What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

heatlessbbq · Oct 24, 2019

I feel so appart of the community.

Interested in other research studies? Find more drug studies.

epic11 · Oct 24, 2019

scatterday said:
Great to see this thread is still coming along well,

Has there been a general consensus on the thread topic and whether or not something has changed.

Last time I was active in this thread there was a discussion regarding the different isomers of mdma and how they can shift how the experience feels. A few theories were in discussion and some others were that people have simply lost the magic because mdma is just mdma at the end of the day and another interesting one was that the precursors have changed.

I'm personally in favour of the isomer ratios and the precursors used in the synthesis masking the real magic.

MDMA is no longer being mass produced with safrole since the treaty ban around a decade ago.

Would be interested to see where everyone's current thoughts are because I tried some mdma recently after not taking any for a few years and it was almost similar to what I was getting in the early 2000's. Definitely a lot better than what was circulating 2012-2015.

If you simply read back the last 20 pages or so, you will find your answer. There has been a lot of REAL movement in here lately. Please take a note.

scatterday · Oct 25, 2019

Began at page 120 and I have some extremely interesting topics to add to the thread, It's going to be a large multi quote message so I apologise in advance. Running pillreports over the years has allowed me to observe the decline of mdma/ecstasy and it's psychoactive effect qualities we all love and remember.

My next message will be samples tested on edata of ecstasy test results and pillreports user reports of pills that were circulating that I recall very well that were most definitely this magic mdma. I could never forget them.

Some observations I have made locally here in Australia coincide with the worlds (Or at least most definitely Australia's mdma/ecstasy drought) perfectly with the safrole treaty that was signed around the year 2008 and prohibited the production, exportation and importation.

I still am strongly in favour of the idea of alternate synthesis routes being used which is why we see and have access to an abundance of this new mdma worldwide. A drug that was almost non existent that suddenly floods the market is an obvious sign that precursors and the synthesis has been altered. This should be the number one focus and process of elimination to start from.

How was mdma synthesised prior to the 2008 safrole treaty ban?
What precursors are being used currently?
What precursors were being used before?
Isomer ratios?
Byproducts remaining in the synthesis that may or may not be psychoactive at minuscule doses or non psychoactive substances that someway or another played a part in how mdma binds to serotonin transporters and other neurotransmitters?

As safrole oil is now almost impossible to obtain and highly monitored chemists have found other routes to synthesise mdma that is not only easier, The yields are higher, More time efficient but there's also less risk of authorities monitoring precursors that are being trafficked.

It was stated in here earlier there are differences in the isotopes of mdma when derived from safrole and if there are minor differences like that you can only suspect there are minuscule amounts of psychoactive or non psychoactive byproducts left over in the synthesis which may play a part in the magic we all remember.

Until somebody can confirm they have both safrole derived mdma and non safrole derived mdma then compare them to one another by consuming them this theory of safrole can't be discredited or eliminated.

Of course the synthesis routes are going to play a part in the desirable psychoactive effects we want to return.

Glubrahnum said:
Let's make something clear first. The small difference in the isotopic content of MDMA, or its precursors, will not make that psychoactive difference. The difference can be caused by some potent microcontaminant related to the petrochemical precursor or something specific to the synth method, which involves that type of precursor, but not the isotopic variation in the precursor itself.

Theoretically, the racemic 3,4-MDMA·• HCl made from a plant-based precursor should be chemically identical to the racemic 3,4-MDMA·• HCl made form a petro-precursor. Theoretically...

In another post I see that there was discussion regarding psychoactive impurities/byproducts that remain in the synthesis of the final product that can alter the experience, Why would it be so far fetched to believe that the isotopic variation could be the same causing a difference in psychoactive effects?

Have you experimented with safrole derived mdma first hand and non safrole derived mdma?

We're not talking about a huge difference, Use a DMT breakthrough as an example. The mdma that currently is in circulation being mass produced by the Dutch feels like a DMT trip without the breakthrough. There's still entactogenic effects. Though the mdma we all remember and discuss openly here is like breaking through. You know it's a breakthrough experience once you've consumed it and post experience.

