What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[vash445]

Fair enough.

I just am curious to get to the bottom of this from a technical point of view I guess. At the end of the day: theoretically we’re talking about a substance and that has a particular molecular structure or formula. So assuming that such is a given: what else could be the problem (which I guess is the OP’s point).

A good exercise, purely from an academic point of view, would be to obtain said substance as manufactured by any one of those chemical suppliers that I mentioned above. But then some sort of controlled testing would have to be done so as to ensure that the placebo effect isn’t a factor. And I cannot see this being practicable unfortunately.

Other than the above there’s nothing I can contribute myself. I think I had one of these decades ago, do remember the typical and “correct” effects exactly as described by many here, but that was that i.e. not my thing and never happened again.

NMR is the only way or HPLC. I had meh and magic both tested via NMR and NMR can def tell the difference and has for me and my friends

 

[vash445]

I can link you to Drugs Data results for magic and meh product, but there is no data to analyze there other than the Drugs Data webpage (which does not provide much information).

Can your read NMR? At one point, we had a volunteer in the forum who offered to do NMR analysis, and I have one scan from a meh sample. His reliability, however, is a bit in question.

One of the issues we have had is that labs do not want to release the full GCMS data to us. I have a sample out to IEC right now that they are supposed to provide full data for, but I have not received it yet. Do you know of a lab that would provide this data if we send in samples?

You would need the 13C and 1H NMR . You would then compare the peaks to 13c and 1H below. A clean sample has no variation in peaks. I recently sent the last sample of magic and it was also clean. Sadly my friend is wrapping up his university and doesn't have access or friends to the lab like before.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286614859_Analysis_of_34-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine_MDMA_in_'Ecstasy'_tablets_by_13C_solid_state_nuclear_magnetic_resonance_NMR_spectroscopy

 

[vash445]

you been saying that for years lol and then you couldnt even figure out how to read a basic nmr graph lmao you have zero credibility

Fair enough but Actually I can now.

You would need the 13C and 1H NMR . You would then compare the peaks to 13c and 1H below. A clean sample has no variation in peaks. Can I do QNMR now?... no way

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286614859_Analysis_of_34-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine_MDMA_in_'Ecstasy'_tablets_by_13C_solid_state_nuclear_magnetic_resonance_NMR_spectroscopy[

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Fair enough but Actually I can now.

You would need the 13C and 1H NMR . You would then compare the peaks to 13c and 1H below. A clean sample has no variation in peaks. Can I do QNMR now?... no way

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286614859_Analysis_of_34-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine_MDMA_in_'Ecstasy'_tablets_by_13C_solid_state_nuclear_magnetic_resonance_NMR_spectroscopy[

1d NMR is a fucking joke and easy. 2d NMR is not even that hard but is required to acutally get a good idea of what is going on. HPLC is so much better for analytical chemistry.

 

[vash445]

1d NMR is a fucking joke and easy. 2d NMR is not even that hard but is required to acutally get a good idea of what is going on. HPLC is so much better for analytical chemistry.

Last batch of magic was ran thru NMR 13C and 1H , HPLC and MALDI 4/15/2020. I might beable to pull the bruker still. But I think we need the Meh samples more then magic at this point honestly.

pretty sure the first time ran COSY and TOSY as well. I dont have the energy to go back 350 pages for it.

 

[user666]

So how can one tell the difference between safrole made mdma and pmk?

If it is pure - You don't .

 

[user666]

Substituted methylenedioxyphenethylamine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Here is a list of substances that could possibly contaminate mdma through synthesis. And none of them are a million times more potent! There maybe something that Shulgin missed but I highly doubt it.

Yeah, but this is not an exhaustive list of substances and their inhibitory actvity on the MDMA's effects has not even been studied for most of them.
As, for Shulgin missing something, all you have to do is look two pages back in this thread to the compound I posted which can result from the glycidate moiety. (its potency has not been studied either).

The fact is that psychoactive compounds that have an effective dose which is more than million times smaller than MDMA's, exist. Although the ones I am aware of, are not MDMA synth byproducts.

So stop making simplistic conclusions basen on the limited data available, because the lack of evidence for existence is not an evidence for nonexistence.

