[Debate] What is ego-death?

[Ismene]

Ok, you are right, I committed a logical fallacy there.

Fifty lines please willow - "I will not commit logical fallacy" :D

 

[Ismene]

^5mg of LSD is a start and I already insisted you take salvia. Don't make me insist again.

Do I have to? I've taken it subluingally - Sieberts "extraordinary potion of enchantment" and I fell asleep and dreamed for a while. About as much chance of me running round in my mothers panties and having an ego-death as eating one too many shredded wheat.

5mg eh? So you're of the opinion that it is the size of the dose that gives you an ego death then?

 

[max_freakout]

I'm going to use their actual evidence which exists

There is no 'evidence', you are stuck in the matrix, hypnotised by the "scholarly consensus", you have formed a belief on the basis of no real direct evidence. - You have "faith in (historical) Jesus", your belief in historical Jesus is based on your faith, it is not based on evidence.

What evidence have *you* seen that Jesus was a real person?

 

[Ismene]

Can we split the jesus stuff off into another thread called "Was jesus a real person"?

 

[max_freakout]

Max, every time you get called on your "take an insanity inducing dose" you retreat back a mile and say "It's not just about dose".

Going by Leary's model, dosage is one of the three essential factors that determine the outcome of a trip session, the others are set and setting. Each of these three factors is highly important considerations.

The most intense psychedelic experiences involve the optimal combination of these three factors. From your previous comments, it sounds like you do not optimally combine dose-set-setting, so you avoid the extreme experiences. You stay within your comfort zone, instead of exploring unchartered territory.

So hardcore experiencing isnt *just* about dosage, nevertheless dosage is a very important factor. The dose needs to be sufficiently high to cause an intense degree of altered consciousness, different people are affected to different degrees by different drugs, so dosage is a completely personal matter, some people can trip hard on small doses, whereas some people need to take much larger doses to get strong effects.

Then in addition to this dosage, the appropriate set and setting need to be considered. Terence Mckenna put a big emphasis on optimal setting for a deep experience, he said it isnt about going walking in the forest, or socialising with friends etc. The deep experiences come when there is a minimal amount of external distractions, Mckenna said "silent darkness" would be optimal, similarly the artist Alex Grey has used "blackout glasses" to minimise visual distraction, and the writer John Lily used water flotation tanks to achieve sensory isolation for tripping.

Also 'set' is a hugely important consideration, what you bring to the experience, your expectations, your mental state etc.

 

[Ismene]

I used to trip in darkness when I first started but I found a little boring to be honest. I prefer being out in nature or listening to music.

Terence Mckenna was too frightened to take mushrooms for the last 12 years of his life because he had a bad trip.

 

[swilow]

Do I have to? I've taken it subluingally - Sieberts "extraordinary potion of enchantment" and I fell asleep and dreamed for a while. About as much chance of me running round in my mothers panties and having an ego-death as eating one too many shredded wheat.

5mg eh? So you're of the opinion that it is the size of the dose that gives you an ego death then?

I don't thinks its the only factor, but a high dose probably helps...

There is no 'evidence', you are stuck in the matrix, hypnotised by the "scholarly consensus", you have formed a belief on the basis of no real direct evidence. - You have "faith in (historical) Jesus", your belief in historical Jesus is based on your faith, it is not based on evidence.

What evidence have *you* seen that Jesus was a real person?

You are the one hypothesising here, the burden of proof lies with you. This confuses me, why am I the one needing to present proof when you have begun this by claiming that a historical figure is more likely to have been either an experience or a mushroom? I have made a judgement, based on what I have read and based on the veracity of the authors, and that opinion is simple. Of course, I have seen no proof that jesus definitively existed, just as you have seen no proof that he was a mushroom or a mushroom-trip. You are also acting and reacting based on faith and confusion.

You don't seem willing to address any of the other points raised, and this discussion is getting very off topic, so we should probably leave it go

BTW, That whole matrix thing just killed me :D

 

[phuckingnutz]

intensity is largely a function of dosage, as dosage increases intensity also increases (plotted on a graph this is called the "dose-reponse curve"), so if it isnt intense enough you need to take more

Well MAX...Last night I used IM DMT 250mg...1 hour later another 250...1 hour later another 200...still no ego death Max...what on earth, in your infinite wisdom, is gonna do it for me?
That was 5-6 hours of tripping ballz...please help me Max...i need your guidance you colossal fucking prick.

