Mass Psychedelic User Delusion/Denial

[Morninggloryseed]

I However at some point, (i also started studying in the occult) some of these communications got dark and twisted and very confusing. I dont know if it was bad spirits or the drugs, but yeah, it drove me nuts for a bit...... I am doing much better now but still have internal struggles.

I have to ask how is getting into the occult, or having a dark period in your life related to LSD again? And if you don't know what it was why are you so quick to blame LSD? And re: earlier post about shamans using plants weekly vs LSD....I still do not see the distinction. "HPPD" or any 'disorder' attributed to psychedelic use is not limited to LSD. It is called 'hallucinogen persistent perceptual disorder' not LSD-induced persistent perceptual disorder. On a pharmacological level, the action of LSD is not that distinctly different from psilocin, DMT, or any of the 'shaman plants' used. In fact, considering ergot species have been coaxed to make LSD on their own through enzymatic manipulation....and Hoffman said "not yet" when asked if LSD is found in nature....there is a very reasonable chance LSD is a 'shamans tool from the earth' not that this would matter...just hammering home the idea that LSD is no different from magic plants.

 

[Solipsis]

@OP: Sorry I think you are overreacting, not about psychedelics having dangers / risks that are being discussed in the threads you mentioned but about it being downplayed. It's a shame that you feel this way though, I would have hoped that this forum is a place open to all sorts of opinions and also to the dark sides of using psychedelics. There are plenty of threads and subthreads about the negatives like addiction of dissociatives or long-term negative effects of psychedelics like HPPD. Which has a main thread but most of the time people just start a new one asking what the hell is going on with them.

The other thread about soft- and harddrugs was closed because the person who started it couldn't seem to hold up a decent conversation and categorizing a drug as soft or hard does not really solve anything, people were stumbling all over the place because of that inappropriate disctinction. Saying one is soft does not make it a 100% okay and safe, and saying one is hard does not always mean you should shit your pants every time you even talk about it.
I think people did their best to respond to that thread's premise and that effort was not met (or even worse: there is a very real possibility that it was a troll, but personally I try to respond to the content of a thread and not a person - even trolls can inadvertently start useful threads, I've certainly seen that happen).

Yes! People should inform themselves about the possibility of getting into mental troubles catalyzed by psychedelics - part of me thinks that such dangers are typically among the first things people associate psychedelics with until they learn more. I went from thinking that psychedelics were bad because you could get stuck in a trip, to thinking that was ridiculous, to somewhere in the middle believing that there is a base of reality for that idea but it needs to be put into perspective.
Every time someone goes psychotic it IS sad, I would never disagree with that... to have a thread going we need a discussion that goes forward and not people fixating on a single thing.

We have a whole forum for the dark side of drug use, appropriately named 'The Dark Side' and you are welcome to ask sharp questions in those serious ones in PD about the negative effects - but it won't be sticked since we try to avoid stickifying threads unless there is enough reason. Instead let's just talk about these dangers each in their own thread, or if you want to make it very general use the search engine to see if you can find a general thread on the subject of dangers / risks of tripping. If you cannot find one start a new one.

It would be pretty bad if we were repressing information, I really hope you don't feel that way.

@Fixingahole:

@Asante: agreed with Webbykevin: that is a good reminder to folks.

 

[webbykevin]

It is important I think to thoroughly realize the following:

1)no recreational drug is "harmless", if there was no harm there would be no merit
2)every recreational drug, if frequently used, can give rise to a destructive addiction (even slot machines can, after all!)
3)every recreational drug, if taken to excess, will have long lasting or permanent negative effects on your life

Key insight: your body/mind is a balance. If you push that balance one way a proportional counterforce will come into being to force things back to an equilibrium. You take a drug because it upsets the balance, otherwise there is no point. But the stronger (dose) and the more often (frequency) you upset the balance, the stronger, longer and more unpleasant the counterforce will be. If you push for a long time, the counterforce will push back for much much longer after you quit.

Drink too much, you get a hangover.
Drink too much too often, you get tolerance.
Drink too much, to often, too long and you will become an alcoholic, and as the saying goes "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic", you NEVER get back to the carefree enjoyment of alcohol like it was.

