What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[me.and.emma]

It means that plant-based precursors can be distinguished from precursors derived from petrochemicals. This is done with isotopic analysis of carbon atoms. Their beta radioactive decay differs between isotopes.

This is useful for prohibition agents who want to determine the origin of the precursors during their investigations.

This could also be useful for answering the question posed by this thread, if the "Meh-MDMA" can be strongly correlated with one type of precursor.
Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment for carbon isotopic analysis.

I feel we are onto something very crucial here. I bet the new mehmdma is not plantbased. And that's where the whole difference lays, right at the beginning of the process. I recall now talking to an old dealer, that has been in the business for 25 years, about 3 years ago and he said something about synthetic and natural mdma and that's it's nearly impossible to get the natural version now. He obviously knew something. The question is now who could test carbon isotopic analysis?

 

[epic11]

I feel we are onto something very crucial here. I bet the new mehmdma is not plantbased. And that's where the whole difference lays, right at the beginning of the process. I recall now talking to an old dealer, that has been in the business for 25 years, about 3 years ago and he said something about synthetic and natural mdma and that's it's nearly impossible to get the natural version now. He obviously knew something. The question is now who could test carbon isotopic analysis?

That makes total sense. Anyone who has changed their diet from a chemical synthetic gmo laden diet to a clean organic from the earth natural diet, would understand this. I still think the loss of safrole is the biggest thing going on here. Maybe all the saffrole post ban, has only recently (in the last 3-5 years) been used all up, and NOW we are seeing tons of pmk made mdma. Its really hard to say. But imo, ive only rolled REALLY HARD on stuff that stunk like black licorice strongly and obviously. Think about that.

 

[me.and.emma]

there is also a thing now with synthetic cannabis. Warnings have been out.

What are the effects of synthetic cannabinoids?

Many people mistakenly believe synthetic cannabinoids closely mimic the effects of marijuana, but there are significant differences. Although research is limited, preliminary studies suggest that effects include:

www.drugpolicy.org

so what has this to do with the mehmdma?
It looks like they producing a lot of mimicking synthetic products and selling them to us as the real thing.
our mehmdma being just one of them.

Note that with synthetic cannabis you have nasty side effects too, and it's missing some of the good parts of the natural version.

The demand for party drugs has increased tremendously over the last decade.
Is this the way they keep supply? with synthetic fake product?

Yes possibly, the young generation has no reference and can easily be fooled, while we get told we crazy, we lost the magic and burnt ourselves now. And sadly some of us believed this.

And as Epic11 mentioned it's already widespread in the food industry.


welcome to the future :/

 

[Glubrahnum]

I feel we are onto something very crucial here. I bet the new mehmdma is not plantbased. And that's where the whole difference lays, right at the beginning of the process. I recall now talking to an old dealer, that has been in the business for 25 years, about 3 years ago and he said something about synthetic and natural mdma and that's it's nearly impossible to get the natural version now. He obviously knew something. The question is now who could test carbon isotopic analysis?

Let's make something clear first. The small difference in the isotopic content of MDMA, or its precursors, will not make that psychoactive difference. The difference can be caused by some potent microcontaminant related to the petrochemical precursor or something specific to the synth method, which involves that type of precursor, but not the isotopic variation in the precursor itself.

Theoretically, the racemic 3,4-MDMA·• HCl made from a plant-based precursor should be chemically identical to the racemic 3,4-MDMA·• HCl made form a petro-precursor. Theoretically...

 

[indigoaura]

I don't even know that there has to be nefarious intent, just a desire to control a growing scene that was becoming unmanageable. When I came into the rave scene, it was right around the time that laws were being passed in the USA to convict the organizers of the party for crimes in the event that there were overdoses or convictions of partygoers. This was clearly a concentrated effort to shut down the scene. I don't think it is that farfetched to imagine that behind closed doors, other plans were made to water down the supply of MDMA in a way that would not be readily detected. The large labs producing most of the MehDMA and flooding the market may be operating with some kind of immunity, who knows. Obviously, it is a bit of a conspiracy theory, but I would not be surprised.

 

[me.and.emma]

sorry I am posting so much.
My head is turning so much over trying to connect the pieces.

Indigoaura said: "Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best. "

Indeed the rise of magicmdma created a huge change in party culture and electronic music styles.

When you look at what is produced recently electronic underground music wise, it's a lot of dark sounds. Many new dark styles have emerged.

