Yea what happened with all that and people’s money you took? Surprised you show your face around here but I guess most rollers are nicer than me.
Doubt everything this man says people, I know some of you are newer.
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What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2
- Thread starter Le Junk
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Yea what happened with all that and people’s money you took? Surprised you show your face around here but I guess most rollers are nicer than me.
Doubt everything this man says people, I know some of you are newer.
-GC
unodelacosa
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Most underground chemists don't have access to GC-MS nor analytical tools in general. As to services like Energy Control, currently they can't distinguish MDEA from MDDMA… so, there's that… You bring up a good point regarding the end product insofar as to say it should be pure if the chemist is experienced and knowledgeable in the nuances of the synthetic route being employed. For example, when isomerizing safrole to isosafrole, one typically refluxes safrole in the presence of a strong basic solution. However, the clandestine chemist should be aware that said reflux needs to proceed slowly and gently. Excess heat will result in cleaving open the 3,4-methylenedioxy ring, rendering a catechol, viz. a 3,4-dihydroxy-benzene compound to be more exact. Sounds like a similar deal for producing MDMA from a starting precursor point of PMK-glycidate. Also similar is the need to reflux in basic conditions, ha.
Fuck yes, it definitely can make a "HUGE difference" because a different precursor requires different procedures which introduce all kinds of variables, side products, energy and catalyst requirements, and so on…
In a perfect world working in optimal conditions with state-of-the-art equipment and all reagent grade precursors, reactants, catalysts and so forth… oh and plus educated, knowledgeable, and experienced chemists at the helm… sure.
However, we're talking about the underground clandestine chemistry demographic here, a motley crew of autodidactic half-maniacs, chemical genius lunatics, and tweakfaced meth-lab-explosion-cannon-fodder amongst a few level-headed-if-still-daredevil folks like myself who managed to stay alive long enough to retire from that career.
Just because some chemist started from safrole is certainly not a guarantee of any purity in the end product, as you're clearly aware, but also anyone who assumes this is naive AF, which I guess was your original point, so right on, I agree 100%.
Well yes and no. The problem is that even the good chemist—when working within the limitations of clandestine chemistry and attempting to avoid detection from L.E.—is oftentimes working in the dark, so to speak, vis-à-vis analytical lab testing and positive identification of any side products in the collective end product.
Yeah I agree, and I've been more or less echoing that same sentiment throughout this post – even if we narrow down the presence of a specific impurity like MDDMA, and we know that it inhibits the effects of MDMA, then ok, great. But that still doesn't conclusively prove the one compound in question is the sole contributor to the presence of a high anecdotal reporting of "Meh" MDMA experiences.
Relatively speaking, MDMA is a simple enough compound that there are numerous ways to synthesize its various precursors, including safrole, from even simpler compounds yet. It just takes patience, timing, and a dash of luck… like so many things in life… selah.
EDIT: (see below)
This is totally some personal beef between you two that doesn't belong in this discussion. Let's please agree to stay on topic and keep it academic and professionally courteous. No disrespect to you, @G_Chem or @vash445
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ThreePointCircle
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It's so frustrating. I feel that if we could get a few samples looked at by some of the authors of papers cited in this and the previous thread, we'd really start to get some understanding of what's going on here. But how to get them involved?
I feel we've exhausted the public services like Energy Control, Wedinos etc... They either aren't able to do a better analysis or aren't interested (or both). We have a body of anecdotal evidence saying there's something wrong, 3 byproducts in the literature known to inhibit MDMA, a plausible reason for a change due to changing precursors (via careless synth procedures). What we need though is detailed investigation by people who really know they're stuff to tie it all together.
Any ideas?
I feel we've exhausted the public services like Energy Control, Wedinos etc... They either aren't able to do a better analysis or aren't interested (or both). We have a body of anecdotal evidence saying there's something wrong, 3 byproducts in the literature known to inhibit MDMA, a plausible reason for a change due to changing precursors (via careless synth procedures). What we need though is detailed investigation by people who really know they're stuff to tie it all together.
