Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[jamesBrown]

i cant Imogene using a needle till it falls apart

thats haggard....

Where I live, thats pretty much how everyone does it unless your rich.

i dont evenwanna think about the diseases being spread and all the other complications resulting from no needle exchanges. It enrages me so much.

 

[SkagKush]

ya fair enough, i dont tend to associate big bucks with rigs because its free here, as long as you acquire one first......

yo james bro, how are you feeling? r u alive homes?

 

[jamesBrown]

ya fair enough, i dont tend to associate big bucks with rigs because its free here, as long as you acquire one first......

yo james bro, how are you feeling? r u alive homes?

Im still in horrific pain and am going to the hospital tommorow morning. They will more than likely have to perform surgery. I dont want that so im gonna do my best to have as many bowel movements as possible between now and then.
Im seriously contemplating just manually pulling the shit out of my rectum. I know that sounds disgusting but if it will relieve my pain I would do it without a second thought.
I basically just spend my time rolling around on the floor moaning in pain, and then getting up to take my medications and then go back to the floor. Im not gonna lie, sometimes I cry it hurts so bad. And sometimes when i am allready up from getting my meds, i think I might as well log onto BL just to see whats up because it kinda distracts me from my pain a little bit. I mean, im still in horrible pain, but even just a slight decrease in pain would be a godsend.

I guess I will let you know tommorow(or maybe longer depending on how long im in the hospital) how im doing.

 

[Bubblebobble]

In my experience most people hardly have any WD tapering down from a higher dose to say 2 or 4 mg's(or even less preferrably). I believe its a common misconception that it will be a horrible, long, drawn out process just because its buprenorphine.
The people who tell tales of hoprrible WD's from there suboxone usually are following what there doctors are telling them to do(which is normally the right thing to do, but not in this case), but unfortunately it seems that most doctors simply do not understand how this medication works, and how to correctly taper someone down....this is more than likely a result of buprenorphine being a relatively new drug for opiate addiction maintanence, there simply isnt enough experience for these doctors to truly understand how to taper properly, because they follow what they learned in that online(i think its online) class which certifies them to precribe suboxone and as we all know, from the very beginning of suboxone, it has been lied about in many ways.....i.e...the fact that they(the drug companies and FDA/DEA) say that the naloxone in the xuboxone makes it unabusable......which has been proven false every time someone snorts a line of bupe or injects a suboxone solution.
Basically, you need to figure out on your own whats the best way to get down to a low dose level...but in my opinion...I would drop immediately down to like 1-2 mg's because I don think you will have much WD's and it would save you some time. You have nothing to lose, if you start to get sick, just take some more sub and youll be fine. See, nothin to worry about.
Good Luck

I'm just amazed that my most drastic reduction showed no signs of WD when I clearly had symptoms dropping at higher levels. The only thing I can think of is: maybe bupe's antagonist properties act differently at higher doses? I don't know.

JB, why do you find lower doses of suboxone to be more "effective" (and even slightly euphoric) compared to higher ones? I can only imagine that the antagonist properties of bupe aren't as effective at lower doses? I can't think of another explanation.

Hope you're doing okay JB.

This is my 5th day on 3mg/daily. I'm feeling just fine...

 

[SkagKush]

o no, man, im so sorry....

i dont even no what to say.... thats so bad.....i just had a painful movement....and im stressing reading about you

good luck, and i think you will be ok if you get pain killers, just make sure you go straight back to bupe....


and BUBBLE

when bupe is used at lower doses there is room left for norbupe in the opiate receptors in your brain....

norbupe is a full agonist, and you get fairly high from it....

if you take a high dose, you dont get any norbupe due to the high protein binding afficiancy............

 

[jamesBrown]

I'm just amazed that my most drastic reduction showed no signs of WD when I clearly had symptoms dropping at higher levels. The only thing I can think of is: maybe bupe's antagonist properties act differently at higher doses? I don't know.

JB, why do you find lower doses of suboxone to be more "effective" (and even slightly euphoric) compared to higher ones? I can only imagine that the antagonist properties of bupe aren't as effective at lower doses? I can't think of another explanation.

Hope you're doing okay JB.

