What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[Jmoda]

Again, my bad, @Jmoda. To be fair, when I read it at face value I thought it was inconsistent with some of the other things you've commented with which I generally agree.


Obviously. I'm not adhering to any particular academic standards when I post either, no MLA format. I think the term "MDMmeh" > "MehDMA", but it's amusing nonetheless. However, I have to disagree, respectfully, that using the terms "magic" and "meh" are "diction that was born out of the conversation". Calling something unremarkable "meh" wasn't invented here and even Dr. Shulgin had a "magic half-dozen", so I get it, but Dr. Shulgin also wrote PiHKAL and TiHKAL, so he gets a pass, lol.

Anyway, yes anecdotal reports are important, but there's a limit to how many we actually need. I guess I understand some of the frustrations you yourself have mentioned in this very thread now.


Clearly. I'm hoping you're overstating the obvious for rhetorical purposes here.


Not sure what you mean by "our lingo". It is not unique to call a thing "meh" or "magic", and yes I picked up on the use of these terms.


Why are you giving me an ELI5?


Exactly. We're probably good on the anecdotes and subjective opinions.


I was thinking this when I first read that comment, too. I recall reading that 4-MAR is serotonergic from a good source. However, I have to disagree with your assessment of placebos – it's unreal how potent and ubiquitous placebos are, many of them right under our proverbial noses without us knowing (or up our noses more like it).


EXACTLY – wine-tasting has been debunked as pseudoscience monkey-garbage. Wine experts are all full of shit, whether they realize it or not → https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

Here's "The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts Across the Globe" → https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/08/the_most_infamous_study_on_wine_tasting.html

It was also on the TV show, Adam Ruins Everything → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PeKcWCC-tw

No one who grants money to research gives a fuck about anyone's subjective experience and their claims of personal accuracy and blah³. You can't just pretend the scientific method doesn't matter. It very much does still matter and for good reasons at that.


Makes zero difference, and your confidence only confirms your bias. Come on, man; you're smarter than this.


Gas chromatography-mass spectroscopy mainly followed by careful analysis of the spectrograph, comparing it to an analytical standard of the pure compound. Here's some literature on the exact subject, in fact:

"GC-MS studies on side-chain regioisomers related to substituted methylenedioxyphenethylamines: MDEA, MDMMA, and MBDB" → https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20875234/

"Chromatographic and spectroscopic methods of identification for the side-chain regioisomers of 3,4-methylenedioxyphenethylamines related to MDEA, MDMMA, and MBDB
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12841949/


This assumes said precursors are coming from an illicit source then, b/c no legitimate supplier would be selling List I chemicals that aren't reagent-grade quality. I've theorized that the chemists themselves are more likely to be producing their own methylamine from ammonia and methanol in the presence of a metal catalyst (something with aluminum, I think). Dimethylamine and trimethylamine are co-products; "the reaction kinetics and reactant ratios determine the ratio of the three products." The reaction kinetics most favor trimethylamine, though evidently dimethylamine is in greater commercial demand. (source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0920586197000035)

I swear I recall having read that there is at least one other major method of MDMA synthesis that results in these side products in small quantities; I think it's a method involving performic acid and also producing the impurity n-formyl-n-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine but I don't have any more time or will power to go looking that one up as well. I posted the link much earlier in this thread, so if you wade through enough anecdotes you'll eventually find it somewhere…

The wine tasting article is interesting and after reading it i am more compelled to refine my wording, but the point i was moreso getting at was more akin to a sommelier being able to identify the notes of a wine.

 

[psy997]

If you ask me, there's never been a better time to source drugs. You can order whatever you want from your computer and get a package in the mail of high quality drugs in a few days later. As for mdma, its always made me kind of cold and reclusive unless its paired with a stronger stimulant. I did mda at a rave a couple years ago and all I wanted to do was LEAVE. Mind you I had a great time once I got home.

It's a great time for drugs except for MDMA. I can get all kinds of quality substances online, but I have found good MDMA only a few times since 2016.

 

[Jmoda]

It's a great time for drugs except for MDMA. I can get all kinds of quality substances online, but I have found good MDMA only a few times since 2016.