Dont think pot and psychedelics are special in that they are exempt from how the body/mind works. Just like any drug they have their ways of harming you shortterm or longterm. You cant relax around them because they're "harmless". Psychedelics and pot ruin lives, make sure that it won't be yours.

ACCEPT THAT THERE ARE SERIOUS RISKS
DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO GRASP THE FULL EXTENT OF THOSE RISKS
DECIDE WHETHER YOU WANT TO TAKE THESE RISKS AND ON WHAT TERMS YOU WISH TO ENGAGE THE DRUG
STICK WITH THE PLAN!

Brilliant post.

 

[electrodevo]

the thing is, these shamans were not using chemicals like LSD that were so potent...

Well, they weren't typically purified... and dosing (typically, I think) was limited to rituals, so it's not like they were bombing tons of stuff daily like you heard of people doing in the 1960s with LSD.

That being said, I would say that shaman "chemicals" -- ayahuasca (DMT), peyote (mescaline), ibogaine, salvia, mushrooms (psilocybin and muscimol, depending), morning glory (LSA) -- well, a lot of these are pretty darn potent stuff to be honest.

 

[rickolasnice]

we're all intricately interconnected and form one cosmic consciousness. Even now MagickDuck is you and I and I am you and Magickduck, and so on.

Prove it.

OP.. Yeah.. I have spoken to many psychedelic users who seem to be quite deluded when it comes to psychedelics.. My current girlfriend is a self confessed type of person we're talking about.

Like you.. I agree.. psychedelics can be powerful person tools (although i don't believe in spirituality).. But there seem to be far too many users with the idea that psychedelics CAN'T do harm. If you have a bad trip it's YOUR FAULT / there are NO SUCH THING as bad trips. There are so many users that seem to think that psychedelics can't be used for fun, they should only be used for introspective personal growth. There are far too many users that seem to think that psychedelics only ever show you the truth.. and not some obscure belief concocted from an "under the influence" state of mind..

I've also noticed a common "theme" with some hardcore "trip heads" that they have some deluded "I'm better than you, i know the truth" kinda thing going on. A lot of psychedelic users seem to think their trips have shown them the true nature of the world, or the reason for living, etc.. and that kind of belief, more often than is admitted, turns into an arrogant "ha, young one, you have to much to learn" kinda bullshit attitude.

 

[rickolasnice]

^ You are a classic example of what i was talking about

There are far too many users that seem to think that psychedelics only ever show you the truth.. and not some obscure belief concocted from an "under the influence" state of mind..

I've also noticed a common "theme" with some hardcore "trip heads" that they have some deluded "I'm better than you, i know the truth" kinda thing going on. A lot of psychedelic users seem to think their trips have shown them the true nature of the world, or the reason for living, etc.. and that kind of belief, more often than is admitted, turns into an arrogant "ha, young one, you have to much to learn" kinda bullshit attitude.

Delusion is kept away by the positive karma which now makes up a large-part of my illuminated aura.

But hey.. whatever makes you happy an all that

 

[rickolasnice]

lol.. fair play.. you got me

(Although your post is not unlike the actual beliefs of a lot of people i have spoken to)

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Errr uhh maybe you are the deluded one raining on other people's perceived enlightenment. Like the Atheist telling the man with the Great Spirit he is wrong.

^ You are a classic example of what i was talking about







But hey.. whatever makes you happy an all that

 

[rickolasnice]

^It makes me happy

So now who's raining on who's parade?

 

[rickolasnice]

Your illuminated aura makes me more than happy.. now how about i fix your hole with my illuminated aura?



/end of derail (i promise)

 

[RobotRipping]

Prove it.

you should try to prove that the computer you are typing on is real.

It's a metaphysical idea ie. outside of science and outside the realm of empirical 'proof' however it's what i intuitively believe (for now), i don't have to back that up with evidence lol. The fact this belief is so common among psych users is what makes it interesting, i came to the conclusion myself, then i heard Bill Hicks tell his version and i was amazed that someone thought the same thing.

yes there are people that act like fixingahole portrays himself in that post lol they are annoying but certainly aren't representative of all psychedelic users. Those kinds of people are more like the new age spiritualist naturopath fuckheads that i'd personally like to destroy.

what is a bad trip anyway? you didn't get high enough? anxiety attacks? can't face that your sense of reality is fluid and changing? that your brain just interprets sensory data to create your reality and you are the reference point? Those are some scary ideas to some people but if people leave their preconceived notions of psychedelia at the door when they take them, they'd have a much better time IMO.

