Mass Psychedelic User Delusion/Denial

[Thorns Have Roses]

But there seem to be far too many users with the idea that psychedelics CAN'T do harm. There are so many users that seem to think that psychedelics can't be used for fun, they should only be used for introspective personal growth.

I see these as two opposed schools of thought. I think people advise against recreational usage and support only therapeutic/spiritual use because they are aware of the risks involved...it's sort of like a User Agreement (I acknowledge that tripping can fuck me up, and will take it seriously). Also a lot of the stuff seemingly denying harm is actually aimed towards helping people accept what has happened and move on (integration of the experience).

Of course many of'em are loony New Agers to boot.

I've heard several firsthand accounts of people who under the influence of shrooms or LSD suddenly got gripped with an overwhelming selfdestructive urge that made some of them commit serious suicide attempts on the spot.

I don't think tripping is exceptional in this regard. Heavy emotional situations make some people suicidal (breakups, loss of career, anomie, etc. etc.).

 

[down508]

Depends on use, the individual, whether they are predisposed to mental illness, etc. Problem is you never know if it will become a problem until it does.

People in this forum especially think lsd is safe because theres no ld50 and it isnt acutely toxic in normal doses, but i think it can be more mentally/emotionally damaging than any other drug, especially when aomething traumatic happens while someone is on it. Just because it wont kill you outright if you o/d doesnt make it safe.

 

[rickolasnice]

what is a bad trip anyway?

Very wide spectrum. Anything which proves to be a negative experience.. from an anxiety filled trip, to coming to a wrong conclusion about something to experiencing personal hell.. having delusional, paranoid thoughts, completely losing all sense of reality and being left with a severe anxiety disorder and depression for months afterwards.

but if people leave their preconceived notions of psychedelia at the door when they take them, they'd have a much better time IMO

I've personally seen this statement turn out to be bullcrap. Many of my friends have been, are and were very experiences with psychedelics and there are a good few of them that have had bad trips with 2 or 3 of them leaving them with long lasting psychological issues (and no there was no bullshit part of themselves they were refusing to accept or anything like that)

You can't deny that psychedelics will quite often make you come up with absurd ideas or reasons behind things and they are not so easily disregarded as mindless bull (even though that is all they were.. from reading someones emotions / intentions wrong to thinking you have some kind of godly power over a crowded room) .. This can turn out to be seriously harmful.

 

[rpm]

I do believe I am brain damaged yes. I do believe it will heal however, I do not think it is permenant. And I was feeling as you are, in the past. I still have communications from the divine, all that jazz. Its beauitiful and am very happy to be one of those that experiance life in this way. However at some point, (i also started studying in the occult) some of these communications got dark and twisted and very confusing. I dont know if it was bad spirits or the drugs, but yeah, it drove me nuts for a bit...... I am doing much better now but still have internal struggles.



I agree, I have this same theory, I have posted about it before. Most of the people I know who seem to have permenant psychedelic experiances going on started tripping very young (for me, I was 15). I had a pretty constant intake of psychedelics for years, I am 20 now. I think that (ab)using them often while the brain is developing has something to do with this.

Now I never took large doses, either. Maybe 2-3 hits of 100-150ug stuff, at the most 4 ever.

I hear what you are saying about the dangers of psychedelics. As has been said before any drug can cause issues in the right person/wrong dose. However, strong psychedelics are more likely to cause mental issues in some people. (I know you say you are not mentally ill, but I'm meaning more generally - read neural damage if you like - there is plenty of plasticity in the brain so the neurological is subject to change and is only another way of talking about the mental [with some obvious caveats]) The point here is some. If you think about the response to a drug as a bell curve (normal distribution), with the the mean at a point where most people experience no long term effect, research shows that there is a small hump in the curve way of to one side curve. This represents the users who will experience psychotic episodes, psychosis, hppd, and other serious chronic metal problems triggered by use. Unfortunately you don't know you fall into that group till you get there. At the same time, for a large portion of users there are few ill effects.

At the same time it's not all just who you happen to be in my opinion. Risks can be managed by starting small, taking time out to reintegrate experience, learning from mistakes, and if you are unfortunately one of the people who's brains just aren't made for these drugs stopping all together.