Any ideas?
unodelacosa
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We already have some understanding of what's going on. Firstly, I assure you not all MDMA on the black market is this supposedly ubiquitous, sub-par, "meh" MDMA. So—as it goes w/black market contraband—there is a spectrum of varying quality. Until some official regulatory body or agency steps in to assure safety and quality standards are being met by professionally licensed manufacturers, this issue will persist. For that matter, the majority of cocaine on the black market is "meh"… not all, but most cocaine outside of Peru, Bolivia and Columbia is not pure. The same holds true for methamphetamine, even “superlab” meth from Mexican TCOs tends to vary wildly in quality and purity. Doesn't seem to be drastically different in Asia in terms of quality variance, but I'm speculating here and admittedly don't have stats in front of me on the Asian stimulant black market.
Secondly, samples are analyzed all the time and reports are published by various law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. DEA. They're getting the data they want and thankfully publishing it so the rest of us can parse through it and make determinations on how that data can be useful in alternative ways. But to the narcoswine, “addiction” clinic profiteers, drug-war nazis, NA zealots, and the Academic Industrial Complex™, they couldn't give a rat's ass about the recreational pharmacodynamics of MDMA. They study impurities as a way of identifying the same batch of a drug as a means of tracking its spread throughout an area.
Sure, there are academics driven purely by their passion for science, and there are psychiatrists out there who want new tools to help people, like guided MDMA sessions and the sort. But Big Pharma is looking into how to profit from MDMA if it can indeed be harnessed safely enough to treat PTSD, dealing with end-of-life anxiety disorders in the terminally ill, and other psychiatric/therapy-assisted uses like that. Once it's going through the legit pipeline, the pharmaceutical industry will be producing very pure MDMA, and it could raise the bar for clandestine manufacture. Sandoz set the bar high for LSD purity, so pharmaceutical-industry production of MDMA could be a beneficial thing in many ways…
Idk if this particular topic would appeal to the aforementioned authors – maybe so; maybe not… From the eyes of an institution, university, or govt. agency, why grant funds to a study of a thing like this, when its results would only run contrary to the establishment of legitimately produced MDMA.HCl for human consumption and medical benefit (but not intended for recreational use)? For users, conscientious drug dealers, and those interested in harm reduction, of course, this shit matters a lot. But it's vexing working within the establishment on these things, unfortunately, as many researchers can attest.
On a more helpful note, I reach out to researchers/authors of published science lit. papers all the time, and they almost invariably respond enthusiastically. If you ever read a paper's abstract but you hit a paywall, for instance, just search for an email address of the papers' author(s), which is usually very easy to find (many of them are .edu email addresses), and then ask them if they wouldn't mind sharing their paper directly with you. Most of them are thrilled somebody actually wants to read their papers, and it gives them direct recognition for their work, which is good vibes all around. At any rate, strike up some conversations with these people and see what they have to say back. Nothing ventured; nothing gained, right? Oh and then let us know what you find out, s'il vous plaît.
I agree, but I don't think it's for lack of interest on their part. Their business model is predicated on supplying a very particular market's demands. Then again, there comes a point where that pursuit might become prohibitively expensive to them should said demand for precision MDMA tests be only a small minority of the overall demand for their services in general… Either way, they seem genuine in their noble pursuit, even if their services leave a bit to be desired, let's just say.
Correlation does not prove causation.
But these byproducts are synthetic route-specific, and there are many ways to synthesize MDMA as well as safrole, isosafrole, MDP-2-P, MDA, MDE, MDDMA, etc. It would be hard to convince me that one synthetic route is so globally dominant that it accounts for a massive amount of a specific impurity going all over world map like that.
You're kinda conflating two problems here. Careless lab technique will almost always produce impure results. If a precursor is changed, then at least some part of the synthesis will need to change as well to account for this different starting point. With clandestine chemistry, this can be venturing into uncharted waters mostly because highly accurate analytical lab equipment is both expensive AF and difficult to procure without unwanted attention. Ultimately, the answer is to repeal all drug prohibition, globally, but that's a tough pill to swallow (ah thank you).
If you want something done right… well you know the rest.
ThreePointCircle
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Ah yes good point. For example, if we combine the Sandtner and Bonadio papers we can say with certainty that a known inhibitor has been found in mdma seizures. I'm thinking the next level is ideally to compare reported good vs bad product and see if there are differences that would account for the different effects, or at the very least test different bad samples and see if there are any common contaminants that, in the quantities present, would reasonably look like the problem.
True, yes I've found a similar thing. I'm just not familiar with the world of chemistry so wasn't sure what attitudes would be like.
