[Debate] What is ego-death?

[pupnik]

From Michael Hoffman's ego death theory:

"In loose cognition, you feel not only dangerously unrestrained; you feel frightfully imaginative and creative - inability to contain one's crazily imaginative and creative thoughts and mental forces ie will -- will imagination break the will and result in disaster? not only crazily unrestrained, but crazily imaginative and ideationally/cognitively creative. can create entirely new types of cognitive structures/constructions; can create radically innovative mental constructs (devices) -- here's one, the ego-death singularity vortex. here's one, "control-coercion". In the "vision-logic" concept, must emphasize incredibly creative and psychotically'/dangerously imaginative vision. Out-of-control, hyper-, overwhelmingly creative and innovative vision -- and intense logic too. "10 eyes, 10 ears, and 10 brains, all working overtime." What happens when you suddenly are subject to the hyperactivity of 10 brains, all working overtime? Can you control that awesome firepower, pyrotechnics? trying to keep from sheer chaos of hyper-creative imagination-intensity. "
- http://egodeath.com/controldestabilization.htm

somebody is just making it up and stringing you along.
don't be so impressed by verbal gymnastics.
most of the things mentioned are metaphors with slight distinctions but all of it boils down to the associative thought process in a stream of consciousness, the guy is talking faster than he can think and it does not deserve repetition. it's really just "look at me".

.....
Ego death is a term that is bandied about psychonautical circles like it is end-all and be-all of tripping...I also believe many trippers claim to have "acheived" it just to fit in...like a teenage boy denying his virginity by saying he got laid.

someone just hit the nail on the head with this....
the in-crowd
the break-through boys
the level 5-ers

in actuality, most of these terms relate to relative intensity of one effect, the psychedelic effect.
and that effect is what happens when sensations and thoughts (which keep arising as per normal) fade more slowly.

The mind moments stack up. the overlapping sensations become richer and more resonant, and the passage of time is not dependable because you can slide around through the stack of still persisting experience, and that stack of mind moments of gestalt experience is not just time it is space too, all of what you have been doing is still doing, so if you are really stoned and you turn around you will see 360 degrees around you.

and it is attitude too, so when you are really stacked your likes mix with your dislikes and your yearnings and your fears interpenetrate, all mental formations that arise may interpenetrate with mental formations that came before even very contradictory ones, and it keeps on happening, because the state of mind is more resonant and more stacked.

and when the stack is deeper you just can't recognize anything, the layered intensity is white--out (ego death?, well associative thought does not function very well in this intensity of slow fading mental formations) each experience of it is individual none the less. we can get quite timeless, quite stoned, and we like it, and we don't need to get anyone else's approval of just how stoned we are or how dysfunctional our so called ego has become.

anyway,

is that a breakthrough or just impressively stoned. you can interpret it as many things that it is not, you can dress it in metaphors of popular psychology or shamanism or little people or lizard people, the machine elves, ad infinitum. I hear it helps to make friends when you agree with their dreams and assumptions.

 

[phuckingnutz]

Experiencing death without being the one who is dying and having been the one who is dying.

ego = soul?

Hey...everybody WAIT UP! Pman is getting left behind...c'mon Pman catch up!
That LSD thread you started is really taking it's toll on you brother...are you OK?
You're becoming more and more...hmmm?...spastic?...lately.
Sit down, catch your breath...we'll wait for you......................................................
.....................................................................................................................
...............OK that's long enough man...put on your big-girl panties and LET'S GO!

 

[pmoseman]

Hey...everybody WAIT UP! Pman is getting left behind...c'mon Pman catch up!
That LSD thread you started is really taking it's toll on you brother...are you OK?
You're becoming more and more...hmmm?...spastic?...lately.
Sit down, catch your breath...we'll wait for you......................................................
.....................................................................................................................
...............OK that's long enough man...put on your big-girl panties and LET'S GO!

Hmm... reading through all this it seems each one of us is talking about something a bit different. Not quite sure what to make of it, I am just waiting for something on which everyone can agree. This seems beyond me.

 

[swilow]

Hey...everybody WAIT UP! Pman is getting left behind...c'mon Pman catch up!
That LSD thread you started is really taking it's toll on you brother...are you OK?
You're becoming more and more...hmmm?...spastic?...lately.
Sit down, catch your breath...we'll wait for you......................................................
.....................................................................................................................
...............OK that's long enough man...put on your big-girl panties and LET'S GO!

I think we should all make a greater effort to be respectful to each other here. We certainly don't need to agree, but some of the more vitriolic/sarcastic posts are pretty uncalled for and not conducive to a healthy community. The constant allegation that people are inventing their claims of ego-death is mildly offensive to those who know that they aren't inventing anything, and there seems to be a further assumption that it is mainly kids/youngsters making these claims. Its just an attempt to be insulting and is really useless in this context.

