Codeine & CWE Megathread: Version II - [insert witty title]

[Sonny Jim]

"My liver is a-ok after getting hooked on this shit."

I have written in depth about exactly why this says absolutely NOTHING about how safe it will be for Conor The Alien. A clear liver function test is basically completely and utterly useless to determine the amount of damage one has accrued from a CWE cody addiction. There are a variety of reason for why this is quite true but I can't be bothered writing them all because I have probably already done so in older pages of this thread.

 

[Polluted_Mind]

That's why imo one should only use codeine preparations with ibuprofen in them, as if you do somehow screw it up, taking a large dosage of ibuprofen is far less damaging than if it was paracetamol.

Like my chemistry professor once said: if paracetamol was discovered today it wouldn't even be able to get approval by the FDA it's that hepatoxic.

 

[Captain Brewster]

I use para, mainly due to ongoing stomach issues.

If you do it properly theres not much to worry about in terms of apap overdose.

 

[footscrazy]

I'm with Sonny Jim on this one. Unfortunately, it's just not the case that even 'a bloody monkey' knows how dangerous a cdub can be. I think being on BL, surrounded by posters who for the most part know a lot more about drugs and safety than the average person, it's easy to overestimate how much the average person knows about drugs. By the very nature of BL, people here have at least some interest in harm reduction and the pharmacology of drugs, but I honestly think we're the minority. The world is full of people who don't know shit about drugs and don't care to learn, people who think that because you can buy paracetamol at safeway there's nothing dangerous about it, and people who'll eat a whole box of para/codeine pills because it'll get them high.

But even despite that, when it comes to something as potentially dangerous as a cwe, it makes sense to me to err on the side of caution. I don't really understand why people seem to get upset when the danger of cwe's is pointed out. Doing a cwe makes it safer, for sure, but there doesn't seem to be any reason I can think of to argue so vehemently against warning people of the very real dangers.

 

[junkie skumbag]

"My liver is a-ok after getting hooked on this shit."

I have written in depth about exactly why this says absolutely NOTHING about how safe it will be for Conor The Alien. A clear liver function test is basically completely and utterly useless to determine the amount of damage one has accrued from a CWE cody addiction. There are a variety of reason for why this is quite true but I can't be bothered writing them all because I have probably already done so in older pages of this thread.

"A clear liver function test is basically completely and utterly useless to determine the amount of damage one has accrued from a CWE"

"There are a variety of reason for why this is quite true but I can't be bothered writing them all because I have probably already done so in older pages of this thread"

i mean this in the nicest way i have to agree with Oxyuranus you seem to be overacting yes it CAN be risky doing a CWE when you dont know what your doing but if you follow the ways to do it on the first page and end up with a clear extraction you can use pretty often without significant damage to your liver.i have been using codeine for about 5 years plus now and my LFT was fine

i'd like to read the variety of reasons you have why a liver function test shows no damage to the liver from regular apap/codeine use

 

[Polluted_Mind]

i'd like to read the variety of reasons you have why a liver function test shows no damage to the liver from regular apap/codeine use

Same here, not saying it isn't true but just curious to know.

 

[Sonny Jim]

Originally Posted by junkie skumbag
i'd like to read the variety of reasons you have why a liver function test shows no damage to the liver from regular apap/codeine use

yes no worries.

One reason is simply that the bulk of damage done to us by ibuprofen does not include liver damage...it's much worse than that

 

[Black Rabbit of Inle]

Originally Posted by junkie skumbag
i'd like to read the variety of reasons you have why a liver function test shows no damage to the liver from regular apap/codeine use

yes no worries.

One reason is simply that the bulk of damage done to us by ibuprofen does not include liver damage...it's much worse than that

JS was asking about paracetamol not ibuprofen.

I'd take a clear liver function test (after heavy CWE abuse with para pills) as a sign that not much damage has occurred.

 

[footscrazy]

^ The point (at least to me), though, is that anecdotal evidence is effectively worthless. No conclusions can be drawn about the safety of a particular substance or extraction method through a handful of cases. For any meaningful data to be gleaned, a large sample size is needed, which is tested against controls, with other factors eliminated.

CWE's to me, fall under the precautionary principle - basically because the risk involved if a cdub does go wrong is so high, that the burden of proof falls on those claiming it's safe. In other words, cwe's have to be proven safe, not be proven dangerous.

 

[junkie skumbag]

Originally Posted by junkie skumbag
i'd like to read the variety of reasons you have why a liver function test shows no damage to the liver from regular apap/codeine use

yes no worries.