 

[Ismene]

Phuck - you need to do 700mg IN THE DARK!!

That should do it :D

 

[phuckingnutz]

Phuck - you need to do 700mg IN THE DARK!!

That should do it :D

Son of a bitch! you are abso-fucking-lutely spot on Is.

Am going right now and try it...

 

[Solipsis]

I think the fact that some people have experiences they give this description / name validates the term for them, the fact that some don't does not prove that the other people's experiences or the words used to describe them get to be invalidated.

As I said before I think that meditation may be a better bet to try and induce this than ramping up dosages, especially meditation while under the influence of dissociatives or psychedelics with ego-loosening action (mushrooms are considered good for that), yes salvia is also good to 'shatter' stuff.
It may very well be that not every person has equal 'ease' to reach mystical types of states meditating... the reason for that could be that they are very defensive about their sense of self even if that is a subconscious tendency. To achieve states of otherness it can seriously help to let go of all things...

On high doses of psychedelics what can happen is that someone has the feeling that they have to fight for their sanity or their lives. While it may feel that way, I think that is mostly the fear of the self desintegrating and the idea that losing that type of self control is dangerous and that it will leave the person utterly vulnerable. I guess that people who do not get ego-death fight it in those kinds of ways. I don't know if you consciously touched that and reflected on that last psychological bastion.

Salvia is especially good because at a good dose there is no fighting it.

By the way I don't feel like pretending you guys are owed a recipe for ego loss or ego death, if that means you won't believe any of it unless you can achieve one, fine... although that would seem a little immature.

 

[max_freakout]

On high doses of psychedelics what can happen is that someone has the feeling that they have to fight for their sanity or their lives. While it may feel that way, I think that is mostly the fear of the self desintegrating and the idea that losing that type of self control is dangerous and that it will leave the person utterly vulnerable.

From Michael Hoffman's ego death theory:

"In loose cognition, you feel not only dangerously unrestrained; you feel frightfully imaginative and creative - inability to contain one's crazily imaginative and creative thoughts and mental forces ie will -- will imagination break the will and result in disaster? not only crazily unrestrained, but crazily imaginative and ideationally/cognitively creative. can create entirely new types of cognitive structures/constructions; can create radically innovative mental constructs (devices) -- here's one, the ego-death singularity vortex. here's one, "control-coercion". In the "vision-logic" concept, must emphasize incredibly creative and psychotically'/dangerously imaginative vision. Out-of-control, hyper-, overwhelmingly creative and innovative vision -- and intense logic too. "10 eyes, 10 ears, and 10 brains, all working overtime." What happens when you suddenly are subject to the hyperactivity of 10 brains, all working overtime? Can you control that awesome firepower, pyrotechnics? trying to keep from sheer chaos of hyper-creative imagination-intensity. "
- http://egodeath.com/controldestabilization.htm

 

[Solipsis]

Vaguely familiar, but wow is that ever terrible writing...

I've been at the brink of ego-death not long after having sat down on LSD meditating, it did not feel complicated, I envisioned it as an uplink towards the sky that only needed one last fragment to complete...
but I aborted at that point because the thought started freaking me out that if I would let myself go completely I would not know what I might physically do... I considered the possibility that I would walk around with the controls disabled and I could not protect myself from getting hurt.
It is a huge leap of faith or a better word would be trust. I don't have any experiences that tell me it is unsafe to do, but then again a sitter may be just that bit more ideal and if anything it can help with that trust.

 

[phuckingnutz]

I think the fact that some people have experiences they give this description / name validates the term for them, the fact that some don't does not prove that the other people's experiences or the words used to describe them get to be invalidated.

I never said it doesn't exist for some people.
What i take exception to is the elitist attitude that says: "if you've never experienced ego-death then you're not a true psychonaut".

Maybe i have experienced it and don't call it that...i may say "i tripped fucking ballz" and i may still have had the same experience someone else would call ego death.

Ego death is a term that is bandied about psychonautical circles like it is end-all and be-all of tripping...I also believe many trippers claim to have "acheived" it just to fit in...like a teenage boy denying his virginity by saying he got laid.

 

[Solipsis]

I resent that attitude and agree with you, although one thing can be said for it: experience with it that you can also talk about relatively freely does put you in a slightly different position to argue about it. I don't see how that can be untrue. Still, that doesn't make it something everybody should want.

