last one is a case study of 18 people who happened to be on MDMA while being pulled over. Only 6 were on MDMA alone.

From your own evidence, I would argue there is no conclusive data that suggests an individual who can moderate their intake, cannot also operate a motor vehicle properly. Furthermore, I would contend you pasted whatever studies you could find rather than refute my analysis or even consider the logic.

-AA
 
You're selectively pasting from those studies.
Driving under the influence of MDMA alone is certainly not safe
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These findings are consistent with other reports, and lead to the conclusion that MDMA use is not consistent with safe driving, and that impairment of various types may persist for a considerable time after last use.
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I've already considered your logic. What your proposing is something along the lines of minimal impairment -- that it is still possible to operate a motor vehicle in a safe fashion whilst under the influence.

Ultimately it comes down to a matter of risk analysis; what risk are you prepared to accept? In Australia the blood alcohol limit is 0.05, at which point the risk of crashing is about double that at 0.00.

I agree that there is such a threshold for MDMA; logically there must be. The question is: does this threshold coincide with the recreational use of the drug?

Alcohol's effects are very roughly linear -- intoxication correlates with blood level. Moreover due to the size of drinks, its possible to roughly "select" a level of intoxication. If you're not drunk enough, you can drink more. Alcoholic drinks clear at about the rate of 10gm of ethanol per hour.

MDMA, on the other hand, has a threshold below which the effects are either minimal or nonexistant. MDMA has non-linear pharmacokinetics. The difference between a weak experience and a strong one is not as large as one might expect on a per mg basis. Moreover, you can't "select" a level of intoxication. Pills come prepackaged at a certain level, designed to produce (very roughly) a good effect. Splitting of doses is possible, though not hugely accurate due to the size of the package, and again you suffer from the non-linearity problem.

(It's worth noting that GHB suffers from a similar package size issue -- very small amount of material, and quite dose sensitive. The GHB overdose effects are substantially worse, however).

Repeated dosing works for alcohol, but not for MDMA -- at least not as effectively. If you're not drunk enough, you can drink more. MDMA users generally have one (at best) two shots of reaching the level of intoxication desired, and working that out is extremely difficult due to the time delay between administration and effects, and variability of pills (both in terms of dose and absorption kinetics)


You're right, strictly speaking, that very low doses probably don't substantially impair driving ability. The problem is that people don't take very low doses. WHat is generally accepted as the recreational dose DOES impair driving ability in my view.

I admit that the research simply isn't sufficient. Have you looked at anyone who has taken half an OK pill? Though its not CNS depression, their level of intoxication seems to me to be at least equivalent to 0.05 BAC (and quite possibly more).

If society decides (via the parliament) that 0.05 is the acceptable level of intoxication for drivers (either on a subjective evaluation of a person's intoxication, or on an assessment of the risk i.e. doubling of chance of accident), then it seems to me that there's no reasonable recreational dose that offers a lower risk of accident than the alcohol equivalent.

Just on a side note: being experienced with intoxicants may produce familiarity, but it does not absolve the problems with functional impairment i.e. delayed reactions, altered perceptions. Moreover such experience may produce increased risk-taking due to a false perception of skill.
 
AnonAce said:
Velocide

You can argue all you like, while you have blind assertion, I have facts & years of experience.




-AA
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Grow up buddy.
Its people like you that get inocents killed
 
AnonAce said:
or even consider the logic.
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Your logic is "I know what its like to be slightly high, and I reckon I can drive fine". I know people who know what its like to have drunk 6 pints of beer and "reckon they can drive". Most don't have their licenses any more, thank god.

Grow the fuck up.
 
Velocide- I think your above post had a lot of merit. I agree with you that most people can't control their intoxicants, but I disagree somewhat about the relative strength of a recreational dose and an individual's ability to choose their level of intoxication- even with MDMA. Most responsible people I know, who have experience w. ecstasy will take a small amount (half, or one pill) judge the effects thereof, and then make a decision whether or not to ingest more- most often not, if they have to drive. I'm not sure what pills are like in Australia, but I think an experienced driver/user could drive just as well on 1-2 pills (~200mg). I'll agree if someone's taking 5 pills in a night, eating shroomz, and happens to find some speed- they should not be driving.

AlphaNumeric- that wasn't my logic. I'd respond in language you would understand, but I would guess you are the kind of moderator to abuse your power and take things too personally.

-AA
 
I think an experienced driver would be totally incapabale of driving on 200mg. Have you seen people at raves? They're completely munted. Jaw gurning, talking absolute crap, and that's just on one decent pill....

I know that's hardly a scientific test, but take a look at how people behave on MDMA and tell me that them driving ISN'T a serious liability to society
 
Anonace -- I've never seen Alphanumeric abuse his power. He's simply stating the truth that people wildly overestimate their driving ability whilst intoxicated, irrespective of substance. Experience only breeds increased overestimation. It's not possible to argue with that, because it's manifestly the truth.
 