This is my 5th day on 3mg/daily. I'm feeling just fine...

Heres a post that I have posted any times on BL. Many people ask me the exact same question you just asked me so i got tired of having to repeat it over and over again so I saved it to my computer so I can just copy and paste....

Basically...this post just explains why bupe works better i tiny doses...

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthre...,+speak,+amount+low+dose+suboxone#post8835640

^^that link takes you to the thread that I was talking about....its post #34.


Also....you are right....bupes antagonistic properties are more evident at higher doses, while smaller doses tend to show agonistic properties that ouweigh the antagonistic ones. This has to do with the metabolite norbuprenorphine that I talked about in that link above^^.
Please let me know if the link did not work.

 

[SkagKush]

metabolize was the word i was looking for

 

[raw_smack]

I have a question about why they say that nalaxone has no effect. I find that it gives me withdrawls when i take it 12 hours after my last heroin dose. Subutex on the other hand can be taken just minutes after my last dose. For some reason doctors still tell you to wait until your in withdrawl even if you are taking subutex. That is complete bullshit. Suboxone on the other hand gives me withdrawls , so it has to be the nalaxone

 

[raw_smack]

Where I live, thats pretty much how everyone does it unless your rich.

i dont evenwanna think about the diseases being spread and all the other complications resulting from no needle exchanges. It enrages me so much.

walgreens sells them fo five bucks

 

[SkagKush]

i think there illegal where he is from

 

[Sublimit]

you didnt exactly make it very clear as to how much bupe you are IV'ing/day....

my quote

Quote:if i;m IV'ing mg a day... ballpark figure... how long until i'm at least able to get 80% of a full agonist?

Im guessing your only using 1 or 2 mg's a day. And if so, I think you will be able to experience 80% of a full agonist ANYTIME you want. WHenever I maintained on a 2 mg or less dose, I was able to feel about 90% of a full agonists effects almost anytime, and then if I waited just a few hours, like 4-12, I would definitely be able to feel pretty much 100% of the full agonist. But if you are taking a higher dose, it would be different. The more you take, the more it blocks the full agonist....allthough, anything over like 4mg's, in my opinion, completely blocks a full agonist. You would have to wait about 24 hr's in my opinion if you were on 4 mg's.

my quote

Quote:Sublimit don't regularly keep up to date with your thread but are there many people here that IV as their ROA od choice?

*FYI.....I was an IV suboxone user and I took 0.5 mg doses everyday, sometimes up to 3 times a day. I got a nice euphoria from the low dose because of bupes full agonist metabolite norbuprenorphine. It also gave me energy, and had anti-depressant qualities. I loved it. But I would also take breaks from my suboxone lots of times. On average about 3-7 days....but the most was 15 days. But now im actually going on like 24-25 days, I forgot the exact number....im planning on staying off for several weeks longer to prove to people that my maintanence/tapering methods prevent withdrawals from occuring, as well as PAWS.

Hey thanks JB, yeah a lot of what you said is helping now because i'm in the process of switching to a full agonist (almost 20 hours since my last bupe shot) and i plan to take that on the 24 hour mark.... just as United kick off

a lot of what i said about bupe dosage is irrelevant now and that is whats concerning me. the last week i was more like I'ving 3-3.5mg of buprenorphine, and my last shot was 1mg and 4 hours before that i had another 1mg shot.. so 2mg plus maybe a mg throughout the beginning of yesterday... possibly 1.5mg. so i've had 4mg IV max within the last 36 hours and 20 since my last 1mg dose last night.

I have Plenty of OC40's at my disposal, i've read that H has much better success than OC when it comes to full agonists taking to the mu receptors while there are certain amounts of bupe there. Is this true? and is the difference really noticeable?