One reason is simply that the bulk of damage done to us by ibuprofen does not include liver damage...it's much worse than that

yeah im not talking about ibo mate.ibo would do damage to your stomach ulcers ect ect not much real damage to the liver APAP on the other hand could do some real damage if used wrong and you did say you have a VARIETY of reasons could you please give more than one reason why damage to your liver from APAP use would not show up on a liver function test thanks

again not trying to sound like a asshole im just interested in what your reasons are PLUR :D

 

[Sonny Jim]

footscrazy said it all better and nicer than this but I am going to lose my temper because I really feel the drama is warranted

I am honestly not sure about the asshole part, connor the alien could be and probably is quite young and I think your advice could have killed him or any other smart cautious but desperate kid looking for the ok to do it in the first place let alone use a fucking t-shirt to filter and don't tell me you told them to "use the first post in the thread" or what ever the fuck! why make it out to be safe when we all know it is not safe....

A liver function test is not an indication of the safety of CWE for a variety of reasons other than the perfectly valid (on it's own) reason already given about ibu....right?....because not everyone's going to be able to join the dots safely and know you meant paracetamol?

some more reasons are

the fact that you (who ever you are) tell us you had a clear liver function test simply does not mean paracetamol in the long term is safe to recommend to others. Even the manufacturers of the tablets who probably couldn't care less if you OD on them have made that fact clear on the packaging.

I am not saying that there is some tricky reason for why your liver function test means nothing. The reasons are obvious and aggravating to explain. Yes you had a clear liver function test but that means sweet fuck all to people who need to know the fact that it is lethal via the death of the liver.

I have read multiple people talk about how they take a pack of panadeine (not cwe) everyday and their liver function test is ok but that is simply not the norm. A 40 odd size pack is enough to kill an adult and doses below the "therapeutic' damage the liver....maybe not in you....at the time of the test........maybe they were ellevated but your doctor just ignored it as an alcoholic hangover and didn't bother to tell you....maybe you've lost half your kidney function since then....maybe not but you going about it the right way.

I know you think I am being paranoid because you feel fine but that just pisses me off even more.

I genuinely couldn't give a shit what you think of me, I just hope connor reads this and gives it a miss.

 

[Sonny Jim]

and please don't reply about how that's only actually one extra reason not really a variety.

edit:
or that I contradicted my self in the last part because I am pissed off...but I don't care

 

[Ashley]

yeah im not talking about ibo mate.ibo would do damage to your stomach ulcers ect ect not much real damage to the liver APAP on the other hand could do some real damage if used wrong and you did say you have a VARIETY of reasons could you please give more than one reason why damage to your liver from APAP use would not show up on a liver function test thanks

again not trying to sound like a asshole im just interested in what your reasons are PLUR :D

I'm interested as to why LFTs aren't accurate in terms of signifying liver damage, as well. I mean, a liver biopsy would indicate damage better than a liver function test, but really, that is a bit over the top just to determine the health of your liver after consuming CWEs. Though, I do recall a nurse telling me when I first sought treatment after I contracted Hepatitis C, not to pay too much attention to the LFT results as they can fluctuate greatly and the results do not always indicate the true extent of damage to the liver. However I am not sure if that is due to the nature of the Hep C virus and the way it behaves, or in general. As well as having a blood test and the doctor reviewing your LFTs, you could always request an ultrasound (FibroScan) of your liver, if you are worried that you have done damage to your liver. Thank fuck that they use the FibroScan machines (ultrasound) now to gauge the state of the liver, instead of the barbaric biopsy that was still common place up until a few years ago.

I always use ibuprofen/codeine preparations as opposed to paracetamol based combinations, due to paracetamol's toxicity. However, I agree that it is quite hard to botch a cold water extraction, unless you don't understand the basic concepts of solubility and why the process works. Of course, it is potentially dangerous performing an extraction but not to the degree that it has been made out in this thread in recent posts. Whilst you risk causing damage to your liver, especially with paracetamol based preparations, it is highly unlikely you will keel over if you botch a single extraction on a box of codeine tablets.

A.

 

[junkie skumbag]

footscrazy said it all better and nicer than this but I am going to lose my temper because I really feel the drama is warranted

I am honestly not sure about the asshole part, connor the alien could be and probably is quite young and I think your advice could have killed him or any other smart cautious but desperate kid looking for the ok to do it in the first place let alone use a fucking t-shirt to filter and don't tell me you told them to "use the first post in the thread" or what ever the fuck! why make it out to be safe when we all know it is not safe....