My advice to you is to give yourself time to reintegrate your experiences. If you can afford it therapy is a great way of doing this. If not try meditation. 8 years ago, when I was first experimenting with hallucinogens I took to much too often, culminating in a really bad trip where I downed a bottle of acid (100 hits - I was already tripping too hard to know why I did this in any real world way). I ended up in hospital pumped full of vallium. The police had to literally drag me their and thank my lucky stars they never pressed charges for assault (I thought they where the agents of satan sent to take me away). After that I had some of the symptoms you describe, persistent visuals particularly while stressed, flash backs (often in dreams - feeling that I was falling into a void and that I was both the devil and god and the world was ending) and other stuff. I started to have some quite magical thoughts about the world, psychic powers, my role in it ect. Thankfully I started going to meditation, and got some free counselling from my uni. Within 6 months the serious side effects had stopped. Within 2 years the flashbacks and most of the magical thinking had stopped. After three years I started to trip again and found it easier to control and less scary (I suppose I have faced the worst, lost my ego and come back, what else it there to fear but death?). I have never looked back - I trip irregularly, perhaps 3-4 times a year. I still meditate. All this allows me to function without any real problems and some great insights from psychedelic use.

I hope you can follow a similar path to mine, and not get to tangled up in the magical thoughts ect that lead to schizophrenia or at least difficulty functioning in the real world. All the best.

Of course many of'em are loony New Agers to boot.

loony New Ager, moi? I'll see your loony new Ager and raise it one pair of Aged new loonys and a three cosmic consciousness fnord.

(ps. I realize your post wan't aimed at me at all, but I share some of these beliefs as I have just posted - particularly re: integration of experiences)

I hear what he's saying about the dangers of LSD. I used to take mushrooms 2 or 3 times a week for several years, and I've seen nothing but a perfecting of my mental bliss-aura, so I think that the dangers must be substance specific, and the divine mushroom has left my soul-ar glow intact and perhaps more radiant than pre-divine-mushroom exposure. All of this gives testament to aura-augmentation with psilocybian mushrooms, so please don't generalize.

Each to his own, but I have seen similar problems in others with heavy mushroom use. Personally I find mushrooms to be a much more stable experience, and have never had a seriously bad trip with them. But if I pushed myself to the places you are talking about (for serious, you've been doing this? Congratulations on being a fully functioning human with only slightly divergent beliefs to my own [no dig intended, I don't think my beliefs are necessarily any more true than yours a priori]) with them I would definitely be getting into seriously unstable territory if not locked up.

I suppose it's a case of know your body; know your mind.

- on the other hand I suspect a fnord in your writings.

 

[donvliet]

Drugs are like chainsaws. They can be dangerous, or valuable tools. It largely depends on the user.

 

[rpm]

I wouldn't discount that - how could I?

Never discount your own experience, but then never discount the reported experience of others. I myself have seen auras on LSD, but my skeptical mind puts this for now in the "neither proven nor dis-proven" pile.

 

[electrodevo]

The fact this belief is so common among psych users is what makes it interesting, i came to the conclusion myself, then i heard Bill Hicks tell his version and i was amazed that someone thought the same thing.

Psychedelic experiences and the more natural mystical experience (that often comes when a body is under great stress -- see near death experiences etc.) seem to have quite a few similarities to them, don't they? Reality for psychedelics is that it's just a chemical is just pushing a few "buttons" in the synapses in your brain. Neuropharmacology kind of takes the "we are all one" New Ageness out of it...

can't face that your sense of reality is fluid and changing? that your brain just interprets sensory data to create your reality and you are the reference point? Those are some scary ideas to some people but if people leave their preconceived notions of psychedelia at the door when they take them, they'd have a much better time IMO.

Some people prefer certain receptors to be tickled than others. If I lived in the time of shamans, I'd probably prefer ibogaine over ayahuasca, y'know. And some people may be *real* sensitive to certain receptors being tickled. That's the main problem, you never know. (Which is why it's always best to start at low doses before diving *too* deep into the rabbit hole...)

