Alcoholism discussion thread v. 5.0

[blahman8000]

She also brought up something that seemed a bit pointed towards me - intellectuals tend to have a much harder time with 12 step programs because they are quite simple, and people of an intellectual bent want to analyze it, understand why it works, etc. In her opinion, they try to make things more complicated than they actually are, and this interferes with what is a very simple, albeit difficult, process.

Not really sure how I'd respond if someone said this to me. I tried AA and didn't get a whole lot out of it. I'm sure my sobriety would have remained intact had I not gone. It was a good experience to listen to others and to speak my mind, but overall, it didn't have very much healing effect (if any) nor do I feel the need to show up very often. I think it's a little concerning that someone would shoot down those who opt to try and gain an understanding of a program that they're expected to depend on so much in the face of addiction. It sounds like she's simply asking you not to think too much about the flaws in AA and is considering it a flaw on your part to actually rationalize whether or not something is good for you.

For me, AA is a place I can go to if I want to speak my mind and go somewhere on a Saturday night instead of sitting at home craving a drink. And for that reason, it can be helpful. But beyond that, I don't really depend on it for anything else. I can't really seem to wrap my head around the "higher power" deal, no matter how many ways they explain it to me. And I haven't really followed the 12 steps at all. Certainly, though, others can get something helpful out of it. I've seen a lot of people swear by AA after nothing else worked for them. To each his own.

 

[sarcophagus.heels]

For me, AA is a place I can go to if I want to speak my mind and go somewhere on a Saturday night instead of sitting at home craving a drink. And for that reason, it can be helpful. But beyond that, I don't really depend on it for anything else. I can't really seem to wrap my head around the "higher power" deal, no matter how many ways they explain it to me. And I haven't really followed the 12 steps at all. Certainly, though, others can get something helpful out of it. I've seen a lot of people swear by AA after nothing else worked for them. To each his own.

That's the one thing I've been able to get out of it...it's better than staying at home and possibly being self-destructive, but I swear that I've left those meetings craving a drink even more than I had before I walked in. And yeah, her saying that I should just stop thinking about it and questioning the program set off some serious alarm bells. The support group aspect is great, but the actual 12 step thing is ringing very false for me.

 

[blahman8000]

The other really important thing to remember, that I forgot to mention before, is that you may be suffering some Post-Acute-Withdrawal Syndome (PAWS), whereby your moods are fluctuating quite a lot, and you're experiencing a bit of depression/anhedonia and impaired social skills. The good news is that over time you will definitely improve. You abused alcohol a fair bit, it's going to take time for your brain to heal

I've been reading up a bit of PAWS, and it does seem like I might be suffering from this. I can't say for sure. I really do hope that this is the case, because then at least I'll understand what's happening to me and I'll know that it won't last forever. I appreciate the info, n3o.

The anhedonia, obsessive thinking and memory deficits are particularly bad. More than ever I've found myself walking into a room without any idea why I decided to go in there. It's concerning me a lot. I'm still doing my very best to stay healthy, including adding fish oil tablets to my diet. Still staying sober, though, so I'm happy about that.

Hope everyone else is doing good.

 

[herbavore]

I'm a person that hates prescriptions of any kind, from how my peer group thinks I should act or dress to how a religion or a group with a dogma thinks I should think or behave. So I was very resistant to the twelve steps, to the higher power idea and even to the rules that were in place for keeping the meetings running smoothly. (I just couldn't say "hi, my name is...." before speaking ). I came in with my armor on and my dukes up, so to speak. What I realized is that just as with anything else, I could take what it offered without agreeing with everything hook, line and sinker. Christianity is not a religion I subscribe to and yet the "golden rule" (treat others as you yourself would want to be treated) is the basis for my own moral sense and one of the best pieces of wisdom I've encountered. The twelve steps are like that for me. I had no intention of following them in order or simply completing them like a checklist--but I could not argue with any of them as decent ideas for improving my life. Even the first step, which feels so problematic to those of us who are not religious became easy for me when I simply saw the higher power as the group itself. I went to the group for support for something that I had admitted finally I could not do on my own. That group, while not in agreement on anything really (it was quite a diverse group), acknowledged one thing: we were each others lifeline. Another way that I looked at the higher power was as my future self (or my higher self). My current self was wanting to curl up and die. My future self, the self I had faith existed, was able to put things in perspective and to take responsibility for changing what was not working.

