Deleted member 521610
Bluelighter
man magic mdma is a fucking holy sacrament opened my friends soul up for his first time. Intense thepary for him letting it out all from a place of love and acceptance.
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MDMA &
Empathogenic
Drugs
Welcome Guest! -
What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2
- Thread starter Le Junk
- Start date
Curious your thoughts on 5mapb. To me its much more on the therapeutic side.
unodelacosa
Bluelighter
To me 5-MAPB reminds me more of MDA than MDMA, but still lacks the same emotional impact MDMA is know for. I’ve even tried the Borax cocktail that’s suppose to mimic MDMA’s effect by combining 5-MAPB, an RC stim (2-FMA) and a small amount of 4-HO-MET. Nope.
Overall I feel like 5-MAPB is disappointingly lackluster, relatively speaking...
Interesting. I find it quite a reasonable substitute. Yes its not quite all the way there (the borax combo), but still quite nice. More of a cruisin down pch at 70mph rather than pedal to the floor in downtown LA (rip paul walker)
5-MAPB does vary batch to batch just like MDMA. Some of it is definitely “meh.” And I’m assuming there’s stuff in between.
I just have a hard time believing people who think it’s just ok, as I’ve watched this shit change lives on a number of occasions. It’s definitely better mixed with MDMA than alone. But I swear my first time on it was like rolling all over again. My brother and his gf at the time had pretty much burned out on MDMA and MDA but called me the next day saying the same thing.
Since 5-MAPB came into the scene, I feel it’s changed the roll game completely. Now it’s actually possible to roll all night long with it’s longer duration and steady effects/slow comedown.
If you don’t take it and feel like you just got a second chance at a first time roll experience than I argue you need to keep looking.
Also it’s not really MDA like, only the impure batch that I tried which was lackluster had that vibe to me. Zero visual effects at the dosages I’ve used, and I wouldn’t go any higher than 90mg.
The only MDA like part is the longer duration and the comeup is odd. 5-MAPB comeup can be a bit off feeling where you can’t talk much and have the impending feeling something is about to go down.
I’ve been using 5-MAPB fairly regularly since 2014 and am very grateful that stuff came into my life. If I had to choose between 5-MAPB and MDA as my MDMA additive from here out, I’d pick the peebs.
Some other amazing things I’ve seen it do...
- A girl was able to make some major ground on her past sexual traumas, by talking about it and reliving it while in that state of love and acceptance.
- A guy I know became a spiritual healer after just one session and majorly cut back on his drug use. Became a completely different person in just one night.
- Healing broken relationships or allowing broken relationships to end in an amicable manner.
I could go on and on. I honestly feel this drug has effects even MDMA can’t quite reach. I often wonder if it releases more oxytocin overall.
Needless to say I love the stuff
it can bite hard if misused but that’s for another conversation.
-GC
I just have a hard time believing people who think it’s just ok, as I’ve watched this shit change lives on a number of occasions. It’s definitely better mixed with MDMA than alone. But I swear my first time on it was like rolling all over again. My brother and his gf at the time had pretty much burned out on MDMA and MDA but called me the next day saying the same thing.
Since 5-MAPB came into the scene, I feel it’s changed the roll game completely. Now it’s actually possible to roll all night long with it’s longer duration and steady effects/slow comedown.
If you don’t take it and feel like you just got a second chance at a first time roll experience than I argue you need to keep looking.
Also it’s not really MDA like, only the impure batch that I tried which was lackluster had that vibe to me. Zero visual effects at the dosages I’ve used, and I wouldn’t go any higher than 90mg.
The only MDA like part is the longer duration and the comeup is odd. 5-MAPB comeup can be a bit off feeling where you can’t talk much and have the impending feeling something is about to go down.
I’ve been using 5-MAPB fairly regularly since 2014 and am very grateful that stuff came into my life. If I had to choose between 5-MAPB and MDA as my MDMA additive from here out, I’d pick the peebs.
Some other amazing things I’ve seen it do...
- A girl was able to make some major ground on her past sexual traumas, by talking about it and reliving it while in that state of love and acceptance.
- A guy I know became a spiritual healer after just one session and majorly cut back on his drug use. Became a completely different person in just one night.
- Healing broken relationships or allowing broken relationships to end in an amicable manner.
