Mass Psychedelic User Delusion/Denial

[Magickduck]

So an hour ago, I was one of you too. But I am thinking. Let me start by saying I think psychedelics are a valuable tool in psychotherapy and spirituality. But don't you guys think we are kind of deluded? I saw a thread earlier where the guy was asking what we thought about whether LSD was a hard of a soft drug. Everyone said soft and flamed him for saying it was hard. A few people agreed, but most people flamed him. The thread was closed.

However, going thru the forums, there always seems to be a thread or two about people in permenant trips, HPPD, 'is this flashbacks?', 'am i going crazy?', 'am i dependant', 'cant tell what is real' etc... also in real life I have met many people who also have this same condition. I got mine from abuse of LSD. and its not nessicarily underlaying schizophrenia as most (including me) can hold a normal conversation and are genuinly happy individuals, but sometimes i suffer from dark trip delusion not unlike a bad LSD trip. sometimes i have a good trip, sometimes a bad.

But we can't be in denial about how overuse causes serious issues, in many people. Should be sticked.

EIDT: I named it this because i rememberd a 1960s LEO Propaganda video about LSD before it was illegal and they were like 'unlike the users of heroin who know what they are doing, LSD causes the users to have a false sense that it activates or awakens them, very dangerous'. i laughed at it at the time but...

 

[Zalo]

I believe any drug abused can result in 'hard drug' complications. Medications can cause permanent conditions, like SSRIs can cause sexual dysfunction for an indefinite amount of time. I think most people on this forum wouldn't deny the fact that abuse can cause serious issues.

 

[wayab]

the softest drugs have been the hardest for me. really labeling drugs as soft or hard is misleading. its just not as simple as that. there are much more people that used and even abused psychedelics without the consequenses that you mention. there isn't a one answer

 

[TangerinO]

Yeah who here is denying that long term abuse of psychedelic drugs doesn't cause problems? Anyone claiming that hasn't had an extended period of psychedelic binging clearly.

The trick is hitting the breaks before you get completely wrapped up in your own deluded grandeur, which is easier said than done, but hey I survived.

 

[dextroflicks]

i find acid, shrooms 2cx and all these kinds of psychedelics to be the exact other extreme of dxm / ketamine / mxe ... dissociatives. I realised that any shroom acid or 2cx trip to enhance the details of this world and basically enhance our living experience by breaking its barriers and focusing on our existence here and now (complicating it with great amount of detail), while dissociatives eliminate the whole here and now concept and give us a simple neutral perspective (eliminating all detail and simplifying things by detaching one's self from the concept of existence) ... now i have explored both of these opposite extremes and i believe that the psychological effects of one direction can be eliminated by balancing your psyche with experience in the other direction ... for instance when i was on ket for months and i was feeling too detached from this word, a simple hit of dmt solved my problem and it equalized my mindset to normal .... also in the other extreme when i was at festivals dropping acid and 2cb for weeks and was in continuous contact with our existence in an elevated detailed way which got confusing ... the cure was always a bit of dissociation that also equalized my psychological state. I have even had vision problems from extensive dissociative use... the fish eye view from dxm persisted weeks after my last dosage..... one dose of 2cb one day cleared my fish eye problem .... now i definitely prefer dissociatives any time, i never take psychedelics anymore i dislike complicating my state of existence with even more visual input just lying around... its tiresome to make sense of it.... i like the anesthetic headroom that detaches me from reality ... but either way i guess it is worth mentioning that these classes of drugs had opposite psyche aftermath and that it worked for me to eliminate the negatives with substances from the opposite side .

 

[PhyllipThylamine]

Major lol ^

I believe any drug abused can result in 'hard drug' complications. Medications can cause permanent conditions, like SSRIs can cause sexual dysfunction for an indefinite amount of time. I think most people on this forum wouldn't deny the fact that abuse can cause serious issues.

ALL drugs are hard drugs, no-one should be going into drugs thinking they'll always be on top of it. Drugs are a serious fucking game, & getting more serious every year. Even people with the firmest psyche, a great physique & diet, no ill-health, perfect life, perfect friends could fry on proper LSD/OD on heroin or coke/drop dead from hyperthermia on MDMA/chew the wrong blotter etc etc etc etc ad infinitum...

Treat drugs with the kinda respect you'd reserve for looking upon the face of a God & maybe you'll always be on top of it... yeah, maybe... 8)

 

[RobotRipping]

we're all intricately interconnected and form one cosmic consciousness. Even now MagickDuck is you and I and I am you and Magickduck, and so on.