One of the things that is so frustrating to me in life is black and white thinking. It just doesn't benefit anyone and causes such useless cycles of reaction to reaction to reaction. I think that the most dogmatic people in AA end up sometimes being the most vocal and so the whole thing gets seen through that lens. Staying around TDS will show you that there are many people that have benefited from AA/NA who are very complex thinkers that have taken what can be gained from the wisdom in these groups while asserting themselves and interpreting things in their own ways.

It is sad to me that more rehabs do not embrace Smart Recovery. I love everything about Smart Recovery and yet is often useless to people because there are so few meetings available. And we all know that the group support and the fact that you can plug in to AA?NA practically any hour of any day is one of its biggest advantages.I have to wonder if more rehabs embraced Smart Recovery if it wouldn't grow more quickly.

@Sarcophagus--to me it sounds like the person that told you that intellectuals have a harder time accepting AA has a chip on her shoulder. Questioning is always good. It is always useful though to check in with yourself and make sure that you aren't calling things questions that are firmly held opinions (not saying you are doing this---just know for me it is often something that I do).

Bottom line is that when all else is failing in your life to make a change you know you have to make, do not shut the door on anything. Try it all with an open mind, healthy skepticism, and plenty of humor!

(disclosure: my experience with the 12 steps is through al-anon which follows the same steps and procedures as AA?NA)

 

[Vaya]

She also brought up something that seemed a bit pointed towards me - intellectuals tend to have a much harder time with 12 step programs because they are quite simple, and people of an intellectual bent want to analyze it, understand why it works, etc. In her opinion, they try to make things more complicated than they actually are, and this interferes with what is a very simple, albeit difficult, process.

What people really mean when they say that it's a "simple process" is that, considered completely objectively, the process simple. The steps are written out and are easy to understand conceptually, and if one follows them to the best of one's ability, there is much reason to believe that one will gain much benefit.

However, it would be both impractical and even quite delusional of me to suggest that the steps of AA or NA are "simple." And this is because each of them is inextricably linked with our subjective experiences, emotions, circumstances and extent of addiction, amongst many many many other factors. Most of the people that I personally meet in the rooms have, at one point (or continually *raises hand* ) question the meaning of words in the 12 steps, the amount of emotional pain the process might entail, and resist the ideas of turning over one's will power, making amends to those wronged and the very extent of unmanageability that drugs and/or alcohol have caused in our lives.

I think your friend was speaking out of turn when she said that you should accept everything about the program at face value. Every one making this type of commitment has both the right and responsibility to question themselves along the way as needed or felt necessary - at least, in my eyes! I wanted to clarify, if I could, that one point, though. That was a statement (about the program but "simple but extremely difficult") that I struggled with a lot, too, until I discussed it openly with friends of mine in the program or one of my sponsors. I finally got what was being said but, as per my usual, I definitely overthought it along the way. I hope I could be of some help by writing this...

Take care,

~ Vaya

 

[bluedom]

How long did you drink and for how long have you been sober? i think it will take at least the half life of your addiction to START to feel normal. If you were using in an addicted manner for 5 years, it will take 2.5 years before you see the light at the end of tunnel. This is just my personal rule of thumb BTW.

Has anybody else experienced difficulty in conversation and "being yourself" after sobering up? I feel like all my confidence has kinda plummeted. When I was drunk, I spoke well and clearly. I articulated myself better and wasn't so hesitant and full of self-doubt. I feel like such a bore sometimes lately, like a very toned down version of myself. I feel like my personality is tedious and boring. It's like I have nothing to say, or when I do have something to say, it comes out wrong and it sounds stupid. I used to be considered a really funny guy, and now it seems like all my wit is gone for good. Like that part of me has dried out.

For the most part, my health is better than ever. I'm more motivated than ever. But I feel like a big part of me has been emptied out ever since I quit booze and drugs. I want to be fun to be around again. I don't think anybody even really likes me at all. It seems like people who talk to me or hang out with me (very few) just do so out of boredom, when there's nothing else to do. I highly doubt it has anything to do with me as a person. Hell, I've hung out with people that don't interest me before, in an effort to get out because it gets embarrassing staying home as much as I sometimes do. It seems like I'm just filler for a few other people's lives. Usually now, when I've said something, I feel like I should have just kept my mouth shut. When I finish a conversation, I feel like I made an idiot out of myself the whole time and I wonder why the other person wanted to talk to me at all. When I get home from going out, I feel like everyone I was around just thinks even less of me now.