Could that correlate to the mehmdma? you don't feel happy, euphoric, loving on it.
And people express what they feel in the music they make. It has always been this way. Music is a mirror of peoples minds.

 

[indigoaura]

Someone mentioned seeing a video of someone rolling who did not look like they were. Obviously, I would not post it here due to privacy concerns, but I have video of myself and others rolling from 2000 and 2001. It is OBVIOUS. It was "afraid to go out in public" obvious, much of the time. Now, I look at other people on MehDMA and you can't tell anything. I would go out in public on it with no concern whatsoever.

 

[Glubrahnum]

there is also a thing now with synthetic Cannabis. Warnings have been out.
so what has this to do with the Meh-MDMA?
It looks like they producing a lot of mimicking synthetic products and selling them to us as the real thing. Our Meh-MDMA being just one of them.

The problem with this theory is that a compound mimicking the 3,4-MDMA, would be routinly detectable on derivatized GC/MS and TLC/RS analyses. Different enantiomer ratios - not necessarily, unless chiral GC columns were used or polarized light in the RS.

Also, MDMA was always synthetic, i.e. it does not appear in nature on its own, unlike Cannabis.

 

[epic11]

sorry I am posting so much.
My head is turning so much over trying to connect the pieces.

Indigoaura said: "Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best. "

Indeed the rise of magicmdma created a huge change in party culture and electronic music styles.

When you look at what is produced recently electronic underground music wise, it's a lot of dark sounds. Many new dark styles have emerged.

Could that correlate to the mehmdma? you don't feel happy, euphoric, loving on it.
And people express what they feel in the music they make. It has always been this way. Music is a mirror of peoples minds.

Im heavily involved in dance culture, and this trend is real. When mdma was hitting the right way, people were all about that loving happy euphoric RAVE sound, now the ravers generally all like dark sounds. Pretty black n white to me. MDMA that produced kid like love = BRIGHT COLORED RAVES. Mehdma = A confused mindstate, why are we here = i dont like happy music anymore.

 

[me.and.emma]

The problem with this theory is that a compound mimicking the 3,4-MDMA, would be routinly detectable on derivatized GC/MS and TLC/RS analyses. Different enantiomer ratios - not necessarily, unless chiral GS columns were used or polarized light in the RS.

Also, MDMA was always synthetic, i.e. it does not appear in nature on its own, like cannabis.

You right of course about cannabis thing.
not a very good analogy I made.
What point I was trying to make is that a lot of products get made synthetic. Not using anything natural to start off.

Then if the isotopes things is so small that is makes no difference in psycho-activeness, what could it possibly be?
There IS a difference for sure.
And the theory with natural vs synthetic precursor sounds reasonable.
I am no chemist though, also have very little knowledge of chemistry.
What you say is word to me.

 

[Phobos]

The "safrole is crucial" theory does make sense, but it is really plausible only if either old or new precursors were producing a different result not distinguishable by GC/MS, as has been hypothesised before.
I remember the same happening with an impure precursor making pre ban Mephedrone "better" because it was producing 90% 4-MMC (actual Mephedrone) and 10% 3-MMC (a known analogue that is more of a rushy stim and less serotoninergic).
After the ban actual 100% 4MMC was available due to a different route and people deemed it inferior. But in that case the issue was discovered rather quickly.

I also wondered, would it be in any way reasonable to think that an impurity in MagicDMA could boosts the liver enzyme responsible for demethylation into MDA?

Im heavily involved in dance culture, and this trend is real. When mdma was hitting the right way, people were all about that loving happy euphoric RAVE sound, now the ravers generally all like dark sounds. Pretty black n white to me. MDMA that produced kid like love = BRIGHT COLORED RAVES. Mehdma = A confused mindstate, why are we here = i dont like happy music anymore.

Maybe, or maybe it was Ketamine and hallucinogens being used more compared to the past by music producers.
I mean you can't produce music while rolling for 20 years right? People that wanted to stay both realised it is not sustainable and also MDMA could have been a gateway for many other drugs that inspire different sounds.
And the music you make in your 20s and 40s is likely to be different as well.

 

[AutoTripper]

Note that with synthetic cannabis you have nasty side effects too, and it's missing some of the good parts of the natural version

That's a pretty huge understatement. If we knocked up a rough graph to show both real, clean Cannabis vs Synthetic, with 2 scales- how potentially good, and how harmful, they each are to the body....