 

[vash445]

So has anyone noticed a difference WITH MDA? There use to be lots of garbage made via helinol 1 pot. I don't remember my really fire batches of MDA. Except 1 batch looked like meth but reagent tested MDA. I did so much drugs I don't remember my mda that well.

 

[vash445]

Yes, But G_Chem Was Talking About
5-MAPB, While I Was Talking About MDMA.

I Took 125 mg 5-MAPB Once And Had A Rather Frightening But Thankfully Brief Psychotic Episode.

Also, 500 mg of MDMA is a bit much, even for me. 250 mg to 300 mg should suffice. However, it was not particularly scary. I just had to drink a beer. That's all.

250 mg to 300 mg should suffice

Magic mdma is 80-150mg. 250 mg of magic is not 250 mg of meh that's for sure. We have discussed needing large amounts is a sign of meh.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

So has anyone noticed a difference WITH MDA? There use to be lots of garbage made via helinol 1 pot. I don't remember my really fire batches of MDA. Except 1 batch looked like meth but reagent tested MDA. I did so much drugs I don't remember my mda that well.

Have tried MDA a few times (all dark market sourced), but not nearly as much as I've tried the MDMA. There aren't many online sources to be fair. All meh trash, albeit a bit more visual. Tbf, as I push the mg on the meh-DMA I get some of those visuals later on. I ascribe that to the mdma being metabolised to MDA and noticeable at the high quantities. So it would appear that whatever the inhibitory/sedating component is, it isn't affecting the visual MDA like stuff, but is affecting the euphoria, energy, etc...

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Another option for the mix: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2018.06.020

They offered users (in Canada) a test of their substances with the aim of checking for fentanyl contamination. They lumped MDMA and MDA into a 'psychedelics' group and didn't find fentanyl but there were quite a few substances in that group and only 141 samples.

Interestingly though, in the speed/meth group, in 256 samples 15 tested positive for fentanyl. I'm assuming this is some production line cross over issue but maybe fentanyl or an analogue should be added to the list of possible meh causes. Can't see why there's any more reason why speed/meth should be contaminated this way than MDMA/MDA.

 

[user666]

So it would appear that whatever the inhibitory/sedating component is, it isn't affecting the visual MDA like stuff, but is affecting the euphoria, energy, etc...

That would mean that the norepinephrine and/or dopamine pathways are affected more than the serotonin ones.
Incidentally, the norepinephrine pathways are responsible for pupil dilation with MDMA.

 

[user666]

Interestingly though, in the speed/meth group, in 256 samples 15 tested positive for fentanyl. ... but maybe fentanyl or an analogue should be added to the list of possible meh causes.

...especially the Fentanyl analogues, because some of them (e.g. Lofentanil) are million times more potent than MDMA and cannot be detected by most analytic equipment in very low concentrations.
Incidentally, they also cause sedation and pupil constriction.

I'm assuming this is some production line cross over issue...

Since this stuff is so potent that an invisible amount can kill you, an accidental production line cross-over or distribution line cross-over is possible for outfits that deal with both types of substances.
It is also conceivable that some brilliant businessman concluded that since opioids are so physically addictive, adding a little to MDMA will make it addicitive too ...and increase its sales.

On the upside, the synthetic opioids are so different chemically from MDMA that it should be possible to destroy them chemically while leaving the MDMA molecules intact. Are there any good chemists here that have an idea for such a selective reagent ?

 

[dreamsbeyond]

Have tried MDA a few times (all dark market sourced), but not nearly as much as I've tried the MDMA. There aren't many online sources to be fair. All meh trash, albeit a bit more visual. Tbf, as I push the mg on the meh-DMA I get some of those visuals later on. I ascribe that to the mdma being metabolised to MDA and noticeable at the high quantities. So it would appear that whatever the inhibitory/sedating component is, it isn't affecting the visual MDA like stuff, but is affecting the euphoria, energy, etc...

So you use crystal mdma now vs pills back then? How can you claim to know how pure mdma is supposed to feel like? From my understanding PURE MDMA has always been sedating. And that they added uppers to pills back in the day.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

So you use crystal mdma now vs pills back then? How can you claim to know how pure mdma is supposed to feel like? From my understanding PURE MDMA has always been sedating. And that they added uppers to pills back in the day.