I could go on and on. I honestly feel this drug has effects even MDMA can’t quite reach. I often wonder if it releases more oxytocin overall.
Needless to say I love the stuff
it can bite hard if misused but that’s for another conversation.-GC
unodelacosa
Bluelighter
Hey same here. That’s not to say I haven’t been burned in the past on either fake shit or RC substitutions… That’s why it’s important to network so you can procure quality stuff in the future when some jackass puts out a few batches of subpar garbage. Cream rises to the top, etc.
There is a level of competency not just expected but necessary to complete the task of mass production. I cannot think of a motivation for the clandestine chemist to leave an impurity in their end product beyond sheer ignorance, apathy/laziness (doesn’t seem likely considering the risks involved but then again this is a fairly unpredictable demographic), and well, financially speaking I think it’s bad in the long run, but it’s possible for a short-sighted mass producer to make this mistake, I suppose.
At the risk of sounding all Ayn Rand here, I think the market tends to “correct” itself any time demand (and customer satisfaction) is not being adequately met. If there is demand for a product that is closer to pharmaceutical-grade quality/purity, then that demand will eventually be met in some capacity, and if executed with aplomb and tenacity, this kind of thing could raise the bar for quality MDMA all over.
Also, mass producers might be incentivized purely by profit, but they might not be… Clandestine, large-scale production of illicit contraband is usually not a risk taken lightly (there are exceptions to this, of course). Anyone taking on that risk has to have some level of passion for what they do, or be very talented at lying to themselves regarding assumed risk. Anyone checking a risk-vs-reward ratio might notice how batshit crazy and flat-out dangerous hustling illegal drugs really is. Or hell, even hustling legit Big Pharma style can be perilous – just ask Purdue Pharmaceuticals, L.P. … oh wait you might have trouble with that considering the $8.3 billion settlement from that Oxy case in 2019, their subsequent Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing in New York, and the fact three of their executives were convicted of criminal charges related to the case. Big Pharma = pill-milling, drug-pushing, law-breaking gangsters who use huge lobby money donations to Super PACs and soft money tactics to distract me from staying on topic, you see…
What is WolframAlpha.com down or something? Lol, I’m kidding, but they do have the BP of MDMA and MDMA.HCl, but I’m having something of a hard time finding a pure boiling point for what is for sure MDDMA freebase and not MDDMA.HCl. The original source I pulled from is The Shulgin Index. There is a way to infer what it should be at atmospheric pressure when recorded while under a steady, known vacuum. Gonna check some more sources and then reverse engineer if need still be. Either way, I’ll let you know what I find.
And still yet, to reiterate the point: if you’ve never performed a fractional vacuum distillation, just be aware that this will take hours and at least a few hundred dollars worth of glassware, stands, vacuum grease, clamps, adapters, thermometers, heat source, stirring source, vacuum source, Teflon-coated stir bars, vacuum tubing, and various other lab accoutrements.
I thought it was more like moving through gridlock on the Glenn Anderson Freeway but only because you’re riding a skateboard, so you still only average ~9mph, lol. (No it’s not that bad.)
So you’re consuming a full half-gram of a drug and this isn’t the least bit concerning to you? That is not an insignificant amount, you know, and with that kind of low potency, it isn’t attractive to clandestine producers either (less profit per mg).
It’s just my opinion, but your skepticism is still recognized and appreciated. Yeah listen I realize some ppl are taken with this drug, but I’ve given it ample opportunity across several batches/vendors/DNMs, and I still conclude it’s just weaksauce (to me) compared to real deal Holyfield MDMA. And you know how I know I’m right? Because you even admit that you’re referring to mixing it with MDMA. Didn’t you mention something about comparing apples to apples though, earlier?
This is also reflected in 5-MAPB’s associated binding affinities in the brain, which are notably weaker than MDMA’s. So I’m not saying that it isn’t active or that certain people cannot get something out of it. Let’s just try to set realistic expectations.
Then maybe talk to @Rectify about proper dosing. Big difference between 90 mg and 400-500 mg, isn’t it?
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Rectify
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Yes, But G_Chem Was Talking About
5-MAPB, While I Was Talking About MDMA.
I Took 125 mg 5-MAPB Once And Had A Rather Frightening But Thankfully Brief Psychotic Episode.
