[Debate] What is ego-death?

[phuckingnutz]

Gee Max...does 600 mg IM DMT spread out over 3 hours qualify, in your mind, as a legitimate psychedelic dose, and is my ROA good enough for you?
I routinely do 150-300mg. doses of IM DMT...I only rarely smoke the shit.
Or how about 12-15 gram doses of cubes...does that count?

I HATE dick measuring, but you're pissing me off...who the fuck are you to say what is and isn't a legitimate psychedelic dose?

 

[Solipsis]

Maybe you two guys are confusing each other because there are different types of amnesia:
- with one type of amnestic experience you only forget you have taken a drug but are otherwise 'aware', I think that's retrograde.
- with anterograde amnesia there is really nothing remembered and arguably in retrospect that does not count as an experience, at least not one that can be recalled to make it count.

 

[Ismene]

Have you smoked salvia?

Nope. I prefer mushrooms, ayahuasca, al-lad and LSD.

Amnesic experience is very common on strong salvia trips

Doesn't really appeal to me - I can have an amnesiac experience by drinking 30 shots of vodka. Who gives a shit about an amnesiac experience? I can't think of anything more worthless or pointless.

from what you say it sounds like you always remain firmly in control of your mind when you trip

I wouldn't say that. I'm certainly always aware that I've taken a drug. ALbert Hoffman said that was the reason psychedelics were so valuable. Are you suggesting Albert Hoffman didn't know what he was talking about either?

If you want to experience ego death, you need to trip harder

As I've already explained max, I've taken heavier doses than you. The difference appears to be that you can't handle your high and become overwhelmed by panic. That's where you're getting your "ego-death" from.

with DMT you need to ingest it orally to get the full psychedelic effect, if you only smoke it you dont get the chance to have the long trip that plays out over multiple hours

You seem to be making it up as you go along now max. Have you ever taken oral DMT? You're a lot less likely to be overwhelmed when taking it orally when smoking. Oral comes on much slower and gentle. Smoked is when you are suddenly overwhelmed so that's your argument blown out of the water again.

 

[swilow]

Max, as entertaining as I have found the psychedelic/religion allegory, I just don't believe it. Occams razor suggests that jesus was actually a human, not a mushroom or something as ambiguous experience. Were this the case, how has such a closely examined secret not ever even been slightly revealed or intimated prior to the dawn of the western psychedelic age? I'm not going to repeat my hammer/nail cliché, but you get the idea....

I think the bigger logical fallacy here is the idea that "Because I've experienced it that means anyone can".

Perhaps, but that's merely an inversion of saying "because I haven't experienced it, no-one has". Its a lot more presumptuous to assume that your own singular experience is more credible then multiple experiences, experienced by multiple individuals. Weight of numbers, and sure, some of those numbers are mistakenly (or hopefully) describing milder experiences, but its not logical or fair to discount a huge quantum of people and their meaningful and sometimes life-changing experiences. Trust me, I haven't enjoyed any ego-death experiences and have actually found the long-lasting effects to be quite unsettling; but the truth that I feel I have had a glimpse of has made my enjoyment of my life immensely vaster and deeper. Perhaps some people simply can't experience this? I don't know, it seems that way I suppose....


Issy, you must take some salvia- I am basically prescribing it to you. The only amnesiac property it has is one that seems to prevent one from recalling that they have taken a drug; the utterly bizarre visual effects are occurring apropos of nothing. There is no point or frame of reference, no before or after, just pure (and quite terrifying) existence. Its incredibly unpleasant, but the effects of a high dose, for almost everyone I've known to take it, are consistent with all descriptions of ego-death/loss. Give it a try- its illuminating but not remotely enjoyable, but may give you some idea of what people are talking about in regards to ego-death.

 

[max_freakout]

I wouldn't say that. I'm certainly always aware that I've taken a drug. ALbert Hoffman said that was the reason psychedelics were so valuable. Are you suggesting Albert Hoffman didn't know what he was talking about either?