Everything feels different about it but when looking at it from a honest point of view there's not that much of a difference but you can most definitely differentiate the two.

Oldschool mdma= DMT breakthrough (Profound, Beautiful, Blissful and memorable)
Dutch mdma= Sub breakthrough dose and the effects are just toned down significantly

Glubrahnum said:
An experiment on virgin users or long-time abstinents would yield data, that could not be dismisses off-hand on the basis of tolerance buildup.

You'd have to sit in on this. If you do, please limit the dose to 1.5mg/kg of body weight on an empty stomach and dissolve it in orange juce for consumption (to eliminate the crystalline polymorph variance). Note the come up time and duration and severity of comedown.

Please pay attention to pupils (mydriasis), jaw (trismus) and heart rate (pulse) ...besides the psychoactive effects, of course.

Don't let them overheat or drink huge amounts of pure water...but I guess, you already know that.

I hadn't consumed mdma in years until recently, I wanted to hug, kiss, touch caress everyone around me but I know it's still not the oldschool magic mdma. The dose I took was still absurd and my scatterday still felt different than what I remember. I experienced elevated heart rate, Mydrasis, Bruxism and elevated blood pressure.

I had a minor afterglow but the hangover effects felt very different than what I remember still.

Glubrahnum said:
When exactly has the crystal MehMDMA started to appear?

2008 globally, Which coincides perfectly with the safrole treaty that was signed and the influx of piperazine flooded all the major markets in the world.

me.and.emma said:
personally I have felt no difference between being not on, and being on various forms of hormon BC and using mdma.

But then again every woman's body is different how it reacts on BC. I mean some would complain about mood swings, that I am sure involves some serotonin.

Is it a possibility for you to switch to non-hormonal BC and see if it effects your rolls?

When my mom when into the change they offered her a SSRI or estrogen replacement. It definitely points to the fact that estrogen affects serotonin in some or other ways.

Women tend to need less of mdma as well I have noticed. Could this be related that we have estrogen and men not?

It's certainly very interesting subject, I will want to learn more about it and please if you have info could you share this via private msg with me?

A very interesting statement that has some merit to it, When I consumed the mdma recently after a 2 year hiatus I was not long before injecting testosterone for bodybuilding purposes, My diet was clean (No refined sugars or Carbs) but getting back to the point supra-physiological doses of testosterone and below aromatise into estrogen for men hence the need for an aromatase inhibitor.

When my estrogen was high and low I noticed serotogenic effects on both ends of the spectrum. Both low and high affected my mood in a negative way.

So estrogen is related to serotonin and I strongly believe this. Expanding on that subject I believe my estrogen was high during my roll and it affected it somehow. Not extremely high but just outside of the normal range.

oldskoolbee said:
old hive bee here, some bluelight user pointed me to this thread. Won't be around much but here my input that you might appreciate and therefore a start to work on.

It's called cooking remember? different cooking recipes and procedures results in different outcomes.

you can cook a nice chunk of meat in the microwave and then sear it with a blow torch, appearance and smell will be awesome, but taste and texture (the pleasure) won't be anywhere near as a proper, slow, oven cooked roast.
same goes for chemicals, certain routes just don't produce what's expected or it is of inferior quality.

Leuckart: high quality "MAGIC" mdma plus side products as mda, stimulating, best for clubbing, work intense/time consuming synth, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience

AL/Hg and NaBH4 reduction: best for cleanest "MAGIC" MDMA, milder than Leuckar but more intimacy and sensuality, psychedelic in it's way, work intense/time consuming, specially NaBH4, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience

Pt/Pd hydrogenation: worst product of all, this is your mehMDMA. Very little labour involved, high yielding, once the reaction is set it's just a matter of waiting for completion. Add this to the use of higher mass producing acids as tartaric or citric for the salting and here you have your 300 mg tablets that give the crappy, boring experience that is so common today.