 

[blahman8000]

How long did you drink and for how long have you been sober? i think it will take at least the half life of your addiction to START to feel normal. If you were using in an addicted manner for 5 years, it will take 2.5 years before you see the light at the end of tunnel. This is just my personal rule of thumb BTW.

Ah, wow. I drank a lot for about 5 years, but I drank daily and heavily for 3. Just quit a little over 2 months ago.

 

[PNPGUYNY]

drinking to compensate for an opiate habit i am one month clean from

i have not drank this heavily on a daily basis in years (although i have been a daily drinker for years), wine is my saviour and nemisis at the very same time it seems

Damn I really relate to that. Alcohol to me was always something used to come down from days of coke and the jitters or to kick the pills up a notch. When I have gotten off opiates 2 different times I found myself drinking as soon as I woke up. I drank vodka all the time and then as soon as I was back on dope I like barely drank.

 

[auto448]

Usually post in the EDD forum but spotted this thread and though I'd tell about myself.

35, been drinking taking drugs from about 16 (MDMA, Cocaine mostly) Got into Benzos a few years back and have developed a tolerance you would not believe. 1/2 of diazepam I wouldn't call a lot. Never been depended on booze or benzos.

Lately the benzos have stopped working really which I'm glad as its just pointless using them anymore. At this point I should state I use the recreationally so don't need them for anxierty or such. The insomnia after a binge takes about 3 weeks to get normal(ish) sleep again which is one of the main reasons I'm knocking that shit on the head.

I basically keep myself to myself these days so recreational drugs aren't much of a prolem maybe 3-4 times a year. For a few years I was burning it at both ends and think thinks might just be catching up on me.

Its the booze that's left to deal with. I don't drink near as much as I used to. I'd have partied for a week on end probably drinking 200+ units (UK) 100? (US) These days I just couldn't handle it. Now a days its more along the lines of 4-6 nights a week of maybe 6 beer (UK 11 units) (US 6 Units?) Think is the last few years I've started to fell it. Stomach/Liver pains, partly why I'm cutting down. I've had a LFT before which was clear and was at the docs yesterday for more blood tests as a day or 2 of drinking messes me up especially if on the rare occasion I over do it.

Anyway just though I's share. Hopefully I'll start to wise up in my old age

 

[PNPGUYNY]

My friend's parents are both alcoholics, one who's recovering and clean for about 2 years and the mom who has been addicted for about 30 years. She was clean for about 6 months and recently started drinking again. Within a week of her first relapse she's in the ICU on life support. As much as I hate her mom (she made fun of me being suicidal) I really do fear for her. I also fear for the sake of my friend's family. She has an nine year old sister.

My old man has a friend who was in AA sober for 41 years and started drinking again. In less then 6 months hes so bad that he is only functional 4-5 hours a day the rest of the time hes so drunk or blacked out. Its true when they say the disease waits for you and is still there.

 

[Cohesion]

Just an update.
Never drinking 2 days in a row.
When I do drink it's usually 2-3 beers.
Often going 2 days without.
I got 3 days in a row! It has been 5 months since that has happened.
I'm going to a meditation retreat this weekend so I'll have 4 days by the time that is over.

Bad news is I over took my Wellbutrin today. Feeling way weird and low now. I have been eating a LOT. But I can't complain. And that's not really something new anyway. At least it is usually super healthy and most of the time, some fancy vegetable concoction. Blah.

 

[blahman8000]

Just an update.
Never drinking 2 days in a row.
When I do drink it's usually 2-3 beers.
Often going 2 days without.
I got 3 days in a row! It has been 5 months since that has happened.
I'm going to a meditation retreat this weekend so I'll have 4 days by the time that is over.

Bad news is I over took my Wellbutrin today. Feeling way weird and low now. I have been eating a LOT. But I can't complain. And that's not really something new anyway. At least it is usually super healthy and most of the time, some fancy vegetable concoction. Blah.

Kudos on keeping the drinking to a minimum. Sobering up and getting healthy starts to feel pretty good after cutting down. In terms of overeating, I do the same a lot lately, but I too try to keep it healthy just so I don't feel lousy about it afterwards. I think I've successfully gotten myself addicted to raw veggies.