I should be careful not to suggests motives. I guess its enough to say it looks like the testing services won't be able to help us.
Yep. I refer to these two threads as a reasonable justification to test the hypothesis - not that the hypothesis has been proven.
My experience is via uk (mostly) dark market vendors. I'm careful to try a different vendor each time and there aren't actually that many. I haven't tried them all of course, but I've tried a substantial fraction. Every time I get the itch to give it another go I'll pluck for someone different. So far, it's all been garbage. Now, everyone thought I was crazy when I suggested this last time, but as there aren't many vendors in the uk (on the dark markets this is) and the majority are basically claiming to be resellers of dutch product, I wouldn't be shocked if most if not all of the product was being supplied by a small number of producers in Holland. OK, I haven't got any convincing evidence of this, but everything reads like 'we're selling the same rubbish as everyone else on here'. I have a feeling that people that experienced bad product the earliest on here were buying from the markets, and usually in the uk or at least near. It is perhaps now propagating to be seen across the globe and via non dark market routes as well?
I guess, haha, but my lack of chemistry and equipment makes that a bit tough.
unodelacosa
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RELEVANT LINKS tidied up
- 1H quantitative NMR and UHPLC-MS analysis of seized MDMA/NPS mixtures and tablets from night-club venues
- Quant. NMR circumvents the need for analytical standards
- One sample's MDMA was 10% MDDMA due to synthetic route (nitropropene intermediate + reductive amination)
- A Study of the Precursors, Intermediates and Reaction Byproducts in the Synthesis of MDMA
- “[MDDMA] (a tertiary amine) has the same mass spectrum as its isomer [MDE] (a secondary amine).”
- “The compound did not, however, form a derivative with TFAA, showing it to be a tertiary amine and not a secondary amine.”
- “This compound could be the product of the reaction of dimethylformamide (DMF) and PMK where DMF is an impurity of NMF. ”
- “Verweij has identified DMMDA as an impurity in illicit MDMA manufactured by low pressure reductive amination.”
- An Evaluation of the Potential for Clandestine Manufacture of 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) Analogs and Homologs
- “The tertiary amine analog, N,N-dimethyl MDA, has also proved ineffective at the 160-mg level but may produce CNS effects at 0.5- to 1-g doses”
- The Characterization of Some 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenylisopropylamine (MDA) Analogs
- “The analytical data on MDA, six of its N-substituted analogs, and a number of related compounds will enable the analyst to conclusively identify [sic] these substances. Analysts using IR […] should be aware of the polymorphism exhibited by the hydrochloride salts of MDA analogs. Examination of the analogs as the free base, or in solution, eliminates this potential problem. Alternatively, IR identification of the hydrochloride salt in conjunction with GLC or HPLC retention times will permit the analyst to identify correctly the analog at hand. The PNMR spectra of the analogs are distinctive and will permit the rapid identification of these compounds. EI-GC/MS is less useful for the identification of MDA and the prepared analogs than it is for most classes of illicit drugs. The molecular ions have weak to extremely weak intensities. EI-GC/MS identification should be supplemented with GLC or HPLC retention times. CI-GC/MS results in mass spectra having substantial M+1 fragments.”
- PiHKAL Book II Entry #103 MDBZ – in extensions he mentions the difficulty of synthesizing MDDMA from dimethylamine
- Isomer Design – this is cool to look at
- Methylation of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine in formalin-fixed human liver tissue October 2005
- Postmortem distribution of 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,N-dimethyl-amphetamine (MDDM or MDDA) in a fatal MDMA overdose April 2006
- Custom Synthesis and Analytical Properties of 3,4-Methylenedioxy-N,N-dimethylamphetamine (MDDMA) June 1993
- LC‐MS/MS in the elucidation of an isomer of the recreational drug methylenedioxy ethylamphetamine: Methylenedioxy dimethylamphetamine September 2015
- Binding Mode Selection Determines the Action of Ecstasy Homologs at Monoamine Transporters January 2016
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unodelacosa
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And what exactly is your hypothesis? If it's that byproduct impurities in the U.K.'s MDMA supply is having an adverse impact on the qualitative effects of said MDMA, I think that sounds reasonable. Pinpointing the exact impurity with any degree of real accuracy seems like an exercise in futility to me, but hey, if it's possible then why not?
