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Mega Merged WD Thread

Nope...

Fast: It is seriously flawed because opium is only produced in one of the 3 ovary walls - not throughout the pod. The opium is produced in the inner of the 3. It is then transferred via vessels and tubes [juice channels] to the middle ovary wall. Additionally there would be perceptible differences in yield [between opium and unscored pods] because latex production is stimulated by scoring these pods. The latex runs from the bottom upwards to the top of the pod. The pod compensates when scored. You have a good mind but you need to study the plant [and it has been studied to exhaustion].

As for farmers needing to score pods in order to collect viable seeds, it is out and out incorrect. In a mature plant [i. e. a plant that produces opium] the seeds have reached viability and do not need further nourishment. In fact, most farmers do not use seeds [to sow] that come from incised pods. They usually use the first maturing pods en masse, un scored.

I do appreciate you "scoring" [excuse the pun] the data sheet as I understandably do not have access to the British or Martindales...

Tokerman: There is a reason that you do not see pod tea...as I have said a couple of times already...on a milligram per milligram basis tea just does not compare. Do you even wonder that if tea was so powerful it WOULD be available on the black market? I am sorry but your lack of understanding is showing. The morphine in tea will not give you the same effect as insufflated heroin [on a mg. per mg. basis of course] because heroin enables morphine to cross the blood to brain barrier at 3 times the rate of ingested morphine. Therefore you would have to do at least 3 times the amount of morphine to get the same reaction.

The rush would not make anything more physically addictive [that is the subject at hand remember]. Neither would the mode of administration. Please study the science of addiction for a much better understanding.

Actually I am arguing that the alkaloidal content in tea does not make it as physically addictive as heroin on a milligram per milligram basis...

Your last line is patently wrong because in the case of mental addiction no substance is easier than any other...That is one area that you can certainly use your subjective reports from Erowid and Poppies.org....
 
I haven't ever gone through heroin wd's. But I have gone through oxy withdrawals twice, hydro withdrawals once and poppy tea withdrawals once. The poppy tea withdrawals was not only more intense it lasted twice as long. So I would say that poppy tea is serious shit as far as addiction goes.
 
Re: Uh uh...

rachamim18 said:
Show me something other than your subjective opinion and we can discuss it ,otherwise I am not biting...I disagree that a large amount of subjective experience trumps objective scientific data. First of all subjective experiences are subject to too many variables. Secondly, it would be impossible to qualify how many of these subjects have experienced "strong" opiates/opioids in order to make such a comparison.
Click to expand...

The mental effects of poppy tea compared to other opiates, is by sheer definition, subjective. The only way to scientifically document a comparison of the mental effects from pod tea (and other opiates), would be to do so with subjective data. So exactly what kind of data would you like me to present to you on the subjective effects of pod tea, if not subjective data? What are you looking for then?

Yes, there are many variables when describing any psychoactive substances. And whether or not the subject has experience with other opiates is a valid concern when the question is on the potency of pod tea. But as far as the hundreds of threads at PORG, and trip reports on erowid in which poppy tea is compared to other opiates...we know these folks have used other opiates because they are directly comparing their experiences with poppy tea to other opiates. Obviously, for a person to be able to say, "Poppy tea is as strong (or stronger) than other opiates, even heroin, that I have used"...the person would have had to used (and thus be experienced) with other opiates, and/or heroin, in order to make the comparison in the first place. (duh) So your reasoning that subjective data on poppy tea is not valid (because of the variable that concerning whether or not other opiates had been used), isn't relevant at all.

That aside, you never answered my question before (you danced around it) and I would really like you to address it...

Once again...To claim poppy tea is mild in effect (as compared with other opiates) is to completely ignore all of the statements and reports to the contrary. Are you maintaining that those who have posted experiences that contradict your claims are all lying?

That's fine that you don't consider subjective opinion relevant here, even though the topic of this whole argument is subjective in nature (go figure that one 8) )...but the questions still remain...

* Why are there literally hundreds of folks (that do have experience with other opiates) who have posted of experiences that contradict your claims that poppy pods do not provide a "substantial effect"?

* Why did folks (who do have experience with other opiates) that drank poppy tea in my presence, describe and experience effects that do not in any way equate to no substantial effect?

* Why would I (and keep in mind I have LOTS of experience with opiates) maintain that good poppy pods are as potent (or more so) than other opiates, hands down?

* Why would all of these people make these claims (including myself) if it were not their experience?

That's fine that you don't consider subjective opinions relevant in the argument, but I am still asking these questions and (since you so strongly insist on maintaining your position, while outright dismissing the position of others fully as qualified as you are to take a stance on the issue) I would like to see you answer them.
 
Morning glory....