Gosh, I'm just trying to think and come up with some sort of realistic image in my mind for helping the look.

I mean, we aren't talking like, synthetic is "twice as harmful" all that "real cannabis is twice as beneficial".

I dont know how to quantify it, we are off the scale in both directions, if you get what I mean.
Just- no comparison.

However, this is not the best analogy for the MDMA situation because MDMA at its very best is still an awfully long way from being "natural" certainly next to cannabis.

Not disputing or disagreeing with anything you are saying by the way @me.and.emma , just picking up on this point that's all.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Then if the isotopes things is so small that is makes no difference in psycho-activeness, what could it possibly be?
There IS a difference for sure.

Possibly it could be:

1) When very primitive tests are used (e.g. reagent tests) then there are too many substances, too list here, that can masquerade as the 3,4-MDMA:

2) When basic chromatographic/spectroscopic tests are used (e.g. underivatized GC/MS) then these 22 substances (...and their enantiomers), can masquarade as the 3,4-MDMA:

3) Only chiraliy-specific tests can determine the enantiomer ratio of the 3,4-MDMA. (e.g.: NMR and MS cannot do it). Different enantiomers produce wildly different psychoactive and physiological effects, but public labs don't report it. (BTW: It is difficult and expensive to synthesize non-racemic 3,4-MDMA from racemic precursors).

4) The salt type (e.g.: hydrochloride, phosphate, tartrate, citrate, oxalate) significantly changes the mass of the respective MDMA salt molecule and consequently affects the dosing very significantly and sometimes affects the pharmacodynamics/pharmacokinetics, too. The salt type is almost never reported by the public labs

5) Crystalline polymorphs can affect the pharmacodynamics, too. I have never seen them reported by any lab. These differences can be equalized by dissolving the crystals in water, orange juice, etc.. prior to consumption (some juices might be inhibitory though)

6) Even advanced tests can miss a low concentration of a very powerful microcontaminant that has a strong psychoactive/physiological activity, which interferes/inhibits some of MDMA's effects.

 

[indigoaura]

Could the variations in salt type be responsible for the differences in taste?

 

[G_Chem]

sorry I am posting so much.
My head is turning so much over trying to connect the pieces.

Indigoaura said: "Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best. "

Indeed the rise of magicmdma created a huge change in party culture and electronic music styles.

When you look at what is produced recently electronic underground music wise, it's a lot of dark sounds. Many new dark styles have emerged.

Could that correlate to the mehmdma? you don't feel happy, euphoric, loving on it.
And people express what they feel in the music they make. It has always been this way. Music is a mirror of peoples minds.

As someone who’s been in the scene for awhile, I’ve watched the music and vibe go from one of love, hugs and good vibes to greed, hate, aggression, etc.. This isn’t jaded raver talking either, I still fully enjoy music and the scene today and actually prefer lots of the music I find today. It’s just it seems a negativity has begun to seep into even the relatively underground scene.

My theory on this is beyond bad MDMA though. That’s part of it, but I believe (talking conspiracies) that it’s a constructed effort to devalue and delegitimize the rave scene. Just like the beautiful hippie/classic rock culture was mutilated and destroyed, eventually becoming the hate filled metal scene over time.

Over the past decade eyes, pyramids, and owls have become symbols that permeate pretty much every single show and festival you can go to. I’ve always gone to smaller events, but even little festivals (100-3000 ppl sized) are overran with this shit. Whether you believe in some organization running the world or not, it gets old to constantly be bombarded with this imagery.

I’ve also caught artists (after using reverse playback) beginning to slip in really demonic phrases that you can only catch if you know what your listening to. Tracks often have blood curdling screams, terrorizing noises and just all around seem to be designed to induce anxiety in the listener. These artists also, IMO, are often not that great yet somehow rise fast in the scene and gain huge following.

Now I understand the difference between inducing anxiety and building hype in a track, the two are different IMO. The worst part is the same artists always talk love and good vibes but their actions don’t line up at all.

Also at the bigger festivals these days you’ll find presses and LSD blotter with this same symbolism. So much blotter with all seeing eye and pyramids on them... (Often they feel different too. Hard to say with placebo but more hedonistic and less inwardly.)

There is definitely the possibility of some foul play. Or coincidentally everyone happens to think this symbolism is “super cool” at the same relative time, and we’re seeing the result of that?

Weird world we live in..