 

[Magickduck]

thats not very rainbow of you robotripping

 

[RobotRipping]

sorry long day; i'll be seeing rainbows on the weekend and will be more than willing to spread my magical energy to everyone in this thread so they can be enlightened as well. I will be channeling the powers of the occult though.

 

[Sharapovafistpump]

Acid fucks you up. A good mate topped himself after a really heavy microdot session, all that needs to be said really.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Acid fucks you up. A good mate topped himself after a really heavy microdot session, all that needs to be said really.

Cool, glad I can get your insight because I am so confused...I have taken LSD, A LOT of times....more times than I have fingers and toes. I can't figure out not only why I didn't want to kill myself, but also why I never wound up in an insane asylum convinced I was an orange. I know your experience with your friend gives you special insight and medical knowledge into LSD and I was hoping you would enlighten me with a further explanation.

 

[RobotRipping]

i think he said all that needed to be said really.

FWIW after some high dose LSD trips i thought i was an orange and was extremely paranoid that someone was going to peel me.

sometimes i get flashbacks of this event. LSD just fries your brain, period. There's really no reason to look to science for evidence when we have so much anecdotal proof.

 

[kidklmx]

^Wow, no need to get sassy about non-trivial issues like that. I'm not even an experienced tripper by any means, and LSD is probably not the main cause, but it could certainly be possible that that person already was suicidal and in denial of that fact (it's perceived as "weak" to do so by a lot of people) and got the realization that he was in fact, suicidal. Or maybe he got in to a psychotic episode that led to the fact. Either way, I don't think it's so hard to believe that someone killed himself on or after LSD.

And sorry RobotRipping but that must be the most hilarious bad trip one can have Lol, only now I see that you were sarcastic. My point still stands though

 

[Asante]

I've heard several firsthand accounts of people who under the influence of shrooms or LSD suddenly got gripped with an overwhelming selfdestructive urge that made some of them commit serious suicide attempts on the spot.

Don't protect a drug by saying its the user's fault. Psychedelics may cause sudden, serious psychologic disturbances either seemingly out of nowhere or by magnifying pre existing issues to catastrophic proportions.

Psychedelic psychotherapy works because drugs like LSD can mobilize the entire personality structure. This can work for good and for bad. A trapped ego might go berserk and choose death over facing repressed material, or the mobilized personality structural components may "set" wrongly at the termination of the session with the result that a somewhat maladjusted person entering the session emerges from it as a mental patient, which may take days, weeks, months and in some cases forever, if the mind doesnt manage to favorably realign itself.

In my 20 years of tripping I've had it happen several times that I had a humongous bad trip that wasnt resolved, my head was all over the place in the days after and I had to schedule a second trip later that week to FINISH THE BAD TRIP so that I could emerge perfectly balanced and happy immediately afterwards.

Our group calls this an "emergency session", a trip not for growth purposes but for psychological healing after either a trip or life event gone sour.

 

[RobotRipping]

yeah i agree it's tragic some people commit suicide on psychedelics; i don't know why that happens, especially with mushrooms. Maybe it's the ego softening, maybe people feel they are ready to move on, i really have no idea. Like that kid who killed himself after smoking salvia for a week or two because he found the meaning of life.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Don't protect a drug by saying its the user's fault.

I am not sure if that is directed at me but I do want to say that suicidal idealization is not a foreign concept to me, I'd even go one further and label myself a walking corpse until just a few months ago. But I do take issue with people who make sweeping generalizations (positive or negative). There is NO property about psychedelics that cause 'well adjusted' (sure, I know whatever that means) individuals who do not entertain killing themselves to suddenly becoming prone to committing suicide. I imagine it can, does, and will happen (as the gentleman claims happened to his friend)...but if that is the case...it is a RARE situation and I'd bet USD to doughnuts that the individual in question has some psychiatric issues to begin with. Certainly I can be wrong, but the raw numbers just don't show that i am.

So it's really not so much that I am trying to 'defend' a drug vs making sure people have the facts before making sweeping generalizations conclusions. Ok and clearly I could have done it without being a sarcastic smart ass but I as subject to being human sometimes.