As per mental effects...please see my previous post. Actually, the mental component is irrelevant as it cannot be qualified. I am only addressing the physical aspect.


Um, no offense but Poppy.org is not any different than any other unscientific site. It is good for growing tips, tea recipes, maybe even C.W.E. but what it is definitely not good for is for making informed decisions that directly effect ones life. For that I am afraid that you will have to dig a bit deeper. I always say that a skeptical mind is a healthy body ,so do both of us a favor and research the subject at hand.Do not rely on a defunct website devoted to getting high when it comes to forming educated opinions. Search through a wide variety of sources, and if you come to the same conclusion, then at least you will know that your decision [or opinion] is based in reality.

To satisfy your curiosity...the reason that I did not answer your question is because it lacked substance. It is irrelevant if they are lying because they are offering nothing but subjective experience and I do not look towards that when exploring a topic...Do I think they are lying? Hmmm...no...but in the end I do not care.


Now please answer a question for me: How do you categorize physical addiction as subjective? While there may be subjective variables, the mechanics are universal.


Your assertion of "Hundreds of people" sharing your opinion holds about as much weight as my assertion of "hundreds of people" sharing my opinion, except that I also have scientific data backing my opinion up...


zzz...Here we go...more word games."Substantial effect IN COMPARISON TO ISOLATED ALKALOIDAL PREPARATIONS." Is it clear yet?

Let me sum it up AGAIN since you seem fond of repeating the same tired point in your last post. Opinions mean nothing unless they are backed by objective data. Produce some data showing that tea [with all of its various alkaloids] offers a greater degree of physical addiction than heroin? No? O.K. How about Morphine? No? O.K. I will make it easy for you to prove your point...Show me some data that says it offers a greater degree than even codeine...As per qualifications I assure you that I would not be caught dead dicksizing my educational achievements, but in any case as a consumer of both tea and isolated opiates I am at the very least as qualified as all "the hundreds" at Poppies.org...
 
Quality not quantity

You've missed my arguement - you said that the effects of pod tea would be different to eating opium, but as the opium is produced in the pod (then used to make pod tea), oral ingestion of pod tea is identical to oral ingestion of opium, as the same alkaloids are there in the same relative quantities - they have to be as one is the source for the other. They both contain morphine as the main alkaloid. All that is different is the absolute amounts, but this can be compensated by merely increasing the weight of pods used to make the tea, to the point where the dose of morphine in the tea is the same as it is in a given weight of opium to be consumed


Produce some data showing that tea [with all of its various alkaloids] offers a greater degree of physical addiction than heroin? No? O.K. How about Morphine?

It offers the same degree of addiction as morphine, it must do as the main alkaloid is morphine


btw these are the actual figures for morphine content

opium...........................................................8-15 %

dry capsule chaff (as used for pod tea)........0.25-0.5 %

Ref.
UN document on opium production

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/bulletin/bulletin_1953-01-01_3_page005.html
 
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Nope...

Actually you have missed the boat Fast, we are discussing milligram per milligram so it is not important. Yep morphine is the chief constituient in Somniferum but the highest percentage in any variety NEVER exceeds 17%, and rarely exceeds 11%. Again, on a mg. per mg. basis how can you come to that conclusion?...From conversing with you on the "unmentionable synth. site" [of course I post there] I understand that your field of expertise lies in biology...you know then, that it all comes down to studies. Please check the two I offered before and then see if you still feel the same way.

For the sake of common sense...If you are consuming a substance with 10% of the desired alkaloid, will you get the same effect from consuming a substance consisting of 100% of the same alkaloid, on a milligram per milligram basis? The rate of physical addiction is directly related to receptor uptake. The second substance will flood the desired receptors all the more faster...
 
If you drink more tea, you get more of the drug (morphine). From the UN figures 1g of opium will contain 80 - 150mg of morphine, and 1g of dried capsule will contain 2.5 - 5mg. Using the upper values (because the maths is easier) 30g of dried capsule will contain the same amount of morphine as 1g of opium.

From those figures,

swallowing 0.2g of opium will provide 30mg of morphine.

using 6g of pods to make tea will provide 30mg of morphine

Therefore using those amounts each day (of either preparation) will provide the same degree of addiction (to morphine), and also the same effects in the CNS in terms of mu receptor agonism, subsequently followed by downregulation

your contention that consuming pod tea is akin to eating opium is seriously flawed

in light of the figures above, how is eating 0.2g of opium different to drinking tea made from 6g of pods, other than the fact that in one case the alkaloids are in solution, and in the others it is not
 
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Poppy pods contain opium. There is hundreds of years of research/data on the addictive qualities of opium. I really don't think any more needs to be said on that issue.

Regardless, I was not actually addressing the physical properties of opium addiction. They are well known and need not be addressed.