-GC

 

[Phobos]

Honestly I cannot know the intentions behind sounds and symbolism used, but I always loved the hardest and fastest styles of Metal and Hardcore and they always give me euphoria and tears of joy, happy hardcore makes me go like "meh, the amount of drugs I need to enjoy this will kill me 3 times over".
The negativity for me seems a logical consequence of observing and interacting with today's world if you are the raver type.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Could the variations in salt type be responsible for the differences in taste?

Definitely. See this.
Also, salts heavier than the hydrochloride, naturally explain the need for more massive doses and make economic sense because they artificially inflate the weight of the product.

Below are masses of various MDMA salts relative to the mass of MDMA Hydrochloride:

MDMA Acetate    111%
MDMA BiTartrate 117%
MDMA Oxalate    125%
MDMA BiCitrate  126%
MDMA Phosphate  127%
MDMA Sulfate    127%
MDMA Tartrate   150%
MDMA Citrate    168%

Note, that all of the relative masses of salts listed above, contain the same number of MDMA base molecules.

Also, different salts are generally known to slightly alter the pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics of the drug (e.g. see: MDMA citrate) but they do not produce wildly different effects, unless the racemic enantiomer ratio is unbalanced during the crystalization process after using a chiral acid to produce the salt (e,g, L-(+)-tartaric acid). However, this does not make economic sense since doing such stereoselective processes can lead to product loss.

@G_Chem
Could you quote some user experiences of MDMA citrate for completeness?

 

[G_Chem]

@Phobos - This is a very real possibility. It does seem as though some of the artists use it as a way of calling out societal problems and our oppression, but others seem more sneaky in their ways about it. And often many of these artists go from lovers talking about peace and equality to suddenly sporting pyramids and eyes while simultaneously talking about “getting that money bitch” or “fuck You I got mine” type shit. The personality and music style shift is usually extreme and very sudden.

In the end it’s hard to know unfortunately.. The world is a confusing crazy place.

@Glubra - So here are some links. Almost all the information on this salt can be found exclusively over at the old vespiary site.

First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg

First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg

www.thevespiary.org

400 mg of mdma citrate

400 mg of mdma citrate

www.thevespiary.org

Citrate Vs Hcl

Citrate Vs Hcl

www.thevespiary.org

mdma citrate report

mdma citrate report

www.thevespiary.org

In the end Mdma citrate could be a possibility.. It would explain the taste and the need for excessive dosages. It’s effect profile also matches to some extent. But wouldn’t labs that only test for freebase still see this anomaly?

-GC

 

[epic11]

@Phobos - This is a very real possibility. It does seem as though some of the artists use it as a way of calling out societal problems and our oppression, but others seem more sneaky in their ways about it. And often many of these artists go from lovers talking about peace and equality to suddenly sporting pyramids and eyes while simultaneously talking about “getting that money bitch” or “fuck You I got mine” type shit. The personality and music style shift is usually extreme and very sudden.

In the end it’s hard to know unfortunately.. The world is a confusing crazy place.

@Glubra - So here are some links. Almost all the information on this salt can be found exclusively over at the old vespiary site.

First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg

First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg

www.thevespiary.org

400 mg of mdma citrate

400 mg of mdma citrate

www.thevespiary.org

Citrate Vs Hcl

Citrate Vs Hcl

www.thevespiary.org

mdma citrate report

mdma citrate report

www.thevespiary.org

In the end Mdma citrate could be a possibility.. It would explain the taste and the need for excessive dosages. It’s effect profile also matches to some extent. But wouldn’t labs that only test for freebase still see this anomaly?

-GC

Hmm just reading the back n forth on those articles is interesting. Citrate salt causing the issues? Its almost as if the posters are describing mehdma in relation to the citrate salt vs hcl.

 

[Glubrahnum]

In the end Mdma citrate could be a possibility.. It would explain the taste and the need for excessive dosages. It’s effect profile also matches to some extent. But wouldn’t labs that only test for freebase still see this anomaly?

Any lab can determine the salt type easily - they just do not seem to care about it....nor do the public labs report it.
Hell, anyone could do some high-school chemistry in their kitchen and determine the salt type, if they put their mind to it.

BTW: I've mentioned the citrate only because it was the farthest away from the hydrochloride. Personally, I have encountered the tartrate recently.

P.S.
Thanks for the links to MDMA citrate experiences. Its effects seem a little different than those of the MDMA hydrochloride, especially the slower onset.