Also, 500 mg of MDMA is a bit much, even for me. 250 mg to 300 mg should suffice. However, it was not particularly scary. I just had to drink a beer. That's all.
5-MAPB, While I Was Talking About MDMA.
I Took 125 mg 5-MAPB Once And Had A Rather Frightening But Thankfully Brief Psychotic Episode.
Also, 500 mg of MDMA is a bit much, even for me. 250 mg to 300 mg should suffice. However, it was not particularly scary. I just had to drink a beer. That's all.
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The solution is extremely simple if the problem is with systemic contamination of the MDMA in the contemporary clandestine manufacturing. All that needs to be done is a development of a reliable in-vitro test for these contaminants that a user can do at home (like a pregnancy test).
Once a test like that exists and it is cheap, the users themselves will stigmatize sources of the meh-MDMA and force its manufacturers to improve the quality of their product by simply not buying the meh-MDMA ...or simply preferring buying magic-MDMA over meh-MDMA.
TLDR: Cheap & reliable meh-MDMA detector will incentivize manufacturers to clean up their act to maintain their profits (via basic capitalistic market forces).
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Have you stumbled upon the M-ALPHA-HMCA yet which can be generated from the Glycidate moiety during MDMA manufacture ?
Apparently, the conversion of PMK Glycidate to PMK does not have to be 100% efficient, which can leave PMK Glycidate in the mixture.
If this unreacted precursor is not removed completely by the subsequent workup, it can get amidated and its epoxy ring can be opened by subsequent reaction with Methylamine, generating M-ALPHA-HMCA as a contaminant.
A reaction with dimethylamine will produce another variant.
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ThreePointCircle
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Right, but how trivial is the development of that test? Say for instance it is MDDMA causing the problem. And assuming it may be only a problem at certain levels, how will a home test be developed, or perhaps more importantly by whom?
Urine drug screen (UDS) kits based on immunoassay methods can be cheaply manufactured en masse once the exact molecule is identified. There are such tests available not only for complex molecules like hCG but for simple ones like MDMA as well for $10. They can be made to identify any molecule cheaply and effectively. Their development cost is approximately $50k and the production cost is below $1 each. If you want to learn more, just Google them using these keywords and don't ask me about their particulars or economics any more unless you are willing to invest that kind of money.
ThreePointCircle
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Btw I asked Wedinos if they were able to detect and quantify MDDMA (when there's MDMA present), as well as those two other substances that have been shown to inhibit MDMA. No reply. I noticed on their twitter feed that, as well as people struggling to get past their form filling process, some were questioning why more substances weren't appearing in the analysis as they were convinced some should be. I think this may have been related to steroids or something (I can't remember now), and I'm not too sure on what basis they should be so sure to expect the presence of these other substances, but it's interesting that that is being asked of Wedinos by multiple people, and no replies were given.
otm
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YES! This is THE question me and my friends always talk about. The current mass produced MDMA is 100% definitely either not MDMA (MDEA?) or the changes in precursors that caused the drought are what changed the quality. I KNOW it's not a tolerance/setting/mindset issue because one NYE around 2011ish my supplier randomly got a batch of mitsubishis that gave me and my gf that special v v emotional, loved up, relaxed feeling where when you come up it's not just heavy rushes it's ripples of bliss for like 20-30mins and you start doing big sighs and yawning etc. This was after I hadn't seen/felt this special, nostalgic, magical, loved up feeling in 10 years and it was like seeing an old friend and you didn't even realise how much you'd missed them being around! I really don't think it's a purity thing either because I took a half gram bomb of MDMA crystal once and I came upi v hard and rushed hard but it wasn't as blissful or meaningful. That's possibly part of the reason pill dosages have crept up, along with different manufacturers competing with each other directly on the online markets, but if it was still the same contents I'm not sure if people would be so like "wow the new Nintendos have 350mg in them! that's ridiculous!", they'd still be around 100-150mg in each and people would double drop if they wanted to if their tolerance made it desirable. I definitely think the emphasis on strong pills is related to this issue.
So, I hope everyone is on the same page here. That the MDMA has changed in a way that's robbed it of it's depth and beauty. If you know, you know.