Amnesic experience is commonly reported on Salvia, i doubt Hoffman would disagree with that.

I've taken heavier doses than you.

What were you saying about dick-sizing?

Dosage is not the only factor that determines the outcome of a psychedelic trip session (although it is very important). Per Leary, the crucial factors in tripping are dosage, set and setting.

Have you ever taken oral DMT? You're a lot less likely to be overwhelmed when taking it orally when smoking. Oral comes on much slower and gentle. Smoked is when you are suddenly overwhelmed so that's your argument blown out of the water again.

The point about smoking vs oral ingestion of DMT is the duration of the trip experience, smoked DMT is very shortlasting, so it doesnt enable you to experience the long trip that plays out over multiple hours

 

[max_freakout]

Occams razor suggests that jesus was actually a human, not a mushroom or something as ambiguous experience.

By postulating a historical Jesus on the basis of the bible stories you are actually violating Occam's razor by postulating one more entity than is necessary (the historical man). That is the same as watching 'The Matrix' and assuming that Neo must have been a real historical person as opposed to a work of fiction, you are adding entities unnecessarily which directly contravenes occam's razor.

Were this the case, how has such a closely examined secret not ever even been slightly revealed or intimated prior to the dawn of the western psychedelic age? I'm not going to repeat my hammer/nail cliché, but you get the idea....

The psychedelic Jesus is esoteric knowledge, it has always been understood that way throughout christian history by esoteric psychedelic insiders. It is a secret that is "hidden in plain sight" - ie the centrepiece of christianity is a story about a man eating holy food then experiencing agonising death and subsequent transcendent ressurection, this is readily and obviously recognisable as entheogen allegory to a person who knows what ego death is like.

 

[Ismene]

Perhaps, but that's merely an inversion of saying "because I haven't experienced it, no-one has". Its a lot more presumptuous to assume that your own singular experience is more credible then multiple experiences, experienced by multiple individuals. .

But there are billions of people who swear blind they've experienced God. Are you saying it's presumptious of me to doubt the existence of God?

but its not logical or fair to discount a huge quantum of people and their meaningful and sometimes life-changing experiences

Of course it is. I discount billions of people who claim to have seen aliens. Is there anything unfair about that?

What you're saying is that there's this mysterious experience that might one day happen to me - even tho it's never happened in a thousand trips. I'm surely entitled to have the opinion that's utter and complete bollocks.

 

[Ismene]

The point about smoking vs oral ingestion of DMT is the duration of the trip experience, smoked DMT is very shortlasting, so it doesnt enable you to experience the long trip that plays out over multiple hours

But it's a longer trip at a LESS INTENSE level. You've been arguing for 6 pages that you have to increase the intensity of the trip to experience your notorious "ego-death".

I get the impression that you'd argue black was white max.

 

[max_freakout]

I discount billions of people who claim to have seen aliens.

If you saw an alien yourself, this ^ would rapidly change.

It is naive and presumptuous to doubt someone's experience on the basis of your own inexperience, it is like a child denying the existence of sexual orgasm.

 

[max_freakout]

But it's a longer trip at a LESS INTENSE level.

intensity is largely a function of dosage, as dosage increases intensity also increases (plotted on a graph this is called the "dose-reponse curve"), so if it isnt intense enough you need to take more

 

[swilow]

By postulating a historical Jesus on the basis of the bible stories you are actually violating Occam's razor by postulating one more entity than is necessary (the historical man). That is the same as watching 'The Matrix' and assuming that Neo must have been a real historical person as opposed to a work of fiction, you are adding entities unnecessarily which directly contravenes occam's razor.





The psychedelic Jesus is esoteric knowledge, it has always been understood that way throughout christian history by esoteric psychedelic insiders. It is a secret that is "hidden in plain sight" - ie the centrepiece of christianity is a story about a man eating holy food then experiencing agonising death and subsequent transcendent ressurection, this is readily and obviously recognisable as entheogen allegory to a person who knows what ego death is like.