EuPHoRiC_ThOuGhTz said:
yes i've heard this aswell..truck drivers are a few drugs to keep them awake at the wheel...i hope they all get caught..i hate truckies :|
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yeoooo you talking about them big ass mack trucks?? I hate em 2! Always getting in the way going all slow, and I hate it when its a 1 lane road and you have one in front of you creating traffic.GRRR dont get me started on how I HATE mack trucks:X :X :X
 
haha yea especially when it's on a hill..one lane road..and your behind them..and so are 100 cars..they are so slow and it's fucked driving next to them on a 2 lane road they move all over the place 8o
 
AnonAce said:
AlphaNumeric- that wasn't my logic. I'd respond in language you would understand, but I would guess you are the kind of moderator to abuse your power and take things too personally.
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I do not abuse my power (I've given out about 1 offical warning in the last 3 months) and I've the ability to be quite articulate, but in cases like this, I don't feel the need to be elegant with my words, because its quite clear they'd be lost on you anyway.

I've had friends rolls their cars from being too drunk. I've had friends get into accidents from being on too much GHB. I've had friends smash into the side of a building at 40mph, have the car turn over, trapping them inside, and then having to spend the next 4 months in a wheelchair, then another 3 months on crutches because they drove while on MDMA. I've seen the after effects of it, so forgive me if I'm quite opinionated. They thought they could drive fine, they'd done it before, and one more time wouldn't be any different. The driver thought differently when he couldn't walk without help for 7 months! 8)
 
drove twice on AMT. actually 3 times. once i just had to pull over and turn around. by far the hardest time I have ever had trying to drive.

driving drunk gets easier the more times you do it, but i never drive more than a half mile at a time when I do.
 
i used to drive all the time while under the influence(never on alcohol), especially on pills. I did try to be sensible and only drive on no more than half a pill. But i guess that can still be classed as unsensible. If i was really toasted, I would always wait a few hours or get a mate to drive. It was magic on a warm night with the windows down and the wind rushing over your skin.
Sadly though due to roadside drug testing in Melbourne, I am not willing to take the chance anymore. I have been caught once and definitly don't wish to be caught again.
 
my mate used to drive all over the place was a party on wheels, we used to find sumwhere to chill tho once we were all fucked
 
I drove tripping once. Never again. The car was making strange tone noises. Speed and perspective were hard to judge.

EDIT: Buggered if I know how Hunter S. Thompson rode murderbikes on acid. 8o

My scariest memory of being in a car was doing over 160km/h in a 70 zone, about 1 metre behind another car in light traffic. The driver was pilling or coming down off one. I got out of the car and my hands were WHITE, I was gripping the seat in front so hard. Dickhead.
 
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I always drive when I'm rolling. Usually I don't drink so it works out nicely because all my buddies do, and we can still go places that way. I actually find that it improves my driving ability during the night-time, and I hesitate allot less when making small opportunity turning decisions.
 
I believe that everyone's different. Some of you saying you're okay to drive rolling, some okay drunk, ect. If you're not a saint, and never drive on anything (which I'm sure some are) you really can't win in this arguement. To me, driving stoned is the absolute hardest and most risky. Weed is the drug that I feel takes away my motor/decision making skills worst of all. Drinking, on the other hand, I am in complete control. I'm not just "thinking" i'm in control either; unless I'm completely hammered, I do not lose motor skills, reaction times at all. I know most of you are going to say, "bullshit," but the only way I can try to prove it is when I got caught drinking in a taco bell parking lot (yah, i was 18 and dumb as hell) cop made everyone that was drinking blow, and I blew like a .18. Furthermore, I was giving a field sobriety test and passed every part (except the cop 'claims' I had 2 screw-ups with the eye-pen test) To cap it off, the dickhead cop goes "do you even consider yourself drunk" because I had done so much better on the tests than I'm sure he imagined. Then you've got my friend, whose had around the same amount as me, not being able to stand on one foot for more than 3 seconds. Mind you, I'd had about 7 tallboys, and the cops reaction was utter surprise. Different people react to different substances in their own way; meaning I could never do the same stoned. I get paranoid, feel defenseless, just flat out retarded when it comes to decision making ect. Rolling, I feel confident driving, although I make an effort not to, because there is no hiding my dime-sized pupils on a good roll. I dont know if this post strikes a cord, or even makes sense, because I'm tired and coming off a hard day aided with 120 mg of adderall(feeling pretty shitty right about now) I just didn't catch anyone posting about the affects of pot on their driving, when everyone's so keen on slamming driving a little drunk. I am 20 times more dangerous behind the wheel stoned than I am on anything else. Period. That's why I don't do it.
 
I think most people doing E and driving are probably not driving alone and things are distracting towards the end of a good trip, MDMA does get really lucid towards the end, atleast in my encounters

digital
 
The worst i ever drove was while on E and K i drove to 7-11 to get drinks and it felt like i was driving on ice even though the road was clear and it was spring time. Was just really odd thats all.
 
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