Ok so it's fair to say you're talking about a somewhat limited market then. What can I tell you, mate? Travel, lol. But srsly, visit Ibiza, Casablanca, Milan, Brooklyn, Dubai, Tel Aviv, Seoul, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Toronto, and/or Perth. Otherwise you're kinda stuck on those British Isles there, ya know?
MDMA is made domestically in the United States at least in some portion. Sassafras albidum still grows indigenously all through portions of the United States including for example in the Blue Ridge Mountains that run through Virginia. There are also new, natural resource precursor oils coming out of the northern portion of Africa.
ThreePointCircle
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I guess that. Just for my own sanity I would love the option to have one or more samples of what I've had thoroughly investigated. If an analysis that was trustworthy came back and said its basically mdma, everything else trace then I know it's all in my head and I can give up. If it comes back with substantial impurities then I feel that's the beginning of some way forward.
Limited yes, but I've yet to hear a credible report of a dark market sourced quality product - anywhere. And, on a personal level, the only people that I know that use drugs, get them directly or indirectly from markets so I've got zero connections to do anything else. I guess I could visit Ibiza but who am I gonna talk to? Don't fancy asking random people lol.
That's interesting. It seemed that members of these threads who were from the US and not buying online either have not encountered the problem, or only rarely, or only recently.
Wrong conclusion, because some of these "trace"-compounds can be million times more potent than MDMA so you will not see them but you will feel them.
ThreePointCircle
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Good point. I suppose you could at least rule in/out obvious. So if like 20% MDDMA was found then that would be suggestive of the cause. If there was nothing big like that then the task would be to rule in/out the small amounts as a cause but at least that would narrow it down.
Yes, a potent contaminant is much less likely to occur than a weak one. The ones that are active in the microgram and nanogram ranges are pretty rare ...but they do exist. I do not know of any that can "naturally" arise from a sloppy MDMA synth (more precisely: I know of many, but I do not know their potency). Potent contaminants which arrive with a dirty precursor and survive the harsh conditions of the synth, are even less likely. Also, it is possible that potent contaminants, which are unrelated to the MDMA synth, are added to the end product accidentally or deliberately. I know of only one class of psychoactive compounds which can fit the latter bill.
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indigoaura
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I am still waiting for a reply from IEC from my last email to them. The process of communication there is very slow, and hampered by a language barrier. I think IEC wants to help and is interested in supporting us, but this type of thing is not their primary objective.
Honestly, feeling a bit frustrated about all of it right now. Tomorrow is the 21 year anniversary of the first time I ever tried E. Funny, cause my first time was bunk, but I still remember the date that I made the decision to move forward with it. Would love to celebrate with a quality roll, but that is seemingly impossible when going through the DW. I think @ThreePointCircle is right that the supply is much more limited that it would appear, and prob flowing from several large distributors who all the smaller distributors buy from.
Honestly, feeling a bit frustrated about all of it right now. Tomorrow is the 21 year anniversary of the first time I ever tried E. Funny, cause my first time was bunk, but I still remember the date that I made the decision to move forward with it. Would love to celebrate with a quality roll, but that is seemingly impossible when going through the DW. I think @ThreePointCircle is right that the supply is much more limited that it would appear, and prob flowing from several large distributors who all the smaller distributors buy from.
dreamsbeyond
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So how can one tell the difference between safrole made mdma and pmk? Does pmk made mdma smell like licorice also? And what about mda,is it in the same predicament? It's made the same way. I haven't seen many threads about mda not being the same as it used to be.
dreamsbeyond
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When you are acquiring your mdma are you performing an acetone wash on it? What are your dosages?
dreamsbeyond
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Substituted methylenedioxyphenethylamine - Wikipedia
Here is a list of substances that could possibly contaminate mdma through synthesis. And none of them are a million times more potent! There maybe something that Shulgin missed but I highly doubt it.
I ordered safrole no questions asked in the usa. NMR and HPLC verified in quite bulk. If I can order it so can others.
MAPS uses piperonal. I know I saw an article on it but now I can't find it.
It's pretty easy to develop a few routes without piperonal or PMK. One route is using methylone but that is all I will say. I have a few other interesting ones.
TripSitterNZ
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you been saying that for years lol and then you couldnt even figure out how to read a basic nmr graph lmao you have zero credibility