 

[Cohesion]

Yes the cravings are pretty much nil. It was only a few very terrible days that cravings became my mind.

Classical conditioning - extinction - it gets MUCH worse before it goes away completely.

 

[n3ophy7e]

^^ How are you going today mami? How was the meditation retreat? Congratulations on multiple days straight of being sober, it feels good huh


My update:
I've been sober for 6 weeks now, and it is going well. I was using xanax daily (only small doses, 1-2mg) for about 8 days in a row I think? But I've stopped that too now.

ALTHOUGH yesterday I went to lunch at my friend's parents' house. They are Croatian so they put on this massive feast and stuff, and his mum was constantly trying to feed us more and more and more. The kind of European mum you can't say no to Half-way through the meal they brought out this 52% liquor for us to try. I said "No thank you I'm driving....no thanks....no REALLY!" but somehow she still forced me to try a tiny little nip of it. It was seriously like less than a 1/3rd of a shot. That doesn't count....right?? I'm not counting it as drinking anyway :D

So....I'm still sober in my books

 

[S.M.F.G]

Stuff was pretty ok up untill my kid left for holidays...
since then i got abit messy on a few days, there was a bit of a hiccup and thus led to this super stressfull situation (I discussed it with one of the mods but dun wanna go into detail)...Kiddo has come back, ive gone down to one 750ml beer a day, my exersise routine has been thrown out of whack, I'm eating not the best compared to before... Feels like back to square one. Really good to come here and see stories of sobriety and moderation on a good note though. My motivation and drive have seemed to dissapear... I really need to be somewhere with someone who is gonna kick my ass for this sort of behaviour... I just cant burden them with that though, I know that theyd do it for me, but im stuck here in this csepool for another couple of months yet... If i dont crack this cycle im fearin it will cause some serious damage. I realy dun wanna lose my kid or g/f, hatin myself atm coz i know the right path and im not chosing it tha last week. Thats about all i have to tell.

 

[phactor]

Stuff was pretty ok up untill my kid left for holidays...
since then i got abit messy on a few days, there was a bit of a hiccup and thus led to this super stressfull situation (I discussed it with one of the mods but dun wanna go into detail)...Kiddo has come back, ive gone down to one 750ml beer a day, my exersise routine has been thrown out of whack, I'm eating not the best compared to before... Feels like back to square one. Really good to come here and see stories of sobriety and moderation on a good note though. My motivation and drive have seemed to dissapear... I really need to be somewhere with someone who is gonna kick my ass for this sort of behaviour... I just cant burden them with that though, I know that theyd do it for me, but im stuck here in this csepool for another couple of months yet... If i dont crack this cycle im fearin it will cause some serious damage. I realy dun wanna lose my kid or g/f, hatin myself atm coz i know the right path and im not chosing it tha last week. Thats about all i have to tell.

So that is what? A little more then two 12 ounce beers (American standard drink)? Can you try to go down to 12 or 16 ounces for a few days?

 

[phactor]

You - and everyone in this thread - deserves a sober and happy life. It's massively encouraging to see many TDS'ers realizing this, coming from both alcohol and opioid addictions.
You deserve this. You deserve to be sober.

I do have to say it feels like there are more recovered, moderating and overall happy people on TDS nowadays. 5 years ago tons of us who posted regularly were struggling pretty mightily.

 

[justsayknow]

I'm going to have a day off today. I mean one sober day. It doesnt seem like much but at least its one...
Trying to cut down my nictotine intake aswell it seems like that is going to be much harder than I thought. W/Ds is not something I thought I would get but now I know, bah!

 

[S.M.F.G]

@ phactor... one of our large beers is 2.7 standard drinks.

I did a little better today just one can. maybe only 1.3 standards

 

[motherofearth]

So Thursday through Saturday I binge drank ostensibly starting a few hours after I awoke each day. I'm realizing my body can't handle this anymore as I feel I've given myself acid reflux and my mouth is raw from getting so sick. It's been a couple days now since solid food has even been an option.

Once again, alcohol is not my friend in the post-opioid world. At least I'm almost back up to a week off heroin and somehow I still feel strong about that. But alcohol has never been this harsh on me. I'm reeling in pain and surprise, although I shoulda seen it coming....