 

[phuckingnutz]

I think we should all make a greater effort to be respectful to each other here. We certainly don't need to agree, but some of the more vitriolic/sarcastic posts are pretty uncalled for and not conducive to a healthy community. The constant allegation that people are inventing their claims of ego-death is mildly offensive to those who know that they aren't inventing anything, and there seems to be a further assumption that it is mainly kids/youngsters making these claims. Its just an attempt to be insulting and is really useless in this context.

Point taken.
I'll try and play nice.

 

[swilow]

^

 

[Ismene]

So... people both desperately look for it and are put off by it?

Didn't think I said that - I thought I'd said they feel a little inadequate writing a trip report unless it's got "i died and come back again" in it.

You've surely got to admit there's an element of the ego-death as being for the hardest of the hardcore trippers?

On the other hand people who have a great many trips under their belt may sooner or later have one of such experiences, I don't think it is reasonable to put it aside as a small possibility until we actually know how often it happens.

I'm not sure how many have an "ego-death". The definition is so vague as to include pretty much any heavy dosage effects. I'm not really a fan of the small possibility - there's a small possibility I'll see a vision of Allah and become a muslim but I wouldn't put money on it.

The feeling as though one is dying is relatively quite normal if you just read a lot of trip reports

I wonder why tho? Is it because they really think they're dying? I mean anyone who has read the basics of mushrooms or LSD knows no-one has died from it in human history. (I don't believe John Grieg took psilocybin btw!) So once you know that, how come so many people allege that they thought they were dying? I think the vast bulk of it could be the placebomine - that you've read about "dying" so often that you believe it or that you want to sound hardcore in your trip report. What's the key thing you put in your trip report to sound like a heavy duty tripper? That you died and came back again. You can't get any more hardcore than that can you.

and consider it a real possibility even if it is not exactly a huge one with every single trip you take.

I think we'll have to disagree on this solipsis. I'm NEVER going to have an ego-death. It simply isn't going to happen. I'm never going to become a scientologist, I'm never going to become a hindu and I'm never going to believe I'm "dying" on mushrooms.

And especially given your lack of actual experience with it.

So you don't think someone with vast experience with psychedelics can have any input on the idea of the ego-death unless he's experienced one? Isn't that a little like saying you can't state an opinion on scientology unless you're a scientologist?

 

[max_freakout]

I thought I'd said they feel a little inadequate writing a trip report unless it's got "i died and come back again" in it.

What makes you say this ^? Given that the vast majority of trip reports say nothing about "dying and coming back again", are you claiming that trip reports are fabricated to make the writer feel better about themselves? Also since most trip reports are anonymous, this seems quite hard to believe. When i read a trip report, i assume that it gives an honest description of what the person experienced.

You've surely got to admit there's an element of the ego-death as being for the hardest of the hardcore trippers?

Why do people "surely has to admit" this? I think the opposite is equally true, that ego death is experienced by naive and foolhardy trippers rather than seasoned initiates.

I'm not sure how many have an "ego-death". The definition is so vague as to include pretty much any heavy dosage effects.

There is nothing particularly vague about what ego death is, it centres around the thought that "im dead" or "i don't exist" during a strong trip session, what is vague about that? Ego death trip reports are easy to identify because of this, if a person thinks they have died or gone irreversibly insane during a trip, that is ego death, very simple.

I wonder why tho? Is it because they really think they're dying?

This ^ is the obvious, logical explanation. A person reports that they thought they had died, because they thought they had died. The alternative is to say that everybody who reports having had this experience is just lying.

I mean anyone who has read the basics of mushrooms or LSD knows no-one has died from it in human history.

This ^ is highly nuanced and questionable. Everybody knows that you can experience "ego death" on psychedelics, also people have died from committing suicide whilst tripping, and suicidal thoughts (thinking: "i must self-terminate right now") are closely linked with ego death dynamics (thinking: "i must be dead")

So once you know that, how come so many people allege that they thought they were dying?

You seem to suggest that people who indicate that they experienced ego death are lying. So your full argument is something like "i havent experienced x, therefore everybody who claims they experienced x must be lying" - this is a logically invalid argument.

I think we'll have to disagree on this solipsis. I'm NEVER going to have an ego-death. It simply isn't going to happen.

I agree with this, because you are deliberately avoiding putting yourself in a situation where it is likely to happen. But if you would push the boat out beyond your comfort zone with psychedelics (for example by taking a high dose trips on your own meditating in a dark room about the meaning of existence) then you would very likely experience ego death eventually.

So you don't think someone with vast experience with psychedelics can have any input on the idea of the ego-death unless he's experienced one? Isn't that a little like saying you can't state an opinion on scientology unless you're a scientologist?

you can talk about it, read about it, have opinions about it etc, but you wont ever know what it is really like until you experience it for yourself.