I've been on subs for probably 4 weeks now slowly increasing from 2 to 3mg a day.... somedays more. I'm having absolutely no opiate WD what so ever.... i expected otherwise. I have done this before but was only on subs for a week and a bit and ended up waiting 30 hours and tested the waters with 20mg of OC and went from there.... in a sense i was hoping for some WD, just so i know i'm going to get pleasant experience.... well i still have 4 hours to go until i dose my OC, just don't know if i should test the waters or just go for it..... i do have a box of those 15's... might be worth MF'ing one of those guys on the 23rd hour

 

[Sublimit]

Yes, at similar doses, I got indentical effects

Thank you for that bit of info regarding any difference for the IV use of suboxon to subutex (i don't feel the need to quate myself as you should get what i'm saying from my responses)

I am not familiar with injecting outside of the arms. I know people use their leg veins but there is a good reason for not using this one. As for injecting in the neck, I also don't recommend doing that just because I wouldn't know how to inform you on how to do that. I have known people on Bluelight to do this and share this info strictly to reduce harm, which is allowed and OK, but I just personally have no idea man, sorry.

As for naloxone, I am sure it's OK for your health. I can't see anything bad coming about from it.

I have been experimenting with veins further up and closer to my wrists, and tried the the wrists a couple of times with varying results. different gauges suit different veins i've found. been using the 29 G for 90% of my use. just need to stop at 70max units otherwise i find it hard to get a register with an almost full fit. in general its been a lot better since i've started rotating outside of my usual areas

practice makes perfect

There are a lot of people who IV, and a lot of people who snort it too. Some people switch between IV and snorting

yeah i've read the end of the last mega thread and now the start of this one.... i just haven't had much time to post here, got all sorts of pending threads to attend to

A drug's duration of effects is separate from its half life. If you look up a drug's half life, it isn't going to tell you much about that drug's duration of effects.

I hope that made sense

yeah it does and i know it's non linear. was more interested with hands on experience on if IV'ing subs and the effect it has on the duration of the drugs action and HL and being able to gain some time in switching to a full agonist, specifically oxycodone

 

[Sublimit]

well everything was a success including United

I can barely write im nodding that hard

2hours ago i put 2 15mg OC's and crushed them into fine powder on a spoon. i stirred and let it sit as i watche4d the game. this was 22 hours since my last 1mg IV sub dose

After micron filtering including a rewash i had 30mg of OC in 2ml of water using a 3ml barrel. i thought for a little while as soon as i pushed that plunger down that it all got blocked, but soon i felt the subtle onset of OC. I don't think it hit me fully and i don't think its a tolerance issue with subs, just that there was defiantly buprenorphine blocking, but i still felt it come on fully after a minute. it would be the equivalent of taking 10mg of oxycodone orally with low tolerance....thats my analysis anyway

Anyway i'll be jumping back on the subs sometime within 24 hours, but i wanted to have a full blown strong opiate experience so 45mins after the 30mg IV'd OC i cleaned up 2 light orange 40mg OC's and 2 grey 15mg OC's, crushed it up, filtered and re filtered, ran it through a micron into a fresh 5ml barrel. I used 4 OC pills so 1ml per pill gave me 110mg of oxycodone in 4ml. i used a 27G and i slowly pushed it all in, i was feeling it coming on strong as i pushed the last ml into my bloodstream.
i know they've a kickass HL but i only took 4mg of clonazepam, and that was in the morning/afternoon.... its now well past midnight here and normally 110mg of IV'd OC would get me nodding so i'm more than happy about the result (1-2Hernadez) I've had nod lite with suboxone.... but i'm pretty sure that it synergises very well with clonazepam, which i'm currently on. what an awesome feeling and haven't felt it for a long time,,, since i last used H around 3 months ago. It's awesome because i have no hesitation of going straight back to the subs..... my parents went to europe and i gave them just under 90 20mg OC's which i've just let sit, and i have my own growing stockpile sitting in my safe that doesn't bother me at all. it's funny because i have 20 40's that were prescribed to me by a specialist about 2 weeks ago and i still get my monthly script, which has been reduced from 90 30mg to the 15mg grey ones. so i've got 88 15mg oc tablets and another script which i haven't even filled yet.... i have some paranoia about not filling it.... so i think i should fill it and stay on the subs.

because my doctors don't know about my DOC being H i almost feel guilty about being prescribed them and not taking them... it just that i have lost all control with my monthly oxy script always running out a week early because of IV use and using recreational doses. I love Suboxone because it gives me structure and it gives me respect for full agonists.... there's no way i could do this a year ago... well my injury hadn't happened but i was in active addiction with H and as much as i tried i couldn't respect it... ... probably near impossible to have respect for H... i'm talking self respect, financial position, times used in a month or year and what i mean by self respect is that no matter how good your hygiene is, if you're an
H IV user then it is possible to catch hep C HIV etc no matter what you do... because you're putting something directly into your bloodstream thats been handled by dome dealer who has been handling swabs with infected blood and cutting your soon to be shot gear with their bare hands. I've probably had 50 blood tests, only shred a needle once with my cousin about 6-7 years ago.