A liver function test is not an indication of the safety of CWE for a variety of reasons other than the perfectly valid (on it's own) reason already given about ibu....right?....because not everyone's going to be able to join the dots safely and know you meant paracetamol?

some more reasons are

the fact that you (who ever you are) tell us you had a clear liver function test simply does not mean paracetamol in the long term is safe to recommend to others. Even the manufacturers of the tablets who probably couldn't care less if you OD on them have made that fact clear on the packaging.

I am not saying that there is some tricky reason for why your liver function test means nothing. The reasons are obvious and aggravating to explain. Yes you had a clear liver function test but that means sweet fuck all to people who need to know the fact that it is lethal via the death of the liver.

I have read multiple people talk about how they take a pack of panadeine (not cwe) everyday and their liver function test is ok but that is simply not the norm. A 40 odd size pack is enough to kill an adult and doses below the "therapeutic' damage the liver....maybe not in you....at the time of the test........maybe they were ellevated but your doctor just ignored it as an alcoholic hangover and didn't bother to tell you....maybe you've lost half your kidney function since then....maybe not but you going about it the right way.

I know you think I am being paranoid because you feel fine but that just pisses me off even more.

I genuinely couldn't give a shit what you think of me, I just hope connor reads this and gives it a miss.

and please don't reply about how that's only actually one extra reason not really a variety.

edit:
or that I contradicted my self in the last part because I am pissed off...but I don't care

ummm why are you getting shitty with me for asking a few questions!? we are here to talk and learn about harm reduction not bitch on like its highschool grow up all i did was ask you to explain why you think it is so risky doing a CWE (wich you have in a pretty odd way) and i have offended you!?jesus crist take a valium or somthing.i NEVER told anyone to use a tee shirt to do a cold water extraction! i never use a tee shirt to do my cwe's i ALWAYS use doubled up coffee filters and filter my extractions til there crystal clear like water with minimal paracetamol in them.do your self a favor next time somone asks you a question about "facts" your posting dont have a little hissy fit. i was curious about the things you said in your comment so i asked in the nicest way i could a few questions. whats the big deal about that!? and you contradicted yourself in the last post and your reason for that is you dont care and are pissed off wow 8(
end rant

I'm interested as to why LFTs aren't accurate in terms of signifying liver damage, as well. I mean, a liver biopsy would indicate damage better than a liver function test, but really, that is a bit over the top just to determine the health of your liver after consuming CWEs. Though, I do recall a nurse telling me when I first sought treatment after I contracted Hepatitis C, not to pay too much attention to the LFT results as they can fluctuate greatly and the results do not always indicate the true extent of damage to the liver. However I am not sure if that is due to the nature of the Hep C virus and the way it behaves, or in general. As well as having a blood test and the doctor reviewing your LFTs, you could always request an ultrasound (FibroScan) of your liver, if you are worried that you have done damage to your liver. Thank fuck that they use the FibroScan machines (ultrasound) now to gauge the state of the liver, instead of the barbaric biopsy that was still common place up until a few years ago.

I always use ibuprofen/codeine preparations as opposed to paracetamol based combinations, due to paracetamol's toxicity. However, I agree that it is quite hard to botch a cold water extraction, unless you don't understand the basic concepts of solubility and why the process works. Of course, it is potentially dangerous performing an extraction but not to the degree that it has been made out in this thread in recent posts. Whilst you risk causing damage to your liver, especially with paracetamol based preparations, it is highly unlikely you will keel over if you botch a single extraction on a box of codeine tablets.

A.

thank you ash for a informed post i have had nothing but problems using ibo pills they always seem to clog up the filters take agessssssss to dissolve and filter and the end solution is always milky.it is quite simple to do a cwe but if you are a inexpirenced cwe'er/user what your doing it can be fucked up and the results can be deadly.if in doubt throw it out

 

[spacejunk]

ok guys, can we cool it please?
i think footscrazy summed things up quite perfectly if you want to go back and read her post.
an "all clear" on a liver function test from your GP is insufficient evidence
to deem this practice 'safe'.
the onus of proof should indeed be upon those that say it is safe. this is, after all, a harm minimisation site.
let's try to maintain a civil level of discussion.

 

[Ashley]

thank you ash for a informed post i have had nothing but problems using ibo pills they always seem to clog up the filters take agessssssss to dissolve and filter and the end solution is always milky.it is quite simple to do a cwe but if you are a inexpirenced cwe'er/user what your doing it can be fucked up and the results can be deadly.if in doubt throw it out

No worries old mate.

What brand of ibuprofen/codeine are you using? I always use Panafen Plus, as they dissolve very easily (i.e. you don't have to crush/grind the tablets prior to adding water), I usually just throw them in a water bottle, 100mL of cold water, pop the lid on and shake vigorously and they're all dissolved in about 5 minutes. If you add an ice cube or two it helps them dissolve quicker when shaking, for obvious reasons.