This thread is a flashback. Scientists aren't deluding themselves in researching these compounds for therapeutic use. Maybe we are deluding ourselves that we think we can fix things by using psychedelics on our own.

for fucks sake there's no one on a permanent trip lol, if they are, it's not like a psychedelic trip. Overuse of any drug can create issues but psychedelics are self-limiting, go ahead and try to trip on LSD or whatever for a month straight. See how that pans out for you, you'll waste a lot of LSD and might think strange for a little while but overall, no harm done.

It's the very odd person that takes LSD or a psychedelic and loses their shit, and the majority of the time, they weren't too mentally sound in the first place. Or they were too afraid to let go of their precious egos. Those people can take one dose and end up that way. I've had too many trips to count now and yeah i do have some issues from it like HPPD, outside thinking and other such things but fuck, they are benefits in many ways. I went into psychedelics looking to change myself, to perceive the world differently and i accomplished that goal. I'm not going to hang up the phone tho, it's always good to have a reminder every now and then.

if you want to think like a conventional boring ass person then fine, fear LSD but for everyone else, embrace it and face the fear. It's like death, so many people fear it but i expect it to be an exhilarating experience or nothing happens and i don't remember, either way good results! so why do so many people fear death? and why do so many people fear LSD? people don't like change, especially ignorant, stubborn and closed minded people. LSD causes very little harm in comparison to alcohol, especially in regard to mental illness, so let's just murder this argument and destroy the OP for even proposing such a thing. Ah look i've become the very thing i hated at the start of this paragraph, oh how time changes us.

rates of schizophrenia do not have a correlation with increases in worldwide psychedelic use, so yeah, same goes for cannabis for you assholes that think cannabis causes schizophrenia, even in people with latent schizophrenia, the data is not conclusive in the least bit.

 

[Clocktower]

There are no hard or soft drugs.

Practically every single thread I've seen on LSD includes the advice "respect the substance," so I think we're doing OK.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

But we can't be in denial about how overuse causes serious issues, in many people. Should be sticked.

E...

Right but since when is 'humans who over use a drug' the same thing as 'inherent properties of a drug.'

Do you not see the difference? Even 'harmless' marijuana and caffeine can and will cause health and/or psychological problems when overused.

 

[Magickduck]

we're all intricately interconnected and form one cosmic consciousness. Even now MagickDuck is you and I and I am you and Magickduck, and so on.

This thread is a flashback. Scientists aren't deluding themselves in researching these compounds for therapeutic use. Maybe we are deluding ourselves that we think we can fix things by using psychedelics on our own.

for fucks sake there's no one on a permanent trip lol, if they are, it's not like a psychedelic trip. Overuse of any drug can create issues but psychedelics are self-limiting, go ahead and try to trip on LSD or whatever for a month straight. See how that pans out for you, you'll waste a lot of LSD and might think strange for a little while but overall, no harm done.

It's the very odd person that takes LSD or a psychedelic and loses their shit, and the majority of the time, they weren't too mentally sound in the first place. Or they were too afraid to let go of their precious egos. Those people can take one dose and end up that way. I've had too many trips to count now and yeah i do have some issues from it like HPPD, outside thinking and other such things but fuck, they are benefits in many ways. I went into psychedelics looking to change myself, to perceive the world differently and i accomplished that goal. I'm not going to hang up the phone tho, it's always good to have a reminder every now and then.

if you want to think like a conventional boring ass person then fine, fear LSD but for everyone else, embrace it and face the fear. It's like death, so many people fear it but i expect it to be an exhilarating experience or nothing happens and i don't remember, either way good results! so why do so many people fear death? and why do so many people fear LSD? people don't like change, especially ignorant, stubborn and closed minded people. LSD causes very little harm in comparison to alcohol, especially in regard to mental illness, so let's just murder this argument and destroy the OP for even proposing such a thing. Ah look i've become the very thing i hated at the start of this paragraph, oh how time changes us.

rates of schizophrenia do not have a correlation with increases in worldwide psychedelic use, so yeah, same goes for cannabis for you assholes that think cannabis causes schizophrenia, even in people with latent schizophrenia, the data is not conclusive in the least bit.

there are most certainly people on 'permenant trips' if we must call it that. Me included. I am not schizophrenic, and it feels indesceriable from a low dose of LSD. visuals/persian rug patterning, my mind works in metaphor/double meaning communications from the divine to communicate important ideas with me, i have a different body high/feeling of consciousness on a daily basis...