Also: PMK synth has its weak points. In the Hive times people were experimenting with alternate routes to produce pmk from safrole, O2/Wacker was one of them, quickly abandoned because the resulting ketone was inferior and the amine derived from it was weaker and missing what makes mdma special.
So chinese PMK glicidate might be also partially responsible for the missing effects of today's crappy mdma.

So just to clear (or confuse) a bit further: magic and meh are actually the same substance from a formula point of view, that's why no test can detect or differentiate the one from the other.
Why the two produce so different effects? no idea, my experience in pharmacokinetics is very limited.

I feel like this is the answer, The answer has been in front of our face the whole time. The difficulty now is trying to prove this statement is correct. How can one obtain mdma derived from multiple synthesis routes to experiment with so see if there are any psychoactive differences (Extremely likely)

TripSitterNZ said:
@epic11

Are any of those batches meh? I know some people avoid mdma that just goes straight to black.

Reports from the 90s indicated and early 2000s indicate good product should go to a purple then to black.

Your right batch looks like it might be the type of mda/mdma. But going straight to black is common amongst people saying those batches are meh. In 2009 i tested some mdma and remeber it going through a colour change to purple darker purple then to black

I do have some mdma I believe to be good, Definitely not the magic oldschool mdma we all remember but I'd be intrigued to see how it would stand up on a reagent test. As far as I'm aware it came from a small time chemist and this batch wasn't mass produced.

It's still lacking quite a bit of magic but it's been the best I've tried in at least 10 years by a long shot.

I'm going to organise another test kit then report back with my findings.

G_Chem said:
@Hilopsilo - My conclusions come from my research not what MDMA I’ve taken.. Mostly taken from the Hive, as this conversation is old as time. As the other old school bee basically confirmed what I’ve BEEN saying... I’ve described those effects before.

Even since the time of the Hive certain synthesis routes provided a reliable product everyone loved, others were lackluster. For example, as the other guy said ketone made from O2 Wacker often aminates to a weaker product than that made by Benzoquinone/PdCl2. This has been reported many times before. I suggest you do yourself some research and you’ll likely come to the same conclusions...

And believe it or not there may be some people in this conversation that have tried their hand at MDMA synthesis once or twice, not me of course but I’m sure some people in the distant past.

Also if we are to discount others festival observations then let’s throw yours out too.

-GC

Once again another opinion that solidifies the statement made regarding different synthesis routes. Something I'm still strongly in favour of.

scatterday · Oct 25, 2019

Deleted member 521610 · Oct 25, 2019

just finished off the last of my mda/mdma crystal mix was very loving with old friends comedown is very harsh though. Had been two months since my last roll this time i think the crystal was even better than the last few times i had done it maybe due to taking a better break but i also now believe set and setting can influence a degree to how much magic mdma can put out.

Snorted a 140 mg line myself felt a good loving social vibe emphatic and opening up for a good 4 hours with more stimulation and europhic feeling lasting up to 6 hours. Comedown is rough compared to just the pure mdma presses i have done over the years. I never have liked mda comedowns and i really wish i had a bunch of benzos to ride it out this time around. My comedowns last alot longer than most people due to lifetime abuse which almost makes it not worth it to roll i feel afterwards but in the moment i always love it. Had some very insane sleep paralysis drifting off voices etc very vivid very dark and intense images making it hard to sleep jolting me awake during that phase.

indigoaura · Oct 25, 2019

@TripSitterNZ Those sleep paralysis states are reeally valuable for meditation/astral projection/ remote viewing. If you have any interest in those types of things, that state is very easy to work with.