At the moment I'm really thinking it's to do with precursors and that E's made with safrole oil instead of PMK-glycidate are far superior. Because we know that that has changed. It seems far more believable than thinking all the MDMA is really MDEA or something as the manufacturers know MDMA is the most desirable drug in that cluster and that's what people want and it's very competitive. I've heard anecdotally that recently there was a dutch group who used some Safrole top make their comparatively small batch the old fashioned way. I think this was speculation but speculation based on the effects? These pills were the Blue Hearts then after that Blue Buddhas, the pill shape changed for some reason apparently, which doesn't make sense to me as it's bad branding, but the guy hadn't tried the buddhas that was an assumption based on the same source and dosage. The dosage was 180mg each. Did anyone try these Blue Hearts 180mg recently? Either way I know batches of the ecstacy pills we remember from the 90s and early 2000s DO make it to the street still on rare occasions and they are testimony to the truth of this issue... because it's not true that it's impossible to get Safrole Oil now. It's just impossible to get enough of it to feed the global appetite for ecstacy. So all of the huge batches from the biggest manufacture crews are made with PMK.
Thoughts?? Maybe what we REALLY need is some kind of cool street name for this true ecstacy, like "mega gurners" to sell them for a tenner each, or "high grade E's". There are siginificant unanswered questions though...
* Would changing 1 precursor really make such a HUGE difference to the effect? Chemically you end up in the same goal you just had a different starting point, right? All that should matter is that you end up with the chemical structure of MDMA without any other active chems left in it
* Surely if it's MDMA it's either effective or it's not??! and as you do some up hard and you get a feeling and experience so similar (altho def different) that it almost feels against reason and supersticikous to be theorising about this kind of thing lol BUT these manufacturers are gaslighting the FUCK out of us because that feeling you remember from the honeymoon days that specialness IS out there, at least occasionally
* To complicate things further I don't think I've ever had that special feeling or blissful come up off of MDMA crystal, even the best batches like the black crystal. The only time it did feel a bit like that was when I visited Liverpool around 2012 and MD crystal was a lot rarer up there, the local slang for it was "magic", a gram cost me £50 compared to the standard £30 down South. Also it was a lot more powdery rather than lumpy crystal. That MD did give me the special feeling too.
* Everything being related to purity of the finished product seems unlikely to me too, as to have SUCH a difference in the emotional/empathogen side seems strange. Purity issue + psychoactive cut/process remnants I'd be more likely to believe.
* So if it's not
*
So, I hope everyone is on the same page here. That the MDMA has changed in a way that's robbed it of it's depth and beauty. If you know, you know.
At the moment I'm really thinking it's to do with precursors and that E's made with safrole oil instead of PMK-glycidate are far superior. Because we know that that has changed. It seems far more believable than thinking all the MDMA is really MDEA or something as the manufacturers know MDMA is the most desirable drug in that cluster and that's what people want and it's very competitive. I've heard anecdotally that recently there was a dutch group who used some Safrole top make their comparatively small batch the old fashioned way. I think this was speculation but speculation based on the effects? These pills were the Blue Hearts then after that Blue Buddhas, the pill shape changed for some reason apparently, which doesn't make sense to me as it's bad branding, but the guy hadn't tried the buddhas that was an assumption based on the same source and dosage. The dosage was 180mg each. Did anyone try these Blue Hearts 180mg recently? Either way I know batches of the ecstacy pills we remember from the 90s and early 2000s DO make it to the street still on rare occasions and they are testimony to the truth of this issue... because it's not true that it's impossible to get Safrole Oil now. It's just impossible to get enough of it to feed the global appetite for ecstacy. So all of the huge batches from the biggest manufacture crews are made with PMK.
Thoughts?? Maybe what we REALLY need is some kind of cool street name for this true ecstacy, like "mega gurners" to sell them for a tenner each, or "high grade E's". There are siginificant unanswered questions though...