 

[Magickduck]

Right but since when is 'humans who over use a drug' the same thing as 'inherent properties of a drug.'

Do you not see the difference? Even 'harmless' marijuana and caffeine can and will cause health and/or psychological problems when overused.

What I am saying is I think we definitely downplay the harm and risk involved with psychedelics. I do admit, I did abuse it, and I will admit, it is a double edged sword, I feel I am happier than many people are, and I understand some things I never would have beforehand. Also, I was very psychologically sound before the LSD. So what I am debating is how we say someone must have an underlying illness to have these effects, I am saying I believe the MISUSE of LSD can CAUSE these effects, not trigger them.

 

[kidklmx]

How often did you trip though? I've experienced heavy HPPD like after-images and visuals for quite some time (weirdly enough gone now), but it never got as heavy as what you describe

 

[Morninggloryseed]

What I am saying is I think we definitely downplay the harm and risk involved with psychedelics. I do admit, I did abuse it, and I will admit, it is a double edged sword, I feel I am happier than many people are, and I understand some things I never would have beforehand. Also, I was very psychologically sound before the LSD. So what I am debating is how we say someone must have an underlying illness to have these effects, I am saying I believe the MISUSE of LSD can CAUSE these effects, not trigger them.

Errr maybe or perhaps "HPPD" is a design of western culture. Many a Shaman in South America, Central America, Gabon, use psychedelics monthly or weekly and do not suffer from "HPPD" as defined in the DSM-IV. If you ask me, HPPD isn't any different than a little kid staring up in the clouds and seeing puppy dogs tails and cotton candy. I've learned to have a fluid mind and can meditate myself into a 5-MeO-DMT-like state....did it yesterday at the dentist...I don't considered myself damaged at all.

in the same way that 'fear' and excitement' are the same adrenalin rush...and and only differ in the way the mind responds to the feelings, and labels the feelings...so to is the human mind when it reacts to opened perceptions....some will fear it and consider themselves damaged (self fulfilling prophecy) and others just get more amazed at the wonders of the mind, and have the knowledge that perception is fluid and what we 'know to see' is not always what is...then move on to the next challenge.

 

[Magickduck]

Errr maybe or perhaps "HPPD" is a design of western culture. Many a Shaman in South America, Central America, Gabon, use psychedelics monthly or weekly and do not suffer from "HPPD" as defined in the DSM-IV. If you ask me, HPPD isn't any different than a little kid staring up in the clouds and seeing puppy dogs tails and cotton candy. I've learned to have a fluid mind and can meditate myself into a 5-MeO-DMT-like state....did it yesterday at the dentist...I don't considered myself damaged at all.

in the same way that 'fear' and excitement' are the same adrenalin rush...and and only differ in the way the mind responds to the feelings, and labels the feelings...so to is the human mind when it reacts to opened perceptions....some will fear it and consider themselves damaged (self fulfilling prophecy) and others just get more amazed at the wonders of the mind, and have the knowledge that perception is fluid and what we 'know to see' is not always what is...then move on to the next challenge.

the thing is, these shamans were not using chemicals like LSD that were so potent... obviously you do not have HPPD if you think that. personally, mine is past LSD, and I don't have DP/DR (I used to), but it literally feels like LSD.... now i took quite a large amount for a long while...

and I am not nessicarily negative about it, as I said its a double edged sword and I love who I am and accept it, however it does make it quite hard to live sometimes, I am sure as I get older it may fade out.

it honestly feels like some serotonin damage/down regulation. I say this because, if I take a small (even sub-psychedelic) dose of mushrooms, the visuals and mental effects seem to dissapate for 2-3 days sometimes up to a week.

 

[Asante]

It is important I think to thoroughly realize the following:

1)no recreational drug is "harmless", if there was no harm there would be no merit
2)every recreational drug, if frequently used, can give rise to a destructive addiction (even slot machines can, after all!)
3)every recreational drug, if taken to excess, will have long lasting or permanent negative effects on your life

Key insight: your body/mind is a balance. If you push that balance one way a proportional counterforce will come into being to force things back to an equilibrium. You take a drug because it upsets the balance, otherwise there is no point. But the stronger (dose) and the more often (frequency) you upset the balance, the stronger, longer and more unpleasant the counterforce will be. If you push for a long time, the counterforce will push back for much much longer after you quit.