I had always thought i had something even though i'm an avid HM enthusiast.... well have developed into one thanks hugely to BL and it's awesome community. blood test after test would come back negative and healthy, and as much as that was a relief, it wasn't enough from me to stop scoring H. In this year i have injured my knee, well actually re injured it. I started using the pain medication as an opiate replacement as well as for analgesia, but like i said, script after script and WD after WD..... these WD'd off OC were way worse than i got from smack simply because i don't have to money to use H for 3 weeks in a row, or even if i did i wouldn't spend those crazy amounts we have here in australia. my 78 years of smack use was basically 2 days on and 5 days off and a WD every time, sometimes i would use for up to a week but vary rarely. I only recently got into the whole pharmaceutical opiates to minimalise H WD. I'd just buy OTC codeine and CWE it, or DHC syrup otc. or i'd used to get a script of tramadol, which was probably the most effective of relieving me of being completely dopesick.

Once i was getting prescribed OC i realised that i wouldn't have to never worry about using H again. thats what my whole deal is with this post.... and sorry if i got a bit carried away, but i feel like atm subs are very effective for me, for analgesia for opiate replacement, for it's blocking effect and i find it has very little temptation for me to stray from a static dosing regime. And i also believe it's teaching me to respect other drugs, not just for strong opiates, but for my current benzo regime as well. and most importantly and fundamentally it..... my own self medication and how i treat myself with suboxone ensures that i will always have OC available if i'm at my worst and just for some reason need to get on then I'd be doing what i did tonight and IV a large dose of OC, honestly i'd prefer OC if i were to relapse, but even with a few good connects H is always going to be easier to get than OC or MS.

The bottom line is tonight was my choice to have one taste of OC, I felt i deserved it because it's over 3 months now since my last use of H and ever since i put a needle in my arm 7 years ago. there might be a time where i think fuck this i'm getting on, or i might be emotionally raped by someone. reflecting on my past H use... 95% of it was spontaneous, rarely premeditated. if something does happen while i'm on subs i'll probably feel a lot different by the time i am able to use a strong agonist, in which case i'd stay on the subs. These last 3 months have been great and i don't think i've even had a thought about using H. Plenty of thoughts about the OC sitting at home with me... but\ even then, this is the second time i've used a full agonist in 3 months and i don't feel the slightest bit guilty about it because i know that my next dose of an opiate will be suboxone.... i also have a bottle of 50mg naltrexone.... i have all these options that revolve around me having respect for myself and certain substances of addiction, and a structure or platform to base my recovery on. i think its very solid ATM and will try and be more active in this thread, rather than post huge updates once a month

PS i was nodding so hard at the start but now i'm fine... it did take me an hour to write this though lol couple of slaps to the face every now and then were required

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Thank you for that bit of info regarding any difference for the IV use of suboxon to subutex (i don't feel the need to quate myself as you should get what i'm saying from my responses)

I have been experimenting with veins further up and closer to my wrists, and tried the the wrists a couple of times with varying results. different gauges suit different veins i've found. been using the 29 G for 90% of my use. just need to stop at 70max units otherwise i find it hard to get a register with an almost full fit. in general its been a lot better since i've started rotating outside of my usual areas

I have used my wrist veins but I don't like using them often. 31G needles really help IMO.

yeah it does and i know it's non linear. was more interested with hands on experience on if IV'ing subs and the effect it has on the duration of the drugs action and HL and being able to gain some time in switching to a full agonist, specifically oxycodone

With the short duration of IV buprenorphine, and often the dose is low enough that it is possible to switch from bupe to full agonists, and vice versa, fairly easily. With an appreciable opiate tolerance and larger / normal dose of buprenorphine, switching can become more tricky.