I always filter my solution very carefully, and you're right, with the ibuprofen/codeine preparations after filtering the solution is almost always cloudy. However, this is unlikely to be ibuprofen in the solution, but other inactive insolubles contained within the tablet such as binders and fillers, unless of course you used an excessive amount of water or a poor filter that failed to catch the undissolved solids. Also, ibuprofen is significantly less soluble in cold water than paracetamol, so it is safer by definition. Not to mention it is no where near as hepatoxic as paracetamol, ibuprofen is just really rough on the stomach. So if you do somehow manage to botch an extraction of ibuprofen based tablets, though I really don't understand how you could, after all it's not rocket science, then the ibuprofen is going to be far less damaging to your body. Unless you're prone to stomach problems, ulcers, etc. of course.

Also, don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting extracting a safe dose of codeine from a preparation containing an unsafe amount of paracetamol or ibuprofen is safe at all. This is why it is important to understand how the process actually works, don't rush it and pay attention to what you are doing - then you can greatly minimize the risk of a dangerous outcome.

Ash.

 

[Sonny Jim]

yeah ok JunkieScumbag I did say why I was going to lose my temper, I am sorry that meant it became an attack. It's not about you personally, definitely not in my mind, I understand that you sure as heck don't want to do wrong by anyone and are trying to help like most people here are.

and one last thing is that your crystal clear finished product gives zero indication of the amount of paracetamol in it. That's something I hacve explained before bt in short it is very easy to create a crystal clear solution via a botched CWE that contains a lethal dose of paracetamol because paracetamol is a white, colorless solid that readily dissolves completely in water to give a clear, bitter tasting solution.

edit:
though a crystal clear solution probably indicates that filtering of tablet particles was effective

 

[Polluted_Mind]

What brand of ibuprofen/codeine are you using? I always use Panafen Plus, as they dissolve very easily (i.e. you don't have to crush/grind the tablets prior to adding water), I usually just throw them in a water bottle, 100mL of cold water, pop the lid on and shake vigorously and they're all dissolved in about 5 minutes.

Yep that's exactly my routine as well, quick and efficient once you've done it many times and creates less of a clean-up. Only difference is that sometimes the pharmacy doesn't have Panafen Plus and so will give me a generic type brand with same ingredients. Never done the ice-cube trick before as always use very cold bottled water freshly bought from the store fridge, but will definitely give it a go and see what happens.

Oh and yeah PP definitely always gives a very cloudy filtrate, but because I always use the same dose I am used to knowing roughly how much residue should be left in the filter paper (about the the size of 2.5 golf balls while still wet from 60 tablets). This also made me think that it isn't really ibuprofen getting through in any significant/dangerous quantity but some sort of poorly soluble binder like anhydrous lactose. *Edit: just looked at the package and indeed it is lactose

I remember reading an actual Australian study a few years ago (have searched a couple of times since using both Google and subscription academic databases for it but just cannot find it!! ) which acknowledged the widespread recreational use of codeine by CWE in the country and looked into the safety of it. They found that the conventional fractional crystallization methods you find on the internet are like ~98% effective in removing paracetamol/ibuprofen, which is pretty good news for everyone on this thread.

 

[Sustanon]

All you guys are worried about the liver function tests but also forgetting the kidneys and stomach problems associated with Ibuprofen. Anything can cause the LFT's to increase even food so that test is inconclusive practically. An ultra scan would prob be a better option or an endoscopy but thats for a doctor to decide. Bottom line is that u have to be sure u are filtering correctly otherwise both can be lethal whether it is short or long term varies upon individuals.

 

[Sonny Jim]

yes and a lot of people for one reason or another tend to associate things like para and ibu with kidney, liver and gut damage only but...

Ibuprofen is a real killer, it's insidious because it fuck with important inflammatory pathways in the body that are important for tissue repair caused by trauma or ware and tare.

Among other thing this causes damage to blood vessel and this leads to some terribly massive increase in stroke and heart attack etc so it's kills ya and you don't have to OD it's the long term and short term effects of all NSAIDs.

I will look it up because I remember when the studies started coming out...big pharma corps got sued....shits still on the market...killing people in numbers that are not properly quantified because...well because the people that are supposed to watch over our meds and make sure that they aren't so poisonous that they kill huge numbers of people aren't putting up much fuss. I remember when the celebrex studies came out that got the big pharma behind it sued and it was kind of withdrawn from the market but I am pretty sure it remained a big seller still as are all NSAID.