 

[the pink jungle]

I have done some very high doses of tryptamines in ways most are uncofortable with IV'ing. This was after insufflating a pretty hefty dose most people would take orally I believe i have experienced ego death and for sure ego-loss. Is ego death when you are on place and actually believe you are some where else and someone you dont know? or is that just ego-loss? I know I've certainly lost my grip on reality so many times i lost count but i remember them like dreams this has happened on tryptamines DXM and LSD maybe mushrooms but it was so long ago i don't remember. Is entity contact a form of ego-loss or death? I've only had that once with 15mgs of IV 4-aco-dmt. And I have iv'ed many different types since even the same one and never got there again.

 

[the pink jungle]

I agree with Willow11 i am 35 years old and have used psychedelics for 20 years I don't make claims that aren't true. Just plain real if you can't do that beat it

 

[pisspotnrock]

I don't really see human beings as that complex - they're an african ape. When they take drugs certain things happen in their brains. If we gave a chimpanzee LSD would we consider he was having an "ego-death" or simply reacting to a drug?



I've had a little DMT yeah.



Perhaps it's simply that some people can handle their high better than others? Some people take acid and then go jump off a building, does that mean they experienced acid deeper than anyone else? Or is it that they couldn't handle their high?

no its not nothing to do with handling psychedelics.. I can handle ++ LSD trips but if I smoke 100mgs of DMT freebase properly, I experiance comeplete ego death.. you should try it sometime then see what you think.... trying a 'little' DMT is childsplay compared to 100mg+ in a single dose

 

[phuckingnutz]

no its not nothing to do with handling psychedelics.. I can handle ++ LSD trips but if I smoke 100mgs of DMT freebase properly, I experiance comeplete ego death.. you should try it sometime then see what you think.... trying a 'little' DMT is childsplay compared to 100mg+ in a single dose

damn...more dick measuring...i've IV'd nearly that much...a couple of times i chased it with twice that IM'd...is that childs play too?...igot high but my ego didn't die.

 

[pupnik]

I think it's good to provide some support here...
people are having amazing experiences - and that can seem existentially monumental.

it means a lot to the person to whom it occurs, and can be interesting to others, and we do want to hear about it.
but it wont be the same ever - not quite - not to the other people to whom it is described.
if you want to call it ego loss, great, sure go ahead, it's not enough of a description though,
tell us more of what it was like if you can, and that will help you connect with it a bit.

We do have to be careful about being too materialistic about this realm of experiencing:
it occurs and then it has passed. it is fleeting stuff. everything is.
maybe it is occurring right this moment - bravo!
wonderful...

 

[swilow]

There is nothing particularly vague about what ego death is, it centres around the thought that "im dead" or "i don't exist" during a strong trip session, what is vague about that? Ego death trip reports are easy to identify because of this, if a person thinks they have died or gone irreversibly insane during a trip, that is ego death, very simple.

I wonder if the reason that Ismene and others are sceptical about ego-death is because they are defining it in the way you have above. To be honest, I've never really heard of ego-death being described in the way you just did and I really don't agree that is correct, or indicative of the more commonly held view. A panic attack whilst tripping can bring up such (predominantly) delusional thoughts; in fact, a typical thought during a panic attack is a sudden, overwhelming fear of dying or insanity- fear is a reaction of the self to unknown stimuli, ego-death is largely without fear because the fearing-self has dissolved.

I feel that many descriptions of ego-death talk about a profound recession of self; the largely constructed selfhood, which is usually based around repeated reactions to sensory input, appears to have been removed and yet all the sensory input is still occurring. During the experience, there is very little thought at all, because the normal and expected orator (the ego) has been displaced, but still the story continues. Upon exit/comedown, this is profoundly disorienting and can lead to sober-state anxiety as it (retrospectively) seems to indicate that this seemingly highly personalised experience of reality, which feels contingent upon ones self existing, is actually eternally occurring without any true need for ones self. This experience can also be incredibly illuminating and beautiful.

Fear of dying or insanity is a response of the self to frightening and unsettling input. My own ego loss experiences, of which there have been several, were only frightening leading into and then out of the experience; the experience itself (if it can even be called an 'experience') is basically ineffable with no real words to describe it. But emotion, in the eye of the storm, and normal sensory evaluation, is temporarily suspended and (it feels like) you are within pure reality with no interpreter or guide. Your criteria are invalid because they contradict the very terminology we are using here; if the ego has 'died', there is no inner I to really feel afraid. I think your above description is inaccurate for these reasons.