I've used both. And while the old stuff having something in it theory has been posted several times, pure MDMA being stimulating and euphoric is a staple in the literature. This even includes papers like this one: https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0036476 where the stimulating effects of pharmacy grade MDMA was inhibited by duloxetine. In other words MDMA was stimulating, MDMA + duloxetine not.

 

[dreamsbeyond]

Yeah, but this is not an exhaustive list of substances and their inhibitory actvity on the MDMA's effects has not even been studied for most of them.
As, for Shulgin missing something, all you have to do is look two pages back in this thread to the compound I posted which can result from the glycidate moiety. (its potency has not been studied either).

The fact is that psychoactive compounds that have an effective dose which is more than million times smaller than MDMA's, exist. Although the ones I am aware of, are not MDMA synth byproducts.

So stop making simplistic conclusions basen on the limited data available, because the lack of evidence for existence is not an evidence for nonexistence.

You are correct there are compounds active in the micrograms. But mdma synth byproducts are not. And if they were and were going undetected and being consumed unknowingly people would be either dropping dead like flies or have huge overdoses and freaking the fuck out!
There absolutely is evidence of its nonexistence. Something that powerful does not go undetected period. Are you referring to mddma?

 

[dreamsbeyond]

I've used both. And while the old stuff having something in it theory has been posted several times, pure MDMA being stimulating and euphoric is a staple in the literature. This even includes papers like this one: https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0036476 where the stimulating effects of pharmacy grade MDMA was inhibited by duloxetine. In other words MDMA was stimulating, MDMA + duloxetine not.

MDMA - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Here is the literature and no its not. Yes set and setting can have an effect on the energy aspect. But pure mdma in moderate doses is relaxing and sedating, not energetic. In higher doses it can be energetic but not much more so. Good pills back in the day would put you in the ground eyes rolling to the back of your head. Just like pure mdma does today.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Ok so you've linked to wikipedia where the word stimulant appears several times?

 

[dreamsbeyond]

Ok so you've linked to wikipedia where the word stimulant appears several times?

The desired short-term psychoactive effects of MDMA have been reported to include:

• Euphoria – a sense of general well-being and happiness[13][24]
• Increased self-confidence, sociability, and perception of facilitated communication[6][13][24]
• Entactogenic effects—increased empathy or feelings of closeness with others[13][24] and oneself[6]
• Dilated pupils[6]
• Relaxation and reduced anxiety[6]
• Increased emotionality[6]
• A sense of inner peace[24]
• Mild hallucination[24]
• Enhanced sensation, perception, or sexuality[6][13][24]
• Altered sense of time[15

Yes it can in higher doses. And usually it's an unwanted side effect.

 

[user666]

You are correct there are compounds active in the micrograms. But mdma synth byproducts are not.

Not that we know of, but that does not mean that they don't exist.

There absolutely is evidence of its nonexistence.

Existential negatives are inherently unprovable.
Please understand this: "The lack of evidence for existence is not an evidence for nonexistence". This is a well known basis for a logical fallacy.

@indigoaura: I think the subject above is your forté. I'd like to read your 3¢ about it.

And if they were and were going undetected and being consumed unknowingly people would be either dropping dead like flies or have huge overdoses and freaking the fuck out!

What are you writing about?
1) Potent inhibitory/antagonistic substances
2) Potent toxic substances
3) Potent psychoactive substances

...they are not synonymous.

Are you referring to mddma?

No, I am not referring to MDDMA. MDDMA is not a very potent inhibitory or psychoactive substance.

Something that powerful does not go undetected period.

Actually, you are wrong. For example 100ng of a potent substance like Lofentanil in 100mg of MDMA is beyond the threshold of detection of most analytic instruments ...yet still active.
There might exist other substances which are not psychoactive nor toxic but have a very potent inhibitory effects. Similar to Duloxetine ...but more potent.

P.S.
^{Yes, Lofentanil is not a byproduct of MDMA synth., but it proves that potent and virtually undetectable substances exist. It is conceivable that an unknown potent inhibitory compound exists which is a byproduct of MDMA synth, which we have not discovered yet. Such compound does not have to psychoactive by itself ...or toxic.}