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Psychedelic experiences and the more natural mystical experience (that often comes when a body is under great stress -- see near death experiences etc.) seem to have quite a few similarities to them, don't they?

It seems that way, doesn't it? In fact, here is an article summarizing peer reviewd journal articles (that include DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES) examining the mystical experience phenomenon.

http://brainblogger.com/2012/02/27/drug-induced-mystical-experience/

Since clicking on links and absorbing the information within seems to be troublesome to this forum I will highlight some of the text.....

Research on psilocybin administration in humans has occurred in psychotherapeutic contexts in terminally ill cancer patients dating back to the 1970s and continues today. A surprising new study reveals that, under specific conditions, acute exposure to psilocybin can elicit long-lasting positive changes and increases in mystical-type experience.

At 14 months after the last drug session, study volunteers were interviewed to gain information about their study experiences and life situation.....The long-term effects of the psilocybin sessions are perhaps even more striking. At 14 months after initial drug exposure, study volunteers rated significant dose-related effects of the drug sessions. These included positive ratings of attitudes about life and the self, mood, social and behavioral effects, well-being, life satisfaction, spirituality, a sense of continuity after death, as well as the personal and spiritual meaningfulness of the drug experience. In addition, at this time, the positive ratings reported about states of consciousness and mystical experience at seven hours after initial drug exposure were still present.

Interestingly, at this time, most volunteer questionnaires about the drug experience indicated increased physical and psychological self-care, as well as increased spiritual practice. Post-study ratings of study volunteers by study monitors and community observers at 14 months after initial drug exposure were consistent with all of the aforementioned changes. Importantly, clinical interviews with study volunteers indicated that none reported clinically significant post-study adverse events or non-study hallucinogen use since study enrollment. At this time, all of the study volunteers appeared to be psychologically healthy, high-functioning, productive members of society.

Remarkably, most of the study volunteers (including the volunteer who experienced the highest level of transient psilocybin-induced anxiety) rated the highest dose drug sessions as the single most personally meaningful and spiritually significant event of their lives. This psilocybin-induced spirituality appears similar to that reported in case studies of individuals reporting spontaneous mystical experience. The authors suggest that, based on these and other studies, therapeutic use of psilocybin may be clinically useful in psychiatric settings when administered under specific, controlled conditions, but acknowledge that this is controversial.

 

[rpm]

Psychedelic experiences and the more natural mystical experience (that often comes when a body is under great stress -- see near death experiences etc.) seem to have quite a few similarities to them, don't they? Reality for psychedelics is that it's just a chemical is just pushing a few "buttons" in the synapses in your brain. Neuropharmacology kind of takes the "we are all one" New Ageness out of it...

Why does the fact that a spiritual state have a neural correlate have any bearing on the purported spiritual element? I wouldn't expect people to feel life changing spiritual events with no discernible difference in their brain patterns - that would break the physical laws of the universe as we know them so far. I expect that the spiritual element would be something that might go over and above the physical (don't want to sound too duelist - this isn't a full philosophical view). It a bit like if when newton discovered gravity existed, the scientists wen't - "ahhh, but you can see the apple falling according to the laws of the world as we know them, doesn't that take the edge of this gravity claim?".

Physical, mental and (if there is such a thing) spiritual must all be connected and working together to produce the world as we see it.

 

[RobotRipping]

it's just interesting that they have similarities; can't really draw any conclusions from it and it's kind of strange. There's really nothing necessarily spiritual or mystical about these experiences. We only need these physical bodies to produce our sense of reality. Mysticism is what brought me to psychedelics in the first place.

yes psychedelics can cause some psychological harm to some people; it's tough to tell whether they cause anxiety/panic disorders though from bad trips, that person could have developed such disorders anyway. If you have some heavy emotional shit going on you shouldn't trip unless you're prepared to deal with it. I've had what are considered 'bad trips' filled with anxiety/paranoia but they weren't really 'bad', they kind of sucked but getting hit over the head with things that are bothering you or causing you problems, which lead to anxiety, is a good way to find out what you need to work on.