Deleted member 521610 · Oct 25, 2019

indigoaura said:
@TripSitterNZ Those sleep paralysis states are really valuable for meditation/astral projection/ remote viewing. If you have any interest in those types of things, that state is very easy to work with.

i practice meditation daily which pays off when im doing combos and pushing myself to the edge of insanity so i can float downstream. been three days since i dropped i don't take 5htp on comedowns anymore but just a multi vitamin and trying to get rest in. I smelt the product i had this time was a bit of a root beer smell just light tan crystal that was more white when crushed up snorting kicked in within 15 minutes and a rush of love and rolling lasted for a good duration. I am certain the magic can never be lost even during abuse if the product is good enough it will hit you still.

+96+ · Oct 25, 2019

heatlessbbq said:
MDMA was legal before 1985?

What is the history of MDMA? | National Institute on Drug Abuse

MDMA was developed by a German pharmaceutical company in 1912. Originally known as “Methylsafrylaminc,” it was intended as a parent compound to synthesize medications that control bleeding, not to control appetite as is often incorrectly cited.33,34

www.drugabuse.gov

Since it got scheduled in 1985 I guess it was legal before then.

heatlessbbq said:
Thanks for answering back, guys.

I wouldn't take it too personally. And besides if you really wanted to find out a quick google is how I got the information above.

Much love.

heatlessbbq · Oct 26, 2019

heatlessbbq said:
Thanks for answering back, guys.

Hilopsilo · Oct 26, 2019

scatterday said:
We're not talking about a huge difference, Use a DMT breakthrough as an example. The mdma that currently is in circulation being mass produced by the Dutch feels like a DMT trip without the breakthrough. There's still entactogenic effects. Though the mdma we all remember and discuss openly here is like breaking through. You know it's a breakthrough experience once you've consumed it and post experience.

Everything feels different about it but when looking at it from a honest point of view there's not that much of a difference but you can most definitely differentiate the two.

Oldschool mdma= DMT breakthrough (Profound, Beautiful, Blissful and memorable)
Dutch mdma= Sub breakthrough dose and the effects are just toned down significantly

Not a bad way to put it, if it wasn't for the crappy stuff having intensities that the good stuff doesn't have to the same extent, I'd chalk all this up to it just being less potent/weaker.

With DMT, yeah sub breakthrough is just a lower dose, but just due to the nature of DMT, the not-quite-there doses are intense in ways the breakthrough isn't even. TBH I've never on purpose taken a "sub-breakthrough" dose of MDMA, but I've always entertained the possibility that my "meh" experiences were simply due to not quite hitting that threshold, due to various reasons, resulting in an experience thats just perceptually more intense in some aspects; just like sub breakthrough DMT is. The magic stuff I had *did* test as more potent, if only slightly, could that have tipped the scales? Maybe, I can't say for certain not. Theres certainly evidence for and against this.

As well, I've never heard much good about "sub-roll" MDMA doses, and it has always been described as an all-or-nothing experience.

Random but in a couple months will be 10 years since my first roll, I tried to count the other day and I believe I've rolled about 40-45 times in total. The amount of time between my rolls always makes looking back and trying to compare experiences difficult, also since at least half, maybe 60%, of my rolls have been in combination with highly varying doses of LSD, but ALWAYS 100mg of MDMA, still does the trick if its the magic stuff.

OrbitalCombustion · Oct 26, 2019

Had some Topenkopfs from Amsterdam recently, good feeling but no magic. The Shulgin-magic is gone. I had some at Burning Man last year, what a fucking disappointment, pretty sure it was MDA pawned off as MDMA.

@scatterday - I wholeheartedly agree that an isomer is to blame, its all about sources. The same thing has occurred in meth and even alprazolam. The ingredients are different and thusly the magic ripped from our eager minds.

Deleted member 521610 · Oct 26, 2019

MDA is just as magic as mdma and is best in combo. I have my own experince with a same batch of crystal giving magic rolls and non magic rolls i had it for over 8 months making me wonder if mdma ages like fine wine aswell somehow? probably not but i believe set and setting plays a huge more roll in this magic feel of mdma than most people think.

scatterday · Oct 26, 2019

The LSD synthesis is another one they've been cutting corners with. People often talk about rose tinted glasses but it's definitely not the case especially when there are users worldwide agreeing on this topic.

