Kratom Kratom 101 - Useful stuff to know before first try?

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

yeah, it's just as bad as googling anything

says the risk of combining kratom and quetiapine is death via quetiapine overdose... and the way it suggested this occurs was via CYP inhibition leading to cumulative overdose of an antipsychotic.

that's a fanciful but near impossible situation.

Fatal combination of mitragynine and quetiapine – a case report with discussion of a potential herb-drug interaction - Forensic Science, Medicine and Pathology

Kratom is a plant with dose-dependent mixed stimulant and opioid properties whose pharmacologic characteristics and social impact continue to be described. The main active isolate of kratom is mitragynine, an indole-containing alkaloid with opioid-like effects. Kratom toxicity and...

link.springer.com

 

[Jabberwocky]

Theres a legit case report of a dude ODing on Seroquel by way of kratom. The mitragynine inhibited CYP significantly enought to cause the blood concentration level of the quetiapine to rise to dangerous levels. I think we will see many more contraidictions and interactions in the future to come. Kratom is an opioid and 5HT antagonist alongside being a dopaminergic and adrenergic (and CYP inhibitor) and thats just what we know so far!

I'm really really curious how much seroquel and how much kratom he was taking for that to occur, particularly because seroquel has such a relatively short half life.

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

A Case of Potential Pharmacokinetic Kratom-drug... : Journal of Addiction Medicine

P2D6 and CYP3A. As such, kratom may precipitate pharmacokinetic drug interactions when co-consumed with certain medications. We present a case of a patient taking 150 mg venlafaxine (CYP2D6/3A substrate), 300 mg quetiapine (CYP3A substrate), and a high amount of kratom (~90 g) daily. The patient...

journals.lww.com

We present a case of a patient taking 150 mg venlafaxine (CYP2D6/3A substrate), 300 mg quetiapine (CYP3A substrate), and a high amount of kratom (~90 g) daily. The patient presented to the emergency department with serotonin syndrome

 

[chippermonk]

I typically brush off such things but I can confirm kratom does significantly interact with many, many drugs and medications in a very negative way. Everything from psych meds to weed.

There are a plethora of alkaloids in kratom, all with very promiscuous effects on the body.

Bad for both side effects and and interactions.

Yeah, and one of the things I read in another post (I believe it was you that said it) is that the half life of matragynine is very long, which has consequences. I took that to mean that some of the drug interactions with kratom would still be present even the next day when you really don't feel high

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

I'm really really curious how much seroquel and how much kratom he was taking for that to occur, particularly because seroquel has such a relatively short half life.

I think the 24 hour half-life of kratom is more the problem. There is a stupid paywall on the study so I cant see doses

 

[Jabberwocky]

I will be honest, based on my own experiences with kratom addiction over 10 years, I no longer doubt these fringe "death" stories

kratom has damaged my body significantly tbh

I hate the shit but can't completely stop

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think the 24 hour half-life of kratom is more the problem.

there is something metabolically abnormal about the metabolization thats for sure

and with alcohol on top?

my kidneys are fucked, my gallblader is fucked, and kratom is known to damage the bile ducts

I blame a lot of this on kratom and alcohol... how much was kratom? idk, but I know the answer is not zero

I was addicted to high doses of kratom and alcohol daily for so many years. Surprised it took this long in hindsight.

 

[chippermonk]

I will be honest, based on my own experiences with kratom addiction over 10 years, I no longer doubt these fringe "death" stories

kratom has damaged my body significantly tbh

I hate the shit but can't completely stop

Yeah, it is really surprisingly enjoyable to me in my limited experience so far. It seems kind of stimulating and serotogenic, like the way tramadol sometimes feels to me. Does that make any sense? Anyhow, it's touted for it's safety, and it sure ain't fentanyl or meth, but I can imagine big, regular doses could be a problem

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

I will be honest, based on my own experiences with kratom addiction over 10 years, I no longer doubt these fringe "death" stories

kratom has damaged my body significantly tbh

I hate the shit but can't completely stop

I agree. I love kratom, im a huge advocate but I'm even more of a harm reductionist. And while the deaths are sensationalized, its plain ignorant to discount them. However, it should be mentioned that most of them are mitragynine isolate (extract) caused. Which doesnt change the fact that it is kratom but it does give standard leaf a wee bit of a better safety profile

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yeah, it is really surprisingly enjoyable to me in my limited experience so far. It seems kind of stimulating and serotogenic, like the way tramadol sometimes feels to me. Does that make any sense? Anyhow, it's touted for it's safety, and it sure ain't fentanyl or meth, but I can imagine big, regular doses could be a problem

oh man, I loved kratom for 7 years before I ever felt any real detrimental side effects from it (other than withdrawal/addiction obviously).

then, about 2 years ago, my body started rejecting it

in very numerous ways

I wouldn't try to dissuade anyone from using it over another harder drug. It's great for that.

But long term, after years, it's just as bad as any hard drug on the body.

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

oh man, I loved kratom for 7 years before I ever felt any real detrimental side effects from it (other than withdrawal/addiction obviously).

then, about 2 years ago, my body started rejecting it

in very numerous ways

I wouldn't try to dissuade anyone from using it over another harder drug. It's great for that.

But long term, after years, it's just as bad as any hard drug on the body.