I was, however, addressing the degree of intoxication produced by opium tea...as compared to other opiates. You stated that, "it (opium pod tea) is not stronger than pure morphine." Well of course not...opium tea contains morphine that is diluted with plant waxes, tannins, water, and other alkaloids. But the morphine in the tea is (obviously) just as strong as morphine, because it is morphine! There is nothing to argue there.

I did take issue with your assertion that, "they (opium-containing pods) do not offer a substantial effect."

I asked you to address the many people (including me) who have a very different experience. When I asked you if we are all lying, you did say..."Hmmm...no."

The other fluff you printed above aside, you have seemingly now acknowleded that there are people, including some in this thread, who (contrary to your opinion) find opium tea provides an effect as great (or greater) than that of pure, pharmacuetical narcotics (or heroin). That's all I was looking for really. Obviously morphine diluted in water with tannins and other alkaloids is going to be weaker than pure morphine. Twenty milligrams of morphine has much less volume than a cup of tea. And by you realizing that many folks find the effect of opium tea to be on an near equal (or equal) level to that of heroin, or other opiates...I guess this discussion is over.
 
thanks...

Fast: You have done my job wonderfully and successfully argued my point. We are finally in agreement that on a mg. per mg. basis tea is weaker...

MorningGlory:Your argument is sounding weaker and weaker each post...the last one added nothing.
 
one additional note...

The U.N. paper is wrong in that the highest known morphine content is an average 17 % for certain Turkish and Balkan strains...
 
You didn't answer the question. From the figures regarding the amount of morphine in 0.2g of opium (30mg), and the amount of opium in 6g of pods (30mg), whats the difference other than the physical state of the morphine when ingested?
 
Huh?

I did not see that it was a question but I will play along...NOTHING. That does not change the reality that it takes a hell of alot more pods [ as opposed to any other substance] to reach the desired effects and develop the same severity of addiction. How does your question factor in to a mg. per mg. ratio?
 
So you admit that the pod tea experience is the same as eating opium, its just a matter of amount. I wasn't argueing about the amount needed, just that they are capable of producing the same effects (if you use enough pods in the preparation of the tea)?
 
Duh!

Well of course Fast but I do not believe that it was ever a point of contention. My argument is, and remains, that tea is not as physically addictive as isolated opiates on a milligram per milligram basis...It is also my position that tea is not as effective psychoactively on a milligram per milligram basis...
 
Re: Huh?

rachamim18 said:
That does not change the reality that it takes a hell of alot more pods [ as opposed to any other substance] to reach the desired effects and develop the same severity of addiction.
Click to expand...

A lot as in what? What constitutes "a lot"?

A good dose of opium tea (for me) is made from around 6g to 10g of ground pods, which I simmer in a cup of water. Surveys of morphine content of opium pod heads would maintain this brew would contain (about) 30mg to 50mg of morphine. Now 6g is a lot more (as far as weight and/or volume) than, say, .2grams of opium latex (for the same 30mg). Or a morphine pill containing 30mg. But so what...no one ever said opium tea was more potent (by weight) than other narcotics.

What was in dispute was the effect of this tea. You previously maintained that opium tea was without substantial effect...but even you now must realize this is flawed reasoning. Opium tea potency depends on how many pods (which delivers the opium) were used in the tea. If enough pods were used to deliver 30mg of morphine...this morphine (in the form of opium tea) is no weaker than 30mg of morphine from opium latex, or a pill.

Another point...You said opium tea was without substantial effect. But what defines opium tea? Is it tea brewed from 1g, or 6g...or 10g? Well, if you used 1/2 a pod (maybe 1.5g)...little will be experienced. But use three large pods of the gig strain (about 10 grams)...and one (with no tolerance) would end up nodding quite hard. This brew would contain over 50mg of morphine...plus other alkaloids. Having said that, there is no further argument...that is unless you just enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing.

Is drinking one cup of liquid, brewed from 6g (or so) of pods a lot? I dunno. It is really irrelevant. What was in question was the effect of the resulting brew. And thankfully, it looks as if that issue has been put to rest.
 
Finally...

Finally Morning Glory comes through...It is in the volume. When you gauge effectiveness OBJECTIVELY you do so on a mg. per mg. basis, and Fast: I thought that you of all people would not need that fact reiterated but so be it.

How else could a person make a comparison between different substances than through a milligram per milligram comparison?

One last note Morning Glory: 30 mgs. of morphine is not considered a substantial dose by most users...not that it really matters as long as you feel it.
 
We are

How else could a person make a comparison between different substances than through a milligram per milligram comparison?

We are - 30mg of morphine from opium compared with 30mg of morphine from pod tea

I think the only point of contention now is whether you can admit that you were incorrect
 
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