Drink too much, you get a hangover.
Drink too much too often, you get tolerance.
Drink too much, to often, too long and you will become an alcoholic, and as the saying goes "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic", you NEVER get back to the carefree enjoyment of alcohol like it was.

Dont think pot and psychedelics are special in that they are exempt from how the body/mind works. Just like any drug they have their ways of harming you shortterm or longterm. You cant relax around them because they're "harmless". Psychedelics and pot ruin lives, make sure that it won't be yours.

ACCEPT THAT THERE ARE SERIOUS RISKS
DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO GRASP THE FULL EXTENT OF THOSE RISKS
DECIDE WHETHER YOU WANT TO TAKE THESE RISKS AND ON WHAT TERMS YOU WISH TO ENGAGE THE DRUG
STICK WITH THE PLAN!

 

[Morninggloryseed]

there are most certainly people on 'permenant trips' if we must call it that. Me included. I am not schizophrenic, and it feels indesceriable from a low dose of LSD. visuals/persian rug patterning, my mind works in metaphor/double meaning communications from the divine to communicate important ideas with me, i have a different body high/feeling of consciousness on a daily basis...

Right, and I did not intend to make you think I was defining for you how you feel/don't feel, or how your outlook should be in response to your feelings. I simply am saying, do you really think you are brain damaged? Since my ibogaine experience two months ago, my mind is open and fluid, I can have communications from the divine, I feel the love of the universe inside of me, I feel ALIVE and connected to the Earth in ways I read about...but previously had no meaning to me. I know the universe is not a place of random chaos, I KNOW that things happen for a reason....shit I will go so far as to say iboga planted a seed in my brain that a nurture every day.

I am not brain damaged, I am far more functional than I ever was...I can see the light and spirit reflected in those around me, my family and friends all say I am a changed man for the better post iboga.

So I am on a permanent 'trip' too now and who would want to go back to the old way of existence? I'm still puzzled as to why you label yourself as damaged. Maybe I missed something?

it honestly feels like some serotonin damage/down regulation. I say this because, if I take a small (even sub-psychedelic) dose of mushrooms, the visuals and mental effects seem to dissapate for 2-3 days sometimes up to a week.

Or maybe you are just way over-thinking things. Take a step back and just be one with yourself. Are you functioning? Are you adjusted to life in a society?

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

can hold a normal conversation and are genuinly happy individuals

If you're functional in society and can have rewarding interpersonal relationships then you are not mentally ill*, and any inaccuracies in worldview are a technicality. Taking psychedelics can change the way you think and look at the world, that's the entire point.

*Well, you can be if your thoughts/feelings are distressing you, and there seems to be no reason for you to be distressed by this. Count your blessings and work towards acceptance.

 

[my3rdeye]

I saw enough acid causulties in the parking lot of a dead show in the 80's to think there is something just not right about alot of people who used too much LSD. I didn't do any follow up though, maybe its not permanant. Do you think Syd Barrett was already crazy? I don't know.
On the other hand I know people who have dropped huge amounts for decades and are 100 percent fine perfectly adjusted in every way. My own personal theory, unsupported by any science whatsoever: don't drop acid until you are older. I would probably get banned for saying the age i was during my first trip, but looking back that was insane, I should have waited. During my teenage years bad trips were like 1 in 3, now i never have them. Your brain at 18 and your brain at 30 are much different.
Also people take way too big a dose. Just because someone else took 800 mics doesnt mean you should. How many people fucked from acid took massive doses? While weekly dropping works, you should still take a month or more between trips at least. There is nothing wrong with doing it once or twice a year. I never hear about someone doing acid once with a low dose and going crazy. Actual clinical trials in the 60's didn't show any above average percentages of insanity either. All evidence points toward long term mental problems from LSD being very rare. Lots of people have taken LSD and ended up in psych wards, but how many are still there a month later? A year?

 

[Magickduck]

If you're functional in society and can have rewarding interpersonal relationships then you are not mentally ill*, and any inaccuracies in worldview are a technicality. Taking psychedelics can change the way you think and look at the world, that's the entire point.

*Well, you can be if your thoughts/feelings are distressing you, and there seems to be no reason for you to be distressed by this. Count your blessings and work towards acceptance.

I am functional in society, as much as I hate wage slaving and im a happy long term relationship. This is why I am saying it is not an underlaying mental illness.
there is a reason to be distressed... ill get into it in a sec..