 

[pupnik]

i like how you are using the phrases
"a profound recession of self; the largely constructed selfhood, which is usually based around repeated reactions to sensory input"
and
"sensory input still occurring"
this is the core of the nexus - it is the very belly button of the thread

 

[pisspotnrock]

damn...more dick measuring...i've IV'd nearly that much...a couple of times i chased it with twice that IM'd...is that childs play too?...igot high but my ego didn't die.

how the fuck is my post 'dick measuring'? I was sheerly explaining my personal experiences as he claimed he had only tried a little DMT and put it down to individuals handling psychedelics differently... sure, that is true but that doesnt mean ego death is impossible to achieve even with very large amounts of psychedelic experiences...

if you IVed anything close to 100mg of DMT HCl (nearly all DMT sold on the street will be freebase and insoluble) and only got 'high', you got majorly ripped off/you dont know how to do a proper extraction (or conversion from base to salt)

now I think of it, mabey you're just trolling

 

[max_freakout]

I wonder if the reason that Ismene and others are sceptical about ego-death is because they are defining it in the way you have above.

This ^ has nothing to do with Ismene's scepticism. Ismene accepts that people report experiencing ego death the way i have defined it (ie thinking "i am dead" during a trip), but he claims that most (if not all) of these reports are lies that do not accurately describe what was actually experienced.

To be honest, I've never really heard of ego-death being described in the way you just did

then you havent done your research, with just a few minutes of searching you can find hundreds of first-hand trip reports that describe the ego death phenomenon clearly, here are a few examples of typical ego death trip reports:


From a Salvia Divinorum trip report - "I realized that I was me, or that I had been and wasn't anymore and the first crystallized human thought came to me... I DIED. " (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=60646)

From a mushroom trip report - "What gave the convincing final touches to my 'departure' into the realms of death, was my boston terrier. He was behaving very strangely. He was whining and staring right at me the entire first half of the experience. Which confirmed the eerie feeling that my dog 'knew' I was 'dying'. This in turn formed a strong bond between me and my dog. He cuddled against me (whining)while I 'died'." (From here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=6409)

From an LSD trip report - " I was being welcomed into the circle. Insanity was a network. I didn’t want to be a part of but it was too late. Then I “realized” I wasn’t insane but “dead”" (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=43800)

And there are hundreds and hundreds of other examples of exactly the same thing, thinking that you have died during a psychedelic trip. So for you to claim that you've "never really heard of ego-death being described" like this, then it just shows your total lack of knowledge in this area. Have a look at those 3 very typical trip reports that i just cited, all of which clearly contain examples of people thinking they are dead, and all of which refer to the experience as 'ego death'

There is nothing to debate here, no ambiguity in definitions, ego death is very simple and straightforward to define and understand, it is the experience of mentally dying in the altered state of consciousness.

A panic attack whilst tripping can bring up such (predominantly) delusional thoughts; in fact, a typical thought during a panic attack is a sudden, overwhelming fear of dying or insanity- fear is a reaction of the self to unknown stimuli, ego-death is largely without fear because the fearing-self has dissolved.

Panic attack and fear are crucial element of bad trip/ego death dynamics, ego doesnt want to die, so there is a tendency to recoil and try to fight or escape the situation.

 

[phuckingnutz]

And there are hundreds and hundreds of other examples of exactly the same thing, thinking that you have died during a psychedelic trip. So for you to claim that you've "never really heard of ego-death being described" like this, then it just shows your total lack of knowledge in this area. Have a look at those 3 very typical trip reports that i just cited, all of which clearly contain examples of people thinking they are dead, and all of which refer to the experience as 'ego death'

There is nothing to debate here, no ambiguity in definitions, ego death is very simple and straightforward to define and understand, it is the experience of mentally dying in the altered state of consciousness.

Max, "ego-death" is simply the loss of self...not the feeling that you have died.
Look it up on Wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

 

[phuckingnutz]

how the fuck is my post 'dick measuring'? I was sheerly explaining my personal experiences as he claimed he had only tried a little DMT and put it down to individuals handling psychedelics differently... sure, that is true but that doesnt mean ego death is impossible to achieve even with very large amounts of psychedelic experiences...

if you IVed anything close to 100mg of DMT HCl (nearly all DMT sold on the street will be freebase and insoluble) and only got 'high', you got majorly ripped off/you dont know how to do a proper extraction (or conversion from base to salt)

now I think of it, mabey you're just trolling

Well pisspoor...wrong on all counts...besides i never said i'd IV'd 100mg i said it was 80 and i'm damn good at what i do and have been doing this and similar extractions for 20+ years...also, if i was trolling i'd have picked on somebody who seemed to have some actual credibility...not you.

Besides maybe your DMT is shit or your vaping method is flawed...?

 

[max_freakout]

Max, "ego-death" is simply the loss of self...not the feeling that you have died.

This ^ is a false dichotomy; these are not two different experiences that we are referring to, rather it is two different ways of describing the same experience, whether it is described as "loss of self" or "the feeling that you have died", these two descriptions are both referring to the same thing, which is commonly called "ego death" or "mystic/shamanic death and rebirth experience"