At least there are high quality analogs available tho like 5mapb

 

[unodelacosa]

As for the set/setting and placebo arguments...there comes a point where that simply does not make sense as an explanation. When you have multiple people making the same complaints about a particular batch of MDMA (often across multiple events and a variety of circumstances), then it seems likely there is legitimacy to the complaints.

I wasn’t saying the complaints were illegitimate, just that we don’t have conclusive evidence (yet) to know why a particular batch is widely regarded as “meh”. I conceded long ago upon reading through the literature thoroughly, that you have a decent hypothesis here. It’s in my nature to remain skeptical, so you’ll have to forgive me if I question things. Hell if you read my last few posts on this thread I’ve been explaining the dual binding-affinity nature of MDDMA and I’m definitely onboard with your goals regarding this matter as recently summarized by @ThreePointCircle

Mostly I’m trying to point out that while anecdotal evidence brought this issue to light—a good thing—it is still not conclusive evidence. That part comes from establishing fact from speculation via the scientific method, as you’re well aware but others seem to still need that reminder.

 

[unodelacosa]

So how do you go about identifying which fractions contain the MDMA vs e.g the MDDMA?

I realized I didn’t exactly answer your question before. So first you’d probably want to be sure what’s in your matrix by having your MDMA analytically identified via chromatography and mass spec., then you’d separate the rest of your MDMA in your column probably using dichloromethane as a solvent and passing this over one of the silica substances mentioned in any of the articles I posted earlier. The fractions would need to be separately tested analytically in the same manner to identify what’s what. Let’s not forget, there could be other shit in your MDMA like caffeine. But then, that’s what the first analysis was for: identifying as much as possible in your sample.

But let’s say you were to hazard a guess. Assuming you have nothing but MDMA + some smaller amount of MDDMA and maybe some MDTMA, then the largest fraction is the MDMA. If you have GC-MS analysis run first, you should hopefully know how much of each substance to expect after separating them via liquid phase chromatography.

Do note: I’m referring here to working with the freebase oils of these compounds and not their HCl salts. You would need to gas/crystallize and recrystallize the MDMA yourself again. While this is rudimentary for a chemist, those without experience will probably find all the little steps involved to be vexing and/or overwhelming. Unfortunately there is not a quick fix for this problem, which is why I think ultimately the chemists producing MDMA have a responsibility to clean up this mess and refine their procedures first and foremost. Until that happens, vote with your money; don’t buy garbage MDMA and give honest reviews online and in-person to dealers explaining why you won’t purchase their bogus-ass, so-called MDMA (once you’ve tried it and found you and your friends had meh experiences, of course; try not to assume it’s shitty product until you can assay it). My proverbial $0.02 anyway.

 

[G_Chem]

If you ask me, there's never been a better time to source drugs. You can order whatever you want from your computer and get a package in the mail of high quality drugs in a few days later. As for mdma, its always made me kind of cold and reclusive unless its paired with a stronger stimulant. I did mda at a rave a couple years ago and all I wanted to do was LEAVE. Mind you I had a great time once I got home.

That’s just MDA though.. I’ve had many times on MDA where a crowded venue became the last place I wanted to be.

We used to notice on MDA, soon as you walk outside to the smoking area we’d be rolling HARD only to feel sober again right when we walk back in.

MDA is very much about social interactions and being around loved ones. Anything that distracts from that brings down the experience. Chatting mad shit til wee hours of the morning being a common occurrence.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Well my first thought was perhaps a very careful, arduous, fractional vacuum distillation. But it's likely the boiling points might still be too close. Let's see, I'm cracking open my copy of The Shulgin Index to look up the entry on MDDM (or as it's listed in the book, MDDMA).

MDDMA freebase's boiling point is listed as "85-88 °C/0.15 mm (Braun et al., 1980)".
Meanwhile MDMA freebase boils at "100-110 °C/0.4 mm."

Maybe don't totally rule that one out. However, in the same reference manual under the entry for MDDMA, it notes:



I'm thinking a proper chromatography column is what you would need. Not "high performance" or "GC-MS", just simple separation…

If column separation is too complex for a novice, let's talk about this boiling point difference. Any way to manipulate that to separate them?

 

[G_Chem]

If there’s enough of a difference in BP, fractional vacuum distillation will correct the situation.

-GC

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Will have like 4 magic pills soon this was a batch i last used in june last year.

idk when ill try them out though but it will prove that other batches still work on me and finally these newcomers will acutally feel the mdma lol.