 

[Bubblebobble]

JB,

Thank you for referring me to that post. Correct if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that norbupe doesn't readily cross the BBB, rendering it inactive (except for depression the respiratory system). Everything else makes sense to me, but that.

Also, do you find that that "sweetspot" happens to be different for most people? Or is it around the same dose? How specific is the dose? That is, if your dose is .5mg, if you take .8 will you have ~the same effects? Or will they be diminished? How far off the sweetspot can you go and still achieve the same effect? I ask so I have a good idea what increments to reduce by once I'm below 1.5mg. I realize a lot depends on absorption. Have you tried taking a slightly larger does, say 2x's your norm? Does this result in greater effects since your tolerance has lowered? Or is it useless because your covering receptors with more bupe instead of norbupe?


Again, thanks for the info JB. And I hope ur doing okay.

 

[fistful_of_needles]

"With the short duration of IV buprenorphine, and often the dose is low enough that it is possible to switch from bupe to full agonists, and vice versa, fairly easily. With an appreciable opiate tolerance and larger / normal dose of buprenorphine, switching can become more tricky."

these days when I make this switch on occasion for whatever reasons I find that H is no longer that special ; my interpretation of this loss of magic is the accumulation of buprenorphine in my system unabling me to feel the H as I should otherwise (been on bupre maintenance for nearly 2 years now on doses 2-4mgs daily) ,basically I feel as if I ´ve changed one habit for another .Does this happen to anybody else in here ? As in when you occasionally relapse you´re basically disappointed in what you got off of your former DOC "secretly" wishing you hadn´t done it at all in the 1st place ? Who would have imagined some months ago that I´d find myself actually enjoying the effects of bupre more than H´s?

PS- Hahahah , come to think of it 6x 8mgs Texs = half a year supply for you ... will soon follow ...

 

[SkagKush]

JB,

Thank you for referring me to that post. Correct if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that norbupe doesn't readily cross the BBB, rendering it inactive (except for depression the respiratory system). Everything else makes sense to me, but that.

Also, do you find that that "sweetspot" happens to be different for most people? Or is it around the same dose? How specific is the dose? That is, if your dose is .5mg, if you take .8 will you have ~the same effects? Or will they be diminished? How far off the sweetspot can you go and still achieve the same effect? I ask so I have a good idea what increments to reduce by once I'm below 1.5mg. I realize a lot depends on absorption. Have you tried taking a slightly larger does, say 2x's your norm? Does this result in greater effects since your tolerance has lowered? Or is it useless because your covering receptors with more bupe instead of norbupe?


Again, thanks for the info JB. And I hope ur doing okay.

the sweet spot is very dependent on you, but a good rule of thumb is the lower the better.....0.5mg is a good starting ground, and id try lower than higher imo, then you can dose several times daily...

if you dose more, yes you are correct, the receptors will be full and no norbupe will attach..... sorry......

 

[need some help]

Suboxone answers?

Please help, i'm obviously new to the site, and need a couple of answers. i've had an opiate problem off and on for 10 years. i can quit for a while but it never sticks, and of course the amount and frequency continue to sky rocket. i've checked into the suboxone programs, and i feel that taking the cravings away will help until i can regain some perspective and work on long term therapy. At this point i am willing to do whatever it takes, i'm sick of living like this. The stakes are higher and i HAVE to stop. My intake form says that i must test positive for opiates in the office, and be in mild to moderate w/d. What happens if i've managed to stay clean for a week before my visit, due to either will power(unlikely) or being unable to obtain it due to it's lack of availability? i need honest answers. i'm pretty desperate at this point.

 

[fizzle]

Support ---> OD

 

[ATLL765]

Try searching for the Suboxone megathread. If you check in the OD directory you should find it. At the moment they're on v9, but the directory may not have that, but you'll be able to direct yourself to it if you find the old version(v8 ) which will definitely be in there. Both versions will have loads of great info to help you and if you still need more specific info to your situation, post this question in the most recent megathread and see what answers you get there.