[Debate] What is ego-death?

[PotatoMan]

Click to go to the Big & Dandy Ego-death Thread (which includes subthreads linked in its OP)

[original post:]

Hello.

I took Dxm a couple months ago and I'm curious as to what I felt. It was my 2nd time doing it and I took 600mg in capsule form and 100mg DPH for potentiation(I read it potentiates). That's it.. I also had no tolerance.
And I weigh 80kg. And I was on a sorta empty stomach. On the dosage calculator it says that's a more high level 2nd plateau trip but I didn't know these feelings can be induced at the 2nd plateau.

Anyway I don't remember a certain part of the trip, it's like I blacked out and when I woke up, i had mad double vision, I had no idea where I was, who I was, what time was and what it ever felt like to be in reality. That's all i can describe it as.

The reason why I ask this is because I know Dxm is a dissociative so it can induce dissociative feelings such like depersonalization and derealization. So I'm curious as to if it may have been Ego-death or just a short term Dissociative disorder.

 

[subotai]

Ive always felt like "ego death" is just a cover up for "I was really fucked up"

and people just want to feel like they somehow became a better person because of it

 

[Solipsis]

I think you are not interpreting the word ego appropriately there...

And the experience is briefly explained and defined here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

There is a lot more to it than being 'fucked up', and it doesn't imply that it makes you a better person. Also I would say that experiences that are immediately after told to be 'transforming' often enough don't turn out to carry enough momentum to change a person's habits. You really have to uproot your wiring for that. So that's not to say that you can't overvalue the transformational powers of altered states.

But, an experience is an experience and mystical states, ego-death, OBE's, NDE's, samadhi, ++++ all of those can still be pretty damn profound, never mind what is real or lasting about it. Please don't act too nonchalant about it. Tripping is not all about being high.

 

[PotatoMan]

I take it that wasn't for me^

The Wikipedia definition isn't helpin me identify what I felt.

 

[subotai]

Im not going to debate things that happen inside our own individual minds, I just felt like sharing my opinion which isnt that uncommon outside of psychadelic forums to be honest.

 

[Frydea]

That's not ego death, I would describe it as disassociation. Ego death causes you to see the world differently, as you have lost your sense of self. Disassociation is more what you described, being disconnected from the physical world.

 

[Qofdeath3000]

Hmmm, of course it's hard to tell, but that just sounds like your relative inexperience with the disassociated state more than ego death. I mean, having a fair bit of experience in both states, they share a lot of similarities when it's time to put it to words, because we dont have the right words to use to properly describe such alien states of mind. Each of them is decidedly unique to experience to me.

As to the subtopic that sprung up, I do feel like its very possible to effect long term change using such states as a tool, but they cannot be the only aspect of any legitimate therapeutic effort. I'd say they've benefited me in my long term since I experienced my.last ego death trip a year ago, but ive also made an effort to better myself, so perhaps its only natural that id drag myself out of a rut, but I credit my experiences to being the spark that started the motivation fire lol. Its also only a year, who knows where I'll be in five, right? Maybe I'll drop out of life again, but things are great these days for me so I can't imagine it, but the future but is unknowable, so I dont ponder it much

To outright dismiss them and use the common logical fallacy of bandwagoning simply displays a fair bit of ignorance to them. Questioning their therapeutic value is one thing, they are rarely that useful on their own. But think about it, your defense is the shared opinion of a bunch of folks that have never stepped into that territory. That's akin to asking a plumber to perform heart surgery, right? Just because you have no interest in exploring that sort of thing doesn't mean you have to hate on it, that's so damn high school lol...

 

[subotai]

not everyone who takes psychadelic drugs talks about them ad nauseam though. Mostly because they are the most individualistic of any drug imo in that the effects will vary wildly from person to person. Makes talking about them turn into a giant "well from my experience..."

whereas pretty much any other drug you know what you are getting into. I dont think anything that helps anyone is stupid, I just feel like people place too much emphasis on what psychadelics bring to them spiritually. It reminds me of the people who feel like a plastic bag blowing in the wind is art.