* Would changing 1 precursor really make such a HUGE difference to the effect? Chemically you end up in the same goal you just had a different starting point, right? All that should matter is that you end up with the chemical structure of MDMA without any other active chems left in it
* Surely if it's MDMA it's either effective or it's not??! and as you do some up hard and you get a feeling and experience so similar (altho def different) that it almost feels against reason and supersticikous to be theorising about this kind of thing lol BUT these manufacturers are gaslighting the FUCK out of us because that feeling you remember from the honeymoon days that specialness IS out there, at least occasionally
* To complicate things further I don't think I've ever had that special feeling or blissful come up off of MDMA crystal, even the best batches like the black crystal. The only time it did feel a bit like that was when I visited Liverpool around 2012 and MD crystal was a lot rarer up there, the local slang for it was "magic", a gram cost me £50 compared to the standard £30 down South. Also it was a lot more powdery rather than lumpy crystal. That MD did give me the special feeling too.
* Everything being related to purity of the finished product seems unlikely to me too, as to have SUCH a difference in the emotional/empathogen side seems strange. Purity issue + psychoactive cut/process remnants I'd be more likely to believe.
* So if it's not
*
Yes, for a sloppy chemist. No - for a diligent chemist.
Also, some precursors and synth pathways are more prone to producing synth byproducts which are harder to avoid and harder to remove.
That's true. But only decent chemists can produce pure compounds and even for them the purification steps can eat into the yield and profit. So bean-counters have the final word in the world of no accountability...
A reliable meh-MDMA test would hit these bean-counters hard. I wish I could see their greedy little faces when it does ...
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indigoaura
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Love how you described an authentic MDMA experience.
There seems to be a misconception in your post though about crystal and purity. Just because MDMA is in crystal form does not mean it is pure. I think it is easy to wrap our brains around the idea of impurities in pills, but harder to wrap our heads around impure crystal. A crystal can still be contaminated with other compounds or with synthesis byproducts.
Example here - https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=2644
And, as user666 said, it is not always worth it to the producers to lose product in an attempt at obtaining high purity.
So, the change in synth methods very possibly altered the ratio of synthesis byproducts in the product, and yes, some of those byproducts could be eliminating some of the effects of the drug. Theoretically.
Check out the second post of this thread if you want a summary of some of the things we have already discussed here.
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Would changing 1 precursor really make such a HUGE difference to the effect? Chemically you end up in the same goal you just had a different starting point, right? All that should matter is that you end up with the chemical structure of MDMA without any other active chems left in it
I had a known source of safrole based MDMA that was MEH
Yes, that is true when the chemist is dilligent - the end product is pure and the same
Yes, a change in 1 precursor can lead to a generation of some potent synth byproducts that are much harder to avoid and harder to remove by a sloppy chemist. A good chemist can avoid them or remove them, though.
For example, take a look at the MALPHA-HMHCA generation from the Glycidate moiety described here. Now, I am not sayin' that this is it, ...but a similar principle.
ThreePointCircle
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Interesting: M-ALPHA-HMCA paperHave you stumbled upon the M-ALPHA-HMCA yet which can be generated from the Glycidate moiety during MDMA manufacture ?
Apparently, the conversion of PMK Glycidate to PMK does not have to be 100% efficient, which can leave PMK Glycidate in the mixture.
If this unreacted precursor is not removed completely by the subsequent workup, it can get amidated and its epoxy ring can be opened by subsequent reaction with Methylamine, generating M-ALPHA-HMCA as a contaminant.
A reaction with dimethylamine will produce another variant.
So M-Alpha was first found in the uk in 2010 and now this HMCA variant was found in a package from the UK to S Korea. Always being saying the UK has been at the epicentre of all this garbage
...HMCA is just one example how a different precursor can cause different synth byproducts to appear in the end product, when that synth is done by a sloppy chemist.
If that byproduct is toxic or has inhibitory properties at very small doses, then it can affect the psychoactivity of the main product and be very hard to detect at low concentrations. For example my analytic gear overlooks anything below 100ppm.
There are many psychoactive compounds that are active in the microgram range - the best known example being LSD. Now, I am not sayin' that MDMA is contaminated with LSD, just that there are some potent compounds that are active at doses which are literally invisible to the eye ...and to many instruments, too.
If that byproduct is toxic or has inhibitory properties at very small doses, then it can affect the psychoactivity of the main product and be very hard to detect at low concentrations. For example my analytic gear overlooks anything below 100ppm.
There are many psychoactive compounds that are active in the microgram range - the best known example being LSD. Now, I am not sayin' that MDMA is contaminated with LSD, just that there are some potent compounds that are active at doses which are literally invisible to the eye ...and to many instruments, too.
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