People who think mystical experiences or extreme trips or whatever just grant you something for free, falling out of the clear blue sky, are IMO wrong and have another thing coming. Being say in an existential crisis is nothing desirable, it can ruin a person and can be very hard and painful.
Transforming experiences involving paradigm shifts can play a role in a larger process though. Mescaline has given me the feeling that I want to be a better person (I think some MDMA experiences and psychedelics can also do help with that), that had nothing to do with ego-loss by the way . Tripping did not make me a better person. It may have played a role in me wanting to be a good person though. I just hope that I am and try to be one.
It's important to see those kinds of differences, and making mistakes with that may just be a sign of immaturity in some (that virginity analogy you mentioned). I just hope that that fact that people try work with this may eventually be fruitful, and that it is the general direction they want to go in that counts. What people are looking for cannot be found in the ego-death or in the drug but in themselves. But maybe sooner or later those things will become more clear and maybe then it is good that they ever generally started on a quest.

 

[Ismene]

I never said it doesn't exist for some people.
What i take exception to is the elitist attitude that says: "if you've never experienced ego-death then you're not a true psychonaut".

Maybe i have experienced it and don't call it that...i may say "i tripped fucking ballz" and i may still have had the same experience someone else would call ego death.

Ego death is a term that is bandied about psychonautical circles like it is end-all and be-all of tripping...I also believe many trippers claim to have "acheived" it just to fit in...like a teenage boy denying his virginity by saying he got laid.

Amen. I'm all for people experiencing whatever they want to experience but this idea that if you havn't had one you're not up to snuff is pathetic. And it's infected so many youngsters - think think you've got to "die and come back again" to make your trip report interesting.

I also think all this talk of "death" and "rebirth" must be so off-putting to lots of people. I think we need to make it clear that the ego-death is for a very, very small minority of people. Everyone else can laugh their ass off, get a tremendous feeling of being alive, help ease depression and grief and feel absolutely wonderful for a few hours. No miserable dying required.

 

[Solipsis]

So... people both desperately look for it and are put off by it? Sure if you make a lot of attempts to demonize and oversimplify it, that could certainly help to put people off.
Maybe it is better if you just speak for yourself. I admit I don't know the actual numbers of people getting these sorts of experiences. But they certainly don't happen with every trip no. On the other hand people who have a great many trips under their belt may sooner or later have one of such experiences, I don't think it is reasonable to put it aside as a small possibility until we actually know how often it happens.

The feeling as though one is dying is relatively quite normal if you just read a lot of trip reports, honestly it is relatively common. That doesn't mean someone actually went through an entire ego-death or rebirth experience but still it is the start of such episodes.

It would be good for people to get misunderstandings about it out of the way, and consider it a real possibility even if it is not exactly a huge one with every single trip you take. Stop making it such a grotesque thing that is supposed to be the best or worst thing ever. Yes it is a very very intense and also extraordinary state of consciousness but getting hysterical about it is really of no use to anyone.
All those other things you mention like laughter can of course all also certainly happen during trips, they usually do, the best thing really is just to consider it a package deal and how it works out exactly varies with each time. But don't ignore that things like these do happen, there are some goofy things that can happen during trips and not all of them are exactly mentally healthy or pleasant.
But often ego-death type trips are eventually integrated and seen as therapeutic, the one thing that is not required is for you to give it all kinds of names and connotations many of which are inappropriate. And especially given your lack of actual experience with it.

 

[pmoseman]

Experiencing death without being the one who is dying and having been the one who is dying.

ego = soul?

 

[doublegood]

naa no way do you get true ego death from dxm ,,,, its just not intense enough,,, and doesnt have the same introspective qualities as shrooms or acid.... Acid is the best for ego death but where the fuck do we find true acid these days??? After that the next best is shrooms... Your first heavy shroom trips,,, and by heavy i mean not just an average trip but a really intense full on experience,,,,,, your first few times taking shrooms heavy like this should definetely lower your ego ,,,, Remember it may be a little hard to swallow seeing some of the things about yourself you never realised,, but the fact is its gonna make you a better person when you finally see yourself from a different angle,,,,so its all good man,,,,,just go with it... Once you get all that out the way then you can just enjoy tripping and travelling,,,,thats when the real fun begins

 

[phuckingnutz]

Remember it may be a little hard to swallow seeing some of the things about yourself you never realised,, but the fact is its gonna make you a better person when you finally see yourself from a different angle,,,,so its all good man,,,,,just go with it... Once you get all that out the way then you can just enjoy tripping and travelling,,,,thats when the real fun begins

Wow...I can hardly wait...