I love to hear this kind of viewpoint. Far too many folks out there in lala land (or just plain lying) about the safety profile of this "natural cure". Yesterday I had a guy in one of my forums go "dude - its a leaf off a fucking tree" as if poppy isnt a flower. And then we have these money moguel AKA fucks telling everyone it isnt an opioid. I followed that bullshit and landed myself in the ER with precip WD after taking 50mg naltrexone while on kratom. Kratom needs harm reduction just like any other drug

 

[Jabberwocky]

I've experienced major psychosis from kratom (in combination with other drugs, but some by itself, the alienated thoughts). Liver pains. Gallblader damage. Chills/fever. Chronic headaches. Serious dehydration. Lethargy. I could fucking go on man.... but those are the big ones.

I've also felt like chronic use of kratom really fucks with your neurochemistry in undocumented ways.

Oh and I have chronic kidney disease now. Maybe the alcohol idk.

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

I've experienced major psychosis from kratom. Liver pains. Gallblader damage. Chills/fever. Chronic headaches. Serious dehydration. Lethargy. I could fucking go on man.... but those are the big ones.

I've also felt like chronic use of kratom really fucks with your neurochemistry in undocumented ways.

The 5HT2a antagonism bothers me so bad. After about a year of kratom use, I lost all creativity and imagination. I went from owing a small arts and crafts studio to giving it up because it wasnt fun creating anymore. Music didnt sound good and nothing was fun. Psilocybin helped me combat it some.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The 5HT2a antagonism bothers me so bad. After about a year of kratom use, I lost all creativity and imagination. I went from owing a small arts and crafts studio to giving it up because it wasnt fun creating anymore. Music didnt sound good and nothing was fun.

I don't know what to blame on what when it comes to kratom.

Personally I feel like it's more on the dopamine end which causes the anhedonia and disinterest of everything. Just my guess, though. There are more studies around dopamine + kratom than serotonin. Kratom withdrawal to me always felt like a combinatinon of opioid + meth/amphetamine withdrawal (lack of dopamine).

the killer part of kratom withdrawal is the physical agitation, the akathisia, that's what kills me

I do not get that from other opioids

 

[Jabberwocky]

I recently went on a 2 month binge of pure 7-OH pills, not sure if you have heard of those yet? they're going around in the US

interesting look into the specific effects of 7-OH, but otherwise a regrettable experience

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

There are more studies around dopamine + kratom than serotonin. Kratom withdrawal to me always felt like a combinatinon of opioid + meth/amphetamine withdrawal (lack of dopamine).

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.1c00726

 

[PtahTek]

I don't recommend mixing powder kratom with water, it doesn't mix well and cause more stomach irritation since some of the fine powder can irritate the esophagus.

I can understand stomach issues may arise in certain health conditions but mixes fine for me with water. Its my only ROA. Years. Gotta be put atop (added to after heated) glass/cup of hot water... not boiling, ok?
I recommend drinking lots of water after dosind it seems to always give a little extra for me.
we all different, though; so IDK.
Trial and error...?


done laundry finally. time for miller

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

I recently went on a 2 month binge of pure 7-OH pills, not sure if you have heard of those yet? they're going around in the US

interesting look into the specific effects of 7-OH, but otherwise a regrettable experience

Ya so Im sure you know this but 7oH is mitragynine's metabolite but it is found in trace amounts in the leaf. Those pills you are referring to are likely Mitragynine-pseudoindoxyl labeled as 7oH. It can be artificially manifactured and its scary af because the industry is so unregulated. Its basically RC territory https://jpharmsci.org/article/S0022-3549(15)41798-8/pdf

 

[MercedesG]

Hey everyone!

So after starting my shittiest job yet, I decided I could you some extra "help" and kratom already seemed interesting to me, so I thought about buying some. The title basically tells everything :D What are some "good to know" stuffs before the first use? (Ps: Since I have some fuckery whit my heart, does kratom effects or "bad" for the heart? Since I cannot really drink coffee or energy drinks without chest pain, I thought maybe I can get some extra energy by kratom than.)

Thank you

Hey everyone!

So after starting my shittiest job yet, I decided I could you some extra "help" and kratom already seemed interesting to me, so I thought about buying some. The title basically tells everything :D What are some "good to know" stuffs before the first use? (Ps: Since I have some fuckery whit my heart, does kratom effects or "bad" for the heart? Since I cannot really drink coffee or energy drinks without chest pain, I thought maybe I can get some extra energy by kratom than.)

Thank you!

Remember it can be just as physically addictive as any other opiate. Ik this should be obvious, but there's a lot of false propaganda out there claiming it to be a "non-addictive alternative to opioids" which I unfortunately fell for (about 7-8 years ago) and led to a pretty bad addiction. Like with percs or oxi I knew they were addictive so I never took them more than once every couple weeks, whereas with kratom I started taking it daily. Started with just 1-2g/day which eventually led to 30+g/day, then harder opiates.

 

[Jabberwocky]

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.1c00726

"and mitragynine induced lower lip retraction and antinociception in rats"

lol, on really high doses I've noticed my lips twitch in a very unusual manner.... weird

It can be artificially manifactured and its scary af because the industry is so unregulated. Its basically RC territory https://jpharmsci.org/article/S0022-3549(15)41798-8/pdf

it had some unusual effects and was very strong without tolerance, but nothing like real opioids

when I stopped buying them there were also other pills that were absolutely RC opioids, both cheaper and stronger

they're still being sold as 7-OH but they aren't, from the vendor I was buying from

sad

even pure 7-OH is nowhere near as dangerous as real opioids

it's oddly a very powerful sedative and muscle relaxer, but still doesn't touch the lungs

if you have tolerance to other opioids, 7-OH feels weak

if you only have tolerance to kratom, it feels like a very strong hit of oxy but more of a sleeping pill.

interesting pseudo-opioid but not a great chemical of abuse

it also has zero of the mental euphoria that other kratom alkaloids like mit provides....