 

[indigoaura]

Will have like 4 magic pills soon this was a batch i last used in june last year.

idk when ill try them out though but it will prove that other batches still work on me and finally these newcomers will acutally feel the mdma lol.

Definitely let us know how it goes. How many times have you rolled and felt the product was subpar? How long since you had a "magic" roll?

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Definitely let us know how it goes. How many times have you rolled and felt the product was subpar? How long since you had a "magic" roll?

just a few times. Last magic was in june last year on these same pills. Plus my lifetime usage is at 150 +.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

i will report back tomorrow i wont do it but my mate will be doing some and hes use to magic mdma aswell til this year and last year. And maybe ill give half to my friend who has never done it but i have a bunch of post grad work to attend to. its going to be worth the 3-4 hour round trip though the nights i had these same pills were amazing.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

experiment worked out this is magic mdma and my mate who use to do md alot said it was like the other mdma we would do for years til all this market collapsed. And our other mate was on md for the first time and had a magic amazing time on par with lsd in a good high.

But thats going to be the last of the magic stuff for a long time everything is either bath salts or really shit overcooked mdma.

 

[unodelacosa]

If column separation is too complex for a novice, let's talk about this boiling point difference. Any way to manipulate that to separate them?

I don't really know what is, and what is not, too complex for a novice. The difference in boiling points between MDMA and MDDMA (NOTE: throughout this post, I'm referencing the freebase oils of these compounds and not the more commonly encountered hydrochloride salts of said compounds which indeed have different—importantly, much higher yet still comparatively close—boiling points) is very minimal, and yet they are high enough to warrant use of vacuum to prevent scorching and polymerization/destruction of the compound(s).

Re: manipulation of boiling points – Vacuum removes atmospheres, and thus less energy is required to achieve phase change. So therefore melting- and boiling-points are reduced. But this also means there is even less difference now between the BPs of our compounds to be separated, and so: real care and precision must be used in conjunction with a properly packed fractionating column, a proper heating mantle with some form of mechanical or magnetic stirring, additional use of plumber's insulation with aluminum foil, and adequate tools to monitor heat/temperature levels. The process would take quite a while because the heat can only be increased a little bit at a time, and supervision is required the entire time to know when one distillate ceases to boil over, pauses, and then the next distillate begins. Heat can progress after a new collection flask is put in place during the pause here. Because you have things under vacuum you would be faced with either having a more expensive glass setup that allows you to change collection flasks without breaking the vacuum, or you would need to cool everything down to room temp, remove the vacuum, change receiving flasks, reattach the vacuum, and increase the heat back to where it was.

Do you see what I'm saying? It's not necessarily too complex for anyone. It's just hella labor-intensive and requires specific knowledge of organic chemistry lab procedures. And the amounts that most users will be handling are almost impractically small. I'm not saying it's impossible or not worth it, it's just perhaps a hard sell to most users due to the necessary investment in proper lab equipment, and the concern that this is functionally a lab now, and there are rightful fears as to how this could be perceived by others, not the least of whom could potentially be law enforcement. On top of this investment, there's also the needed willingness to sacrifice, potentially anyway, about a half grand worth of "MDMA".

Column separation might in fact be the easier of these two procedures given that you would not need to run a hot plate or heating mantle nor keep a setup under vacuum. I'm thinking, if sufficient water pressure is present for the would-be kitchen chemist, then using a metal aspirator connected to the sink running cold water through it might be enough vacuum to lower boiling points to prevent scorching but still maintain sufficient distance between them to conduct a successful fractional distillation. If one is willing to consider the air as being non-polar – after all, it separates from water – then really, a fractional distillation is a form of gas-chromatography in and of itself that is driven more by thermodynamics than by gravity.

Methylene chloride (aka dichloromethane, DCM) is not usable in any OTC form I've ever heard of, but it can be distilled from methanol and polymer goop from some OTC sources in paint removal products. My point here is that it will probably be necessary to distill DCM in order to obtain it for use in chromatography… In essence, either procedure has a high threshold of necessary commitment for most users and even for most dealers as there is no clear financial incentive for this, and the harm reduction potential is still unknown.

 

[G_Chem]

Stuff is still good out near me, got a quarter last fall that I just tried a bit recently and had an amazing time. My brother who’s normally a hard head claimed it was some of the best he’s tried. It’s been a long time since I rolled, and the comeup was next level.