The isomer ratios are directly tied to the synthesis too, In my honest opinion oldskoolbee explained the exact issue. It can't be anything else, It's the most obvious thing.

ThreePointCircle · Oct 26, 2019

Ok, I'm trying out some improvements. @vecktor I got the freebase as per your instructions and used a glass capillary to apply. I tried a 3:1 MEK:Heptane mix, and also tried acetone.

Results aren't great, I don't know if this is me messing up the freebase bit, or the solvent mix or anything else. @Glubrahnum I haven't got the filter yet but I processed it and those are included below (the bluer ones). I was using Gimp 2 which I don't know very well so I guess I could have done better but it kinda looks ok.

Should I just keep working on getting a better mix of solvents or am I doing anything else wrong? I see in those documents you linked to @vecktor about solvents to try - I just need to get hold of them.

Rectify · Oct 27, 2019

It's Probably Counterfeit.

G_Chem · Oct 27, 2019

Alright I haven’t been in in awhile, pages and pages behind... But someone on Reddit analyzes their MDMA to find it contained MDDMA as well as MDA I’m fairly significant yet still minor quantities.

Now this would result from using homemade impure methylamine which contained dimethylamine and ammonium chloride as impurities.

What was interesting though was this...

“Haven't tried it yet. But based on peer reviews, apparently it's good. People indicating that it's a "clean high". Smooth come up, euphoric and a lot of the "I want to hug everyone" type of feelings. I'll try it in early Nov and report back with the results.
I also got it tested at another lab and it came back with MDMA with 5% mannitol (sugar alochol). The other lab didnt detect the MDDMA which was interesting. Seems like there are inconsistencies with the FTIR analysis.”

Two completely different results from two different labs. These guys are far from on point in their analysis, lots of shit is obviously getting missed now that I see this.

This is your proof lab results can’t be trusted..

-GC

G_Chem · Oct 27, 2019

If someone wants to catch me up I’d love you for it lol. Otherwise I’ll get to reading it soon..

-GC

Hilopsilo · Oct 27, 2019

G_Chem said:
If someone wants to catch me up I’d love you for it lol. Otherwise I’ll get to reading it soon..

-GC

Found this https://www.researchgate.net/public...ethylamphetamine_in_clandestine_ecstasy_pills

and this http://www.icadtsinternational.com/files/documents/2007_271.pdf

In 2007, out of 28 different MDMA samples tested for regioisomers, 9 contained "high" levels of one or more regioisomers. Study even suggests testing centers are likely to overlook this...

The study doesn't go into as much detail as I'd hoped, but this does make it easy to understand, pretty short and easy read. First piece of evidence that regioisiomers have in the past been identified in MDMA samples (as likely accidental byproducts of less than ideal uncontrolled synthesis circumstances).

Was thinking about reaching out to the people who conducted the study and see if they have any other notes on this that go into specifics.

babooon87 · Oct 27, 2019

Got some serious Meh-DMA yesterday. The crystals were clear and looked exactly like the crystal methamphetamine I bought a few weeks before. Almost wished it was meth. Meth is many folds more magical and empathogenic than that Meh stuff that was ,at a staggerind dose of 300 mgs, just a weak, long drawn out empty shell of a distant memory of a roll. An experience so hollow and insipid I dont remember what I did while on it. I think I was just sitting on my bed staring at the wall for the entire night with a mind so blanc and empty I could have been in a coma and it would have been the same experience. No energy but also couldnt sleep. No real comedown ( i mean yo have to at least go up a bit to come down ). Just an annoying fever like body overheating feeling that almost remind me of the glorious piperazine years. Almost miss the meth-bombs of the early 2000,s. How spoiled were we to complain about some meth in our pills... But again, how could we even in our wildest dreams predict the twisted turn we find ourselves in right now that the actual real product is worse than the adulterated copy cats.

Rectify · Oct 27, 2019

MDMA should NOT be recrystallized. It's not shards!!!!

What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

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