^Hmm, okay. If you think that jesus was either a mushroom, or a mushroom eater, or a mushroom trip and that this knowledge has been kept secret (why?) for two thousand years from billions of people, and that this is more likely then jesus being an individual human being, there is not a lot I can say. There are a heap of assumptions there. Assuming that jesus, historicity proven by countless legitimate scholars, was not even a human is a complete logical fallacy, violation of Occam's razor, and utterly impedes the progress of the psychedelic movement. There has to be a point where we can quite harshly separate the nonsense from the reality- don't psychedelics bring up enough life-affirming weirdness without treading into the realm of fantasy and conspiracy?

FWIW, I understand how you may think that a conceptual jesus is simpler then a human jesus, but can you explain the findings of many, many, many scholars who have determined that a guy named jesus, at the very least, existed?

This is getting off topic, but why do you even want a connection between christianity/world religions and psychedelics?

 

[swilow]

But there are billions of people who swear blind they've experienced God. Are you saying it's presumptious of me to doubt the existence of God?

but its not logical or fair to discount a huge quantum of people and their meaningful and sometimes life-changing experiences

Of course it is. I discount billions of people who claim to have seen aliens. Is there anything unfair about that?

What you're saying is that there's this mysterious experience that might one day happen to me - even tho it's never happened in a thousand trips. I'm surely entitled to have the opinion that's utter and complete bollocks.

Of course, you can have every opinion you want Even wrong ones

 

[Ismene]

Yeah but just because a billion people believe in Allah doesn't mean I have to does it? :D

You need to smoke banana skin to really experience ego death anyway.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

It's a fucking SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE taking large/heroic/dangerous doses of psychedelics. GET YOUR HEADS OUT YOUR ASSES "EGO DEATH" IS A TERM NOTHING MORE AS DEFINED BY AN INDIVIDUAL AND IS NOT OBJECTIVE IN ANY WAY. YOUR DEFINING THE INDEFINABLE AND LABELING SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE LABELED. The term "ego death" has resulted in more than one hospital admission and this is a HR site for fucks sake. Lets encourage first time psychedelic DMT users to IV/IM 600 mg's DMT over 3 hours! Fucking HR at it's finest.

First the argument utilizes Freud's definition of "ego" then we get more esoteric with Max_Freakout and use ancient Greek philosophers and therefore denounce all those who posted prior to this revelation who argued for "ego death" using Freudian definition of ego?? I call BULLSHIT. Subjective not objective and while cock sizing hows this: 100 mg's MXE IM, 40 mg's 4 ACO DMT and 20 mg's 2ci taken on Saturday evening (Friday for you Yanks) all in one hit. All substances having been presumptive testing and GCMS and all tested as positive for respective presumptive testing and high 90's for GCMS. Does that count as an "ego death" sized dose? Should I encourage others to take this dose and tell them it's fine you will achieve "ego death" and not hospitalization. Apparently I looked like I creamed my pants when all these substances hit me like a brick and I dissolved into the sofa. My friends thought I'd gone too far but I was ok at the 3 hour mark back to reality. I had a cry today a real psychological break through caused by the overload of neurotransmitters and hey I realized: I'm getting on, I don't have any children cause I can't, my job is emotionally draining in itself, my partner is to old to safely carry a child to term and we both had a fucking sob.

I say "ego death" out your ass. Subjective indefinable experience not ego death, rotate on that assholes. Your going to end up with more Hospital admissions with this wank fest. Obviously you missed THE KID DID 3-4 mg's 25B NBOME AND ENDED UP IN HOSPITAL and achieved Freudian ego death ie he had no conscious knowledge of the 6 hours prior to coming to in hospital. Oh and I forgot I ate a cap with 20 mg's of 4 ho met 20 minutes prior to dosing the rest in a nice big 5 ml syringe with 2 ml N/saline and a 21 gauge cannula. How do I access it I'm a medical professional and I hate working ED/ER and dealing with seizures/respiratory depression/cardiac arrest caused by ODing on psychotropic drugs. HR bluelight? More like Harm Maximization.