Also @unodelacosa can you find refs or at least convert those freebase BP’s you mentioned before so we comparing apples to apples. Cuz from what I see you mention two different vacuum pressures for those freebases, and I’m not someone that seems to understand vacuum very well to convert.

Back in the Hive days they were very aware of MDDMA as an impurity yet still claimed vacuum fractional distillation worked to obtain a very pure end product.

If anyone can figure out how to convert those BP’s to the same vacuum pressure we’d have a better idea on the possibility of separation via vacuum distillation.

Atmospheric can’t be done as you said without a flask full of polymerized crap. But pretty sure the vacuum doesn’t need to be ultra strong, theoretically one could install a bleed line or turn down the vacuum to get it to a place where polymerization doesn’t happen yet the BP’s are far enough apart for proper separation.

-GC

 

[unodelacosa]

everything is either bath salts or really shit overcooked mdma.

Dammit man. Don’t be so pessimistic and Debbie Downer-esque. There is still very, very pure MDMA on the market; you just have to know where to look. Or you just have to know how to “cook”… (see what I did there? ) I’m kidding, of course; don’t get into manufacturing. Yes, the profits are ridiculous, but the risk still outweighs the reward. Plus it’s against the rules on here to encourage others to manufacture. True story.

Anyways just my unsolicited $0.02: keep your head up, but your ears to the ground; reach out to network (v. important) and stay positive. We get back what we project out there, you know…

Oh also, some of those bath salts are really wonderful stimulants when used properly. They should never be passed off as genuine MDMA, but otherwise, many of them aren’t without their own charms, merits, and demerits, FWIW

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Dammit man. Don’t be so pessimistic and Debbie Downer-esque. There is still very, very pure MDMA on the market; you just have to know where to look. Or you just have to know how to “cook”… (see what I did there? ) I’m kidding, of course; don’t get into manufacturing. Yes, the profits are ridiculous, but the risk still outweighs the reward. Plus it’s against the rules on here to encourage others to manufacture. True story.

Anyways just my unsolicited $0.02: keep your head up, but your ears to the ground; reach out to network (v. important) and stay positive. We get back what we project out there, you know…

Oh also, some of those bath salts are really wonderful stimulants when used properly. They should never be passed off as genuine MDMA, but otherwise, many of them aren’t without their own charms, merits, and demerits, FWIW

all the production is heavily restricited for a while.

We use to have mdma for extremly cheap before covid and enchrochat busts and super good. Now most things are either balts no mdma at all landing on the shores. Before then people get could kilo amounts for extremly good price.

 

[Jmoda]

Stuff is still good out near me, got a quarter last fall that I just tried a bit recently and had an amazing time. My brother who’s normally a hard head claimed it was some of the best he’s tried. It’s been a long time since I rolled, and the comeup was next level.

Also @unodelacosa can you find refs or at least convert those freebase BP’s you mentioned before so we comparing apples to apples. Cuz from what I see you mention two different vacuum pressures for those freebases, and I’m not someone that seems to understand vacuum very well to convert.

Back in the Hive days they were very aware of MDDMA as an impurity yet still claimed vacuum fractional distillation worked to obtain a very pure end product.

If anyone can figure out how to convert those BP’s to the same vacuum pressure we’d have a better idea on the possibility of separation via vacuum distillation.

Atmospheric can’t be done as you said without a flask full of polymerized crap. But pretty sure the vacuum doesn’t need to be ultra strong, theoretically one could install a bleed line or turn down the vacuum to get it to a place where polymerization doesn’t happen yet the BP’s are far enough apart for proper separation.

-GC

Do we think the mass producers today are doing this shit tho? Probably not right

 

[G_Chem]

Do we think the mass producers today are doing this shit tho? Probably not right

Oh no definitely not, some yes, but most no sadly. It’s likely rare.

Btw just realized I still haven’t gotten back DM, my apologies man I’m just absolutely horrible getting back, my inbox’s will attest to that

-GC

 

[Jmoda]

Oh no definitely not, some yes, but most no sadly. It’s likely rare.

Btw just realized I still haven’t gotten back DM, my apologies man I’m just absolutely horrible getting back, my inbox’s will attest to that

-GC

No worries. I am equally terrible