These are not recreational drugs for fun (though you can use them for that if you want), they are tools that need to be respected and revered. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. They aren't benign psychologically by any means, the vast majority of people who are psychonauts don't have issues other than the ones they had before but still, you never know if someone is going to lose their shit on a psych, which is why i don't like to share them often. It also takes a certain kind of personality to want to break down the walls of reality. Most people i know are afraid of psychedelics, not from propaganda but because they tried them and scared the shit out of themselves.

You can't deny that psychedelics will quite often make you come up with absurd ideas or reasons behind things and they are not so easily disregarded as mindless bull (even though that is all they were.. from reading someones emotions / intentions wrong to thinking you have some kind of godly power over a crowded room) .. This can turn out to be seriously harmful.

i can deny that for myself anyway, sure i think of strange things but so what? i do that normally anyway. I don't believe i get psychic powers from psychedelics or that i can fly or any of that bullshit. I think a very small minority of psych users become delusional like that. That is in no way representative of my psychedelic experiences, even with DMT, iboga, salvia, 5-meo-dmt or other hard hitting psychs. I don't think i've ever had an experience during a psychedelic trip that made me delusional like that.

I remain objective while on psychs, if i end up immersed in a +4 experience then i'm usually alone and not causing any harm. Even smoking DMT/salvia/5-meo-dmt by myself, never had any issues whatsoever except drooling on myself. I had a trip sitter on iboga and was definitely out of this world but i didn't experience complete ego loss or anything and it was fine the 3 or so times i tripped on it.

 

[rpm]

i can deny that for myself anyway, sure i think of strange things but so what? i do that normally anyway. I don't believe i get psychic powers from psychedelics or that i can fly or any of that bullshit. I think a very small minority of psych users become delusional like that. That is in no way representative of my psychedelic experiences, even with DMT, iboga, salvia, 5-meo-dmt or other hard hitting psychs. I don't think i've ever had an experience during a psychedelic trip that made me delusional like that.

I have a few times had moments of synchronicity or extreme empathy where I me and a friend are about to say something completely random and both finish each others sentences (for example I was in a park and suddenly felt like I was surrounded by ghost like figures, I turned to my friend and said, "doesn't it seem like..." and he says "we are surrounded by ghosts" - many other examples of similar things). I've also had hallucinations which seem almost impossible that they are simply self generated by the mind (creative visualisation of music, like CEV vjing!). I also had a ++++ experience where the ground disappeared and turned to a matrix, as did the sky - and all my friends turned to flames of light, all that remained where the hills in the distance - I mentioned my experience here and someone pointed me to this picture by Alex Gray:

which depicts my visual experience perfectly apart from the figure in the center (which if I understand the new age chakra stuff correctly might be me?)

Despite all this I prefer to view these things as interesting coincidences, highlighting what your brain can really do and the extent that communication is non verbal ect -rather than going for a spiritual/"supernatural" explanation. I feel that it is easier to live in society and function normally if you take care to be sceptical, and don't get carried away with what may be delusional beliefs. Sorry bit of a ramble - but yeah. Psycs are powerful stuff, be careful that the insights you pull out of them are the right ones.

 

[bloodshed344]

You can't deny that psychedelics will quite often make you come up with absurd ideas or reasons behind things and they are not so easily disregarded as mindless bull (even though that is all they were.. from reading someones emotions / intentions wrong to thinking you have some kind of godly power over a crowded room) .. This can turn out to be seriously harmful.

Nope, never happened to me. Must be something ONLY LSD does. Because I've tripped over a hundred times on quite a few different drugs.

 

[rickolasnice]

I've had it on more than LSD (the second example was not something i experienced personally)..

I have personally completely misread signals (from gf) to only come to the sudden realization that my belief of what the situation was was not what the situation was.

I've had (fair enough he was psychologically unwell) someone talk to me about how the whole universe is just a "smoke box".. I tried to find out what he meant but he wasn't making sense.