It's your opinion to feel it is art, and mine to feel like its simply a plastic bag. That's all

 

[Frydea]

^^^ ego death isn't really a spiritual aspect of psychs though necessarily. I agree that the spiritual aspects of psychs are quite subjective, and I don't buy the whole "seeing god on mushies" thing. Ego death is different, it is simply the breaking down of our sense of self that we've developed over the course of our lives. I'm sure some will disagree with me on this, but I think that once everyone hits a certain point, whether it's 3 tabs or 20 tabs of acid, 2 grams or 10 grams of shrooms, they will experience ego death. Everyone has a different tolerance, but once you hit a certain psychedelic level ego death is unavoidable. I can only speak for mushies and acid of course.

 

[Solipsis]

Yeah, I agree: ego-death is that something that happens at or beyond a certain point and it is rather like an experiential observation than an interpretation. No spiritual or religious implications are necessary yet at that point, I'm sure there is a neurological and psychological explanation for it. Because of that I don't think you can dismiss with having a relativating opinion about it, especially if it never happened to you before. Calling it being fucked up just seems to be a failure to define and express yourself and such an effect clearly.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Ego death IMO= people talking shit. Psychedelics enhance perception and enhance our ability to perceive the world around us. I enjoy taking psychedelic drugs and just hanging out in the garden watching little lizards and being awed by the beauty of nature. Psychedelics enhance life and life experiences. If you want to talk about the whole ego death thing cool. If you want to perceive your experience as ego death then good for you. My opinion is similar to that of Subotai in that ego death is a great term coined by old acid heads like McKenna and Leary.

Psychedelics give you whatever "experience" you desire, be it enhancing a beautiful painting, a dragon fly landing on a leaf or having a "deep spiritual experience" resulting in "ego death". If I wanted to be jerked off, I'd go to an Asian massage parlor, not jerk myself off while on psychedelics by thinking I'm experiencing some profound and mystical "ego death". My opinion on the matter and everyone is entitled to their opinion on this subject. IMO it's debatable if the concept of "ego death" even occurs.

 

[Ismene]

I don't believe in ego-death, for a start you're applying terms and theories that are nonsensical, the "ego" is just some bullshit theory of Freuds from 100 years ago that is completely discredited now. But if we do accept the ego has some vague meaning like "your sense of self" then obviously it can't "die" otherwise when you came down you wouldn't be you anymore - because your "sense of self" would have died.

I don't agree with reaching for terms and ideas from sober eastern religions and trying to apply them to tripping your tits off. This idea that "oh, buddhists know just what it's like to take 250mics of acid - but they do it naturally dude". It's an idea that took root in the early 70s with Ram Dass and has never been demolished because most of the people tripping are young and gullible and the only reading available on psychedelics is regurgitating the same old early 70s shit.

Psychedelics are their own path. They have various effects like feeling seperated from your body or not fully in control of your mind and that's what I prefer to call "the effect of taking a psychedelic drug".

 

[Solipsis]

What is so difficult to accept about the fact that on psychedelics your sense of self (that you are an individual, a person with an identity) can dissolve and fade or even effectively disappear? You don't really have to agree with the spiritual and transpersonal implications, if you think talking about spiritual or mystical states is just mental masturbation that doesn't make the basic psychological effect any less real.
That psychedelicss can or tend to cause distortions of the senses (visuals etc) is not really up for debate either is it? Whether there are people who think that the reason for that is that psychedelics show you the true reality underneath the illusion we normally see, that is something else and you can definitely reject that.

The term ego death seems to have connotations for some of you guys that doesn't seem to be so agreeable... but just like meditation or sensory deprivation eventually lead to who or what a person thinks he is and in what 'world' he lives in, psychedelics have neurological / psychological effects that cannot just be ignored.

It is indeed tricky that experience is subjective, but does that mean that psychedelics producing visuals is a matter of opinion as well? I doubt it!

I resent that psychedelics are only meant for lower level effects at which mental functions are only mildly affected, or only high level effects where those functions are severely affected. Of course everyone is entitled to their preference as to how they want to trip, but it's a little much denying that something can happen at all, when there are countless reports on people experiencing it, without trying, or even while fighting it.
Read the ego-death thread if you are not sure.

Again: don't confuse the basic effects for any interpretation. That mckenna and leary stuff is interpretation.

 

[Solipsis]

Ismene, you don't die from ego-death and