 

[max_freakout]

historicity proven by countless legitimate scholars

This ^ is a logical fallacy - "appeal to scholarly authority"

The argument takes the logical form:

if p is true, then it follows that q is true.

p = scholarly consensus about Jesus' historicity
q = Jesus' historicity

if modern bible scholars believe that Jesus was a real person, then this *proves* that actually Jesus was a real person.

So you are claiming that the beliefs in the minds of some scholars is *proof*. You are claiming that if scholars believe something, then that thing must be true. This is a naive claim, as if some modern scholar's beliefs has any connection with the existence or nonexistence of a man 2000 years ago.

No scholar has ever "proved" the existence of the historical Jesus, rather it is simply *assumed* that Jesus was real, and many scholars also doubt his existence.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

^ Max your a dick. A harm maximizing dick. With that I fuck BL right off and migrate to the dark side.

 

[max_freakout]

It's a fucking SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE taking large/heroic/dangerous doses of psychedelics. GET YOUR HEADS OUT YOUR ASSES "EGO DEATH" IS A TERM NOTHING MORE AS DEFINED BY AN INDIVIDUAL AND IS NOT OBJECTIVE IN ANY WAY. YOUR DEFINING THE INDEFINABLE AND LABELING SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE LABELED.

Ego death is a subjective experience, but it isnt only had by one person, it is quite common in psychedelic tripping, many people describe 'ego death' type phenomena (thinking that one has died/reached the end of time etc) in their trip-reports. There is nothing inherently indescribable about it, people can and do describe experiences of apparently dying or coming permanently unattached from reality during a trip. These descriptions are often highly detailed and lucid accounts of what was experienced - see the vaults of trip reports at erowid for example. It is just lazy narrowminded dogma to bluntly insist that psychedelic tripping has to be "ineffable/indefinable"

Ego death has nothing to do with the Freudian conception of 'ego', it is the Cartesian/Husserlian concept of 'ego' that is relevant to ego death experience, the "sense of self", ie the subjective experience of being a person in a world full of other selves.

 

[swilow]

This ^ is a logical fallacy - "appeal to scholarly authority"

The argument takes the logical form:

if p is true, then it follows that q is true.

p = scholarly consensus about Jesus' historicity
q = Jesus' historicity

if modern bible scholars believe that Jesus was a real person, then this *proves* that actually Jesus was a real person.

So you are claiming that the beliefs in the minds of some scholars is *proof*. You are claiming that if scholars believe something, then that thing must be true. This is a naive claim, as if some modern scholar's beliefs has any connection with the existence or nonexistence of a man 2000 years ago.

No scholar has ever "proved" the existence of the historical Jesus, rather it is simply *assumed* that Jesus was real, and many scholars also doubt his existence.

Ok, you are right, I committed a logical fallacy there. Damn, and I tried so hard not to! But, I'm not using the nebulous scholarly mind as evidence, I'm going to use their actual evidence which exists and...oh, this is so pointless really. I believe that jesus was a human that existed, you believe otherwise...I just don't see the value in abrahamic religion and am keen to distance psychedelia from dogmatism and delusion, which is all I see in christianity.

You need to smoke banana skin to really experience ego death anyway.

Only the black bits though, that's where the bannanadine is concentrated.

 

[Ismene]

Max, every time you get called on your "take an insanity inducing dose" you retreat back a mile and say "It's not just about dose". Which is it? You claim I havn't tripped hard enough to have an "ego-death" and then when I say I've tripped on heavier doses than you it's "don't dicksize".

I asked you about 4 pages ago to give the psychedelic dose that makes you "ego-death" and you still havn't done so. Can you put us out of our misery and tell us what dose led to your complete amnesiac psychotic disintegration? I'm getting the terrible feeling that it will be something like 1.5g of fresh cubensis.

I say "ego death" out your ass. Subjective indefinable experience not ego death, rotate on that assholes.

Preach on brother

 

[swilow]

^5mg of LSD is a start and I already insisted you take salvia. Don't make me insist again.