My best friend (on mushrooms) completely flipped out.. he was very experienced in LSD, MDMA, Ketamine, Cannabis, among others.. but had very little to know experience with mushrooms.. He took 3.5gs (this guy was used to taking well over a mg of LSD with NO issues).. First came confusion, then paranoia, then deluded beliefs of the situation.. Then came the barely responsive to people around him panic.. The attempts to physically throw themself through solid objects.. the stripping naked.. the ambulance arriving.. the police arriving.. the assault of a police officer and finally a trip to the hospital (friend in police van, me and another friend in ambulance following behind).. My friend thought he was dying.. he thought he was being pulled down to his death (was being held down by police) and the only way to save himself was to scream at the light (a literal light bulb just above them).. Until this day he still suffers from anxiety.. for around a year it was REALLY bad (panic attacks upon leaving the house deal).. That night was one of the worst nights of my life (I was on around 1.8gs of shrooms but i don't think that had anything to do with the impact it had on me)..

(I have other stories but cba / don't know the details)

Psychedelics are not the definitely safe if done properly drug people claim them to be.. It only takes that one time..

 

[bloodshed344]

Psychedelics are not the definitely safe if done properly drug people claim them to be.. It only takes that one time..

Naw, you wrong bout that. They are safe if done properly.
Something to do with some people's mentalitys I guess. Maybe it will happen to me one day.

 

[rpm]

Naw, you wrong bout that. They are safe if done properly.
Something to do with some people's mentalitys I guess. Maybe it will happen to me one day.

Nothing is "safe". Living is inherently dangerous. Drugs more so. And we all know that LSD can make you do stupid things or harm your mental health. If you already know if plays nicely with you, you keep a watchful eye on dosing to often, and you monitor you mental state before going into a trip (make sure you are in a good place and life is generally going well) then these risks can be minimised to the point that IMO they are as small as many routine daily activities. If you don't have one or all of these things the risks increase (first time user, teenager with angst, trying it in his parents house while they are home - how often have we heard that story - never ends well)

 

[What 23]

^I did it at my rents a few times while they were home. I handled it. Spent hours in bed tense as **** a couple of times though. Otherwise, I agree. You can greatly minimize risk if you are conscious and careful.

 

[bloodshed344]

Nothing is "safe". Living is inherently dangerous. Drugs more so. And we all know that LSD can make you do stupid things or harm your mental health. If you already know if plays nicely with you, you keep a watchful eye on dosing to often, and you monitor you mental state before going into a trip (make sure you are in a good place and life is generally going well) then these risks can be minimised to the point that IMO they are as small as many routine daily activities. If you don't have one or all of these things the risks increase (first time user, teenager with angst, trying it in his parents house while they are home - how often have we heard that story - never ends well)

Yeah, whatever. You know what I mean. I'm not saying everyone should go trip. I don't need a paragraph to explain why they're safe if done properly. I just need the word 'properly'. Get it? People just need to learn how to do it properly.

and yes, I know everything is inherently dangerous, I'm scared to ride in a car. That has a much higher chance of killing you than a psychedelic, but would you say it's untrue that it's safe to drive a car properly?

Just something to ponder, don't nitpick.

 

[rpm]

^I'm not nitpicking - I'm trying to highlight what done properly, and safe mean. I'm doing this because this is a harm reduction forum. If people see you say "safe if done properly" they may think absolutely no risk if done to whatever standard they think is "proper". To them that might just mean don't mix with alcohol, or don't try and fly. I didn't mean to tear you apart though, sorry.

And I think when driving a car risk is minimised when done properly - now I am nitpicking, I still think that driving a car properly is risky

 

[bloodshed344]

^I'm not nitpicking - I'm trying to highlight what done properly, and safe mean. I'm doing this because this is a harm reduction forum. If people see you say "safe if done properly" they may think absolutely no risk if done to whatever standard they think is "proper". To them that might just mean don't mix with alcohol, or don't try and fly. I didn't mean to tear you apart though, sorry.

And I think when driving a car risk is minimised when done properly - now I am nitpicking, I still think that driving a car properly is risky

Yeah, well I agree with this. I'm just not qualified to write a guide.

 

[Crashing]

The psychological implications of taking too many psychedelics seem to be similar to any other post traumatic stress. Things that happen when tripping seem to be received by the mind with a much higher affinity than events that happen outside the trip. Some people seem to be more prone to this happening for whatever reason, i don't think science is anywhere near understanding it.