Right, and I did not intend to make you think I was defining for you how you feel/don't feel, or how your outlook should be in response to your feelings. I simply am saying, do you really think you are brain damaged? Since my ibogaine experience two months ago, my mind is open and fluid, I can have communications from the divine, I feel the love of the universe inside of me, I feel ALIVE and connected to the Earth in ways I read about...but previously had no meaning to me. I know the universe is not a place of random chaos, I KNOW that things happen for a reason....shit I will go so far as to say iboga planted a seed in my brain that a nurture every day.

I am not brain damaged, I am far more functional than I ever was...I can see the light and spirit reflected in those around me, my family and friends all say I am a changed man for the better post iboga.

So I am on a permanent 'trip' too now and who would want to go back to the old way of existence? I'm still puzzled as to why you label yourself as damaged. Maybe I missed something?



Or maybe you are just way over-thinking things. Take a step back and just be one with yourself. Are you functioning? Are you adjusted to life in a society?

I do believe I am brain damaged yes. I do believe it will heal however, I do not think it is permenant. And I was feeling as you are, in the past. I still have communications from the divine, all that jazz. Its beauitiful and am very happy to be one of those that experiance life in this way. However at some point, (i also started studying in the occult) some of these communications got dark and twisted and very confusing. I dont know if it was bad spirits or the drugs, but yeah, it drove me nuts for a bit...... I am doing much better now but still have internal struggles.

I saw enough acid causulties in the parking lot of a dead show in the 80's to think there is something just not right about alot of people who used too much LSD. I didn't do any follow up though, maybe its not permanant. Do you think Syd Barrett was already crazy? I don't know.
On the other hand I know people who have dropped huge amounts for decades and are 100 percent fine perfectly adjusted in every way. My own personal theory, unsupported by any science whatsoever: don't drop acid until you are older. I would probably get banned for saying the age i was during my first trip, but looking back that was insane, I should have waited. During my teenage years bad trips were like 1 in 3, now i never have them. Your brain at 18 and your brain at 30 are much different.
Also people take way too big a dose. Just because someone else took 800 mics doesnt mean you should. How many people fucked from acid took massive doses? While weekly dropping works, you should still take a month or more between trips at least. There is nothing wrong with doing it once or twice a year. I never hear about someone doing acid once with a low dose and going crazy. Actual clinical trials in the 60's didn't show any above average percentages of insanity either. All evidence points toward long term mental problems from LSD being very rare. Lots of people have taken LSD and ended up in psych wards, but how many are still there a month later? A year?

I agree, I have this same theory, I have posted about it before. Most of the people I know who seem to have permenant psychedelic experiances going on started tripping very young (for me, I was 15). I had a pretty constant intake of psychedelics for years, I am 20 now. I think that (ab)using them often while the brain is developing has something to do with this.

Now I never took large doses, either. Maybe 2-3 hits of 100-150ug stuff, at the most 4 ever.

 

[RobotRipping]

lots of people end up in psych wards for other reasons too though. Even taking 2mg of LSD should not cause any damage. Are you going to see the world differently after? yeah, at least for a while, that's the goal isn't it? I'm sure PCP has donated more people to psych wards than most psychedelics, in both cases, i'm sure they come out as soon as the drug wears off and they can be released.

I agree with MGS, it's all in how you view it, as far as the brain though, there's no damage, no serotonin down regulation or whatever, these psychs bind at serotonin receptors, they don't release serotonin, for the most part anyway.

i know i am forever changed by psychedelics and believe in pantheism as a result. It's completely changed me, i see visuals like static, snow, colours changing, walls distorting, objects waving, for sure, but i don't really mind. It showed me that i do not see the object in itself, my brain merely interprets sensory data and puts it all together for me, which is an objective truth. It's not a trip for the rest of your life, what MagickDuck mentions sounds more like mania than anything else. It's the opening of perceptions and of course that will alter your view on everything but it's not necessarily permanent, it always wears off for me after a while, so i trip more to get that feeling back. It's definitely not a bad thing or brain damage IMO.

and MagickDuck, do you have any history of psychotic breaks? what you are describing is exactly how i felt before i realized that the CIA was recruiting me because i had become the messiah. I'd watch out for mania if you are having these feelings. I also dug into the occult big time when i was in that state lol. And shit you're only 20? i hate to say it but you're in that age range for developing psychotic issues, whether LSD or not, this is the time that stuff develops. I never had DP/DR until about 23. First bouts of mania at 19. I've been tripping probably 40 times/year on average over the last 9 years, at least. I do not feel brain damaged in the least.