Mass Psychedelic User Delusion/Denial

[Cwest]

I thinks its a good discussion bloodshed, unless you are concerned it will give psychedelics and some of the users a bad wrap? in this sense I agree as psychedelics already have way worse of a stigma than they deserve to the general population... on the other hand I do believe many users (not all) of psyches believe they are impervious until they take a little too much and end up with psychological or physical damage from their actions.

 

[bloodshed344]

I thinks its a good discussion bloodshed, unless you are concerned it will give psychedelics and some of the users a bad wrap? in this sense I agree as psychedelics already have way worse of a stigma than they deserve to the general population... on the other hand I do believe many users (not all) of psyches believe they are impervious until they take a little too much and end up with psychological or physical damage from their actions.

Well there needs to be a "denial" thread about every class of drugs because all this thread is doing is reiterating what is already reiterated over and over again. Maybe every drug discussion forum just needs a side effects and long term damage thread? I don't know. What I do know is that the title of this thread is offensive and the manner of discussion useless and an argument no one can win. It's a good basis for a discussion, you're right, but this thread is the wrong platform.

 

[Cwest]

fair enough.. I doubt this is going to change any minds either way, and I don't think it was meant to.. but this site is about harm reduction first, and this discusses some misconceptions and possibly harmful actions. I think it deserves to stay more than say some threads which are basically just "to do lists" (which I am a fan of btw lol)

 

[bloodshed344]

fair enough.. I doubt this is going to change any minds either way, and I don't think it was meant to.. but this site is about harm reduction first, and this discusses some misconceptions and possibly harmful actions. I think it deserves to stay more than say some threads which are basically just "to do lists" (which I am a fan of btw lol)

Yeah I posted a to do list not long ago. I like them more because they're exciting. This thread bores me. If anything we need a sticky titled "Potential dangers of psychedelics" with subsections like "phenethylamines, tryptamines, nbomes, ergoloids, arylcyclohexamines, others"

 

[trogere]

I have a few times had moments of synchronicity or extreme empathy where I me and a friend are about to say something completely random and both finish each others sentences (for example I was in a park and suddenly felt like I was surrounded by ghost like figures, I turned to my friend and said, "doesn't it seem like..." and he says "we are surrounded by ghosts" - many other examples of similar things). I've also had hallucinations which seem almost impossible that they are simply self generated by the mind (creative visualisation of music, like CEV vjing!). I also had a ++++ experience where the ground disappeared and turned to a matrix, as did the sky - and all my friends turned to flames of light, all that remained where the hills in the distance - I mentioned my experience here and someone pointed me to this picture by Alex Gray:

which depicts my visual experience perfectly apart from the figure in the center (which if I understand the new age chakra stuff correctly might be me?)

Despite all this I prefer to view these things as interesting coincidences, highlighting what your brain can really do and the extent that communication is non verbal ect -rather than going for a spiritual/"supernatural" explanation. I feel that it is easier to live in society and function normally if you take care to be sceptical, and don't get carried away with what may be delusional beliefs. Sorry bit of a ramble - but yeah. Psycs are powerful stuff, be careful that the insights you pull out of them are the right ones.

I had a similar experience. I was at a rave for New Year Eve, and did speed, LSD and ketamine. The day after, I went to an after-party, and popped 2 strange pills, and did K on top of it. When closing my eyes, I was seeing a matrix, with a view of the earth from space, and getting closer, with forests, ... and ending on a snowy road.

A hard weekend. One of my friends got into a maniac episode from the LSD, he belived the mayans were looking to attack him, and he stayed in that state for a few weeks. But he wasn't a mentally stable person before. Another friend did one pill of the same batch I took on the second day, and became very desillusional. She acted like she was working at a grocery store scanning items at the counter.

 

[FractalStructure]

I feel there is a level of delusional to the way some people use psychs. People that believe their DMT trips for example. I know someone who has a child in hyperspace and made love to an entity, and truly believes this. This kind of attitude isn't uncommon in the bigger psychedelic scene, especially with DMT for some reason

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Conversely, are you saying it didn't happen? Are you saying I didn't dream the dream I did last night? The dream-like state is often indistinguishable from a 'waking' state to the dreamer. Some people in their waking state are delusional and cannot tell they are in a dream...what is reality anyway? How do you know someone didn't make love to a DMT entitiy? Who has delusion now?

 

[limonov]

To a certain extent I do agree that the potential risks of psychedelic use is often underplayed by the 'true believers' to tend to be the ones out there advocating their use in lurid detail. Certainly I think it's undeniable that overdoing it with psychedelics can have often highly debilitating effects on users- I mean we've had at least 50 years of acidfucked former users struggling to lead normal lives. Not all of these people can have had latent mental illnesses...HPPD and associated psychedelic-induced brain damage is no well understood- certainly until the restrictions around studying controlled drugs are loosened we're unlikely to see any large, conclusive studies.

In addition I think that the psychedelic amphetamines/phenethylamines are more problematic on a whole than typtamines/ergolines. This is based on a lot of people having fried themselves irreversably and undeniably due to ingesting a single overdose of a DOX compound, as well as a handful of people frying themselves from binging on 2C-X compounds. Once again, some could have been due to latent mental illness but I doubt it'd explain them all. But certainly since the 2C-X's have become available & common in the scene there has been an undeniable increase in the number of psychedelic burn outs. DOX's, particularly when misrepresented, did that sort of damage but LSD really didn't unless you went completely overboard. But apart from HPPD, which is more a symptom-cluster than an actual diagnosis, I simply don't think a lot of this sort of stuff has been studied with any degree of detail- mainly because of the barriers and restrictions to doing this research. All psychedelics have no medical use- makes it difficult.

I also freely admit that everything I've said is based solely on my observations over several decades of being a part of 'the scene' (as such).

On the flip side, psychedelics are still fairly safe compared to a lot of drugs. All drug use has risks- particularly when you're using drugs under prohibition. Psychedelics really don't create the collateral damage like all the drugs with a worse addiction profile. You can damage yourself binging or taking megadoses, but most people have no interest in doing that...the likelihood that you're going to do yourself lasting harm from a single appropriate dose of a psychedelic is fairly low. Not impossible, but it's more likely that you'd hurt yourself rather than the drug hurting you- and even that doesn't happen that often. Certainly not compared to heroin and IV cocaine users falling out, even MDMA (which I don't consider a psychedelic) appears to have a greater likelihood of causing lasting damage or death through a number of modes of action.

So while you shouldn't ignore let alone try to deny or cover up the potential risks- particularly if you're taking large doses or binging on psychedelics (even just at a festival over a few days)...but even if you exaggerate the risks a bit then it's still considerably safer than amphetamines or even MDMA (which can cause overheating depending on dose/circumstances), which makes it considerably safer than opiates/GHB/downers/alcohol which can all kill a user without tolerance.

I don't think it's a delusion as such, it's more part of the 'psychedelic myth'. People tend to forget that 'tools for spiritual development' can be as dangerous as a bandsaw or some other 'tool for worldly development'. Much props to the OP for generating such a good discussion.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Awesome, awesome post. Seconded!

To a certain extent I do agree that the potential risks of psychedelic use is often underplayed by the 'true believers' to tend to be the ones out there advocating their use in lurid detail. Certainly I think it's undeniable that overdoing it with psychedelics can have often highly debilitating effects on users- I mean we've had at least 50 years of acidfucked former users struggling to lead normal lives. Not all of these people can have had latent mental illnesses...HPPD and associated psychedelic-induced brain damage is no well understood- certainly until the restrictions around studying controlled drugs are loosened we're unlikely to see any large, conclusive studies.

In addition I think that the psychedelic amphetamines/phenethylamines are more problematic on a whole than typtamines/ergolines. This is based on a lot of people having fried themselves irreversably and undeniably due to ingesting a single overdose of a DOX compound, as well as a handful of people frying themselves from binging on 2C-X compounds. Once again, some could have been due to latent mental illness but I doubt it'd explain them all. But certainly since the 2C-X's have become available & common in the scene there has been an undeniable increase in the number of psychedelic burn outs. DOX's, particularly when misrepresented, did that sort of damage but LSD really didn't unless you went completely overboard. But apart from HPPD, which is more a symptom-cluster than an actual diagnosis, I simply don't think a lot of this sort of stuff has been studied with any degree of detail- mainly because of the barriers and restrictions to doing this research. All psychedelics have no medical use- makes it difficult.

I also freely admit that everything I've said is based solely on my observations over several decades of being a part of 'the scene' (as such).

On the flip side, psychedelics are still fairly safe compared to a lot of drugs. All drug use has risks- particularly when you're using drugs under prohibition. Psychedelics really don't create the collateral damage like all the drugs with a worse addiction profile. You can damage yourself binging or taking megadoses, but most people have no interest in doing that...the likelihood that you're going to do yourself lasting harm from a single appropriate dose of a psychedelic is fairly low. Not impossible, but it's more likely that you'd hurt yourself rather than the drug hurting you- and even that doesn't happen that often. Certainly not compared to heroin and IV cocaine users falling out, even MDMA (which I don't consider a psychedelic) appears to have a greater likelihood of causing lasting damage or death through a number of modes of action.

So while you shouldn't ignore let alone try to deny or cover up the potential risks- particularly if you're taking large doses or binging on psychedelics (even just at a festival over a few days)...but even if you exaggerate the risks a bit then it's still considerably safer than amphetamines or even MDMA (which can cause overheating depending on dose/circumstances), which makes it considerably safer than opiates/GHB/downers/alcohol which can all kill a user without tolerance.

I don't think it's a delusion as such, it's more part of the 'psychedelic myth'. People tend to forget that 'tools for spiritual development' can be as dangerous as a bandsaw or some other 'tool for worldly development'. Much props to the OP for generating such a good discussion.

 

[pofacedhoe]

Once you get down to it, and look at what this thread is about and what the responses are you realize: This thread is worthless, and needs to be closed. Furthermore nothing useful was said in it.

your post was worthless

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^As is the one you just made, you know what Jesus said, don't try to remove the twig from your neighbor's eye until you remove the log from your own.

Yeesh, MGS, ya really need to quote the whole thing. 8(

what is reality anyway?

Philip K. Dick once wrote, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

To a certain extent I do agree that the potential risks of psychedelic use is often underplayed by the 'true believers' to tend to be the ones out there advocating their use in lurid detail.

I also take this stance, with qualifications. Not only for the reasons you mentioned, but for the temporary development of maladaptive behaviors/thought patterns (tuning, turning on, and very nearly dropping out) amongst "true believers".

A lot of the people advocating the benefits of these psychs are young/not-settled-down themselves, directionless, and in general focusing on psychedelic/mystic topics to the detriment of their real (or mundane, to phrase it less provocatively) lives. On the other hand, the scene itself seems to attract the aimless and yearning. It's impossible to say how things would have turned out had they lived differently, so my speculation could be a bunch of baloney; rethinking one's purpose/goals isn't a bad thing either, even if it takes a while.

What do you geezers think? I mean, wise and experienced older gentlemen, or ladies as the case may be.

 

[bloodshed344]

your post was worthless

Like Never Knows Best said yours is also. Mine at least contributed a significant point.

I just think that implying that the psych community is mostly delusional (thats what I got from the word 'Mass' at least) is inappropriate.

 

[nuke]

^As is the one you just made, you know what Jesus said, don't try to remove the twig from your neighbor's eye until you remove the log from your own.

Yeesh, MGS, ya really need to quote the whole thing. 8(



Philip K. Dick once wrote, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."



I also take this stance, with qualifications. Not only for the reasons you mentioned, but for the temporary development of maladaptive behaviors/thought patterns (tuning, turning on, and very nearly dropping out) amongst "true believers".

A lot of the people advocating the benefits of these psychs are young/not-settled-down themselves, directionless, and in general focusing on psychedelic/mystic topics to the detriment of their real (or mundane, to phrase it less provocatively) lives. On the other hand, the scene itself seems to attract the aimless and yearning. It's impossible to say how things would have turned out had they lived differently, so my speculation could be a bunch of baloney; rethinking one's purpose/goals isn't a bad thing either, even if it takes a while.

What do you geezers think? I mean, wise and experienced older gentlemen, or ladies as the case may be.

Here are my thoughts almost 10 years on (which was when I started; last time using a psychedelic was 6 years ago):
- Psychedelic experiences are still remembered as some of the more interesting ones in my lifetime.
- Psychedelics are invaluable not for the "insights" that you experience during a trip, but for revealing the unlikeliness and lack of utility that actual real life "insights" on a day to day basis may have. They allow you to take apart your brain and see how they're working piece by piece. Too often humans like to point a finger one way or the other; psychedelics teach you about the personal responsibility you have in the construction of your own reality.
- They have additional value in teaching one to deal with strong emotions and to work through painful experiences in ways that are healthy, beyond the duration of the experience.
- They appear to eventually cause some spiritual experiences in most users.
- Psychedelics are rarely associated with long term psychosis, of which the etiology is not really known or understood well.

Psychedelics are not:
- Your doorway to another dimension.
- Your key to determining "who you really are" beyond that "who you really are" is kind of meaningless and changes a lot.
- A pathway to enlightenment.
- A surefire cure for sociopathy, mental disorders, unhappiness.
- Entirely predictable in effect.

The end of the day message for me was that psychedelics are tools for understanding the way your brain works and seeing what happens when you subject it to some truly strange chemistry; they build human character and compassion similar to any other harrowing, adventurous experience. Most of the mythoi surrounding psychedelics I would guess are a product of counterculture. This was an unnecessary transformation caused by the removal of science from psychedelic drug investigation by the law, leaving only non-scientists to interpret the effects of the drugs.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Perfection in a post! Thank you for adding to this thread.

 

[Magickduck]

Here are my thoughts almost 10 years on (which was when I started; last time using a psychedelic was 6 years ago):
- Psychedelic experiences are still remembered as some of the more interesting ones in my lifetime.
- Psychedelics are invaluable not for the "insights" that you experience during a trip, but for revealing the unlikeliness and lack of utility that actual real life "insights" on a day to day basis may have. They allow you to take apart your brain and see how they're working piece by piece. Too often humans like to point a finger one way or the other; psychedelics teach you about the personal responsibility you have in the construction of your own reality.
- They have additional value in teaching one to deal with strong emotions and to work through painful experiences in ways that are healthy, beyond the duration of the experience.
- They appear to eventually cause some spiritual experiences in most users.
- Psychedelics are rarely associated with long term psychosis, of which the etiology is not really known or understood well.

Psychedelics are not:
- Your doorway to another dimension.
- Your key to determining "who you really are" beyond that "who you really are" is kind of meaningless and changes a lot.
- A pathway to enlightenment.
- A surefire cure for sociopathy, mental disorders, unhappiness.
- Entirely predictable in effect.

The end of the day message for me was that psychedelics are tools for understanding the way your brain works and seeing what happens when you subject it to some truly strange chemistry; they build human character and compassion similar to any other harrowing, adventurous experience. Most of the mythoi surrounding psychedelics I would guess are a product of counterculture. This was an unnecessary transformation caused by the removal of science from psychedelic drug investigation by the law, leaving only non-scientists to interpret the effects of the drugs.

I agree with you on most of this.... mostly on the fact that these are tools and not toys, yet they are not a magical cure as so many of us have thought at one time or another... this thinking leads to bad cycles which can lead to delusion. However, they can be a magical cure IF we learn to implement the experience in our everyday life.

however, they can certainly be doors into another dimension - and can be valuable tools in the alchemical world - as they are powerful energies in which their effects change based on intent.

and I guess my main point would be to add:

Psychedelics ALSO can be:

- very mentally damaging if abused
- lead to delusional thought process that may not be recognized as 'not real' for many years
- a doorway for negative or harmful spirits to mess with our heads
- a tool for brainwashing (as psychedelics tend to create tons and tons of small little 'cults' surrounding them - in large groups as well as small ones)

 

[Magickduck]

Nope, never happened to me. Must be something ONLY LSD does. Because I've tripped over a hundred times on quite a few different drugs.

yes I find LSD to do this specifically much more... and trips about God/the universe/entitys/being God and other things of that sort or extremely tripped out experiances thinking you are jesus or mother mary seems to happen much more often on LSD than say mushrooms or any of the RC's.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Getting down to semantics I guess, splitting hairs...but I'd argue the doors are always there as are the dimensions...psychedelics are not needed to reach them....however they are probably the fastest and most convenient means of reaching them.

Re: Magic cures.....yeah psychedelics don't cure anything until one brings up the iboga aspect. Even outside of the whole 'addiction' angle, things in my brain were fixed that I never knew were broken. I've touched on some aspects in my iboga report...when I say cured...these are issues I never knew iboga could/would address, never had any 'intent' to 'fix' in the first place....and no follow up 'work' has been needed to maintain the repairs. I know what I speak of is real because my friends and family all agree and notice these things too but I know all of this will carry more weight in 6months time, 1 year time and I certainly will be updating my iboga report as time goes along. For the moment, I will place iboga along with DMT in the category of 'not at all LSD-like' which is funny since I know in my report I compared the trip to LSD very often.....ahh dualism...what a wonderful concept.

however, they can certainly be doors into another dimension - and can be valuable tools in the alchemical world - as they are powerful energies in which their effects change based on intent.

 

[eLeSaH]

Psychedelics are not:
- A pathway to enlightenment.

I disagree. There are special psychedelic trips, which were enlightening for me and changed my life and personality to the better.
BUT I think that this is only possible with a combination of two psychoactive compounds. I tried different psychedelics already and this "white light" experiences only worked with one particular combination. Some people tend to just dose high but that is not the "smart" way imho. Higher doses just add to the "mindfuck".


Generally with psychedelics I feel woken up during a trip but when I slowly come down I experience how the clarity goes away and gets replaced by my buzzing tinitus again.

"- Your doorway to another dimension."
Certainly psychedelics are the key for the doorway to inner dimensions. Beeing real or not is a completely different topic but straight denying is like denying dreams.

"- Your key to determining "who you really are" beyond that "who you really are" is kind of meaningless and changes a lot."
When I was young I was not conscious enough about myself, the world and life in general. Psychedelics gave me the power, not the thoughts, to think about everything in a new light and with a deeper understanding.
Sure it changes a lot but that is good

 

[Sin-thetic]

With the obvious exceptions of research chemicals like NBOMe, psychedelics are unlikely to kill you. They CAN, however, seriously distort your view of reality, and many and more who use psychedelics end up with some kind of unorthodox views about religion, space, aliens, etc. What amazes me about psychedelics is that even seemingly level-headed people can go into a trip and come out completely believing what their imagination produces, while some people whom may have been "off" or in the clouds before can come out of trips as much more level-headed people. Though after their first trip many people know what they're going into, from a psychological tool perspective I've always seen it as akin to Russian Roulette with your psyche - a quarter of shrooms ended my 1.5 year major depression, but we likely all know someone who went down the rabbit hole and it seems like only part of them came back, or something in the gooey CPU had a system error and now aliens/Jesus/reptilians are trying to contact them. Like dreams, imagination, etc., psychedelics can offer interesting introspection, but any "revelations" found in the experience should be taken with a hearty tablespoon of salt. As much fun as exploring the ego and mind is, try to put yourself in the shoes of people outside the scene, looking in. I like psychedelics, but I don't blame people when they think I'm nuts for using them, when all they've observed from the scene is mysticism and madness.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I don't blame people when they think I'm nuts for using them, when all they've observed from the scene is mysticism and madness.

"An unjust man is abominable to the righteous, And he who is upright in the way is abominable to the wicked." -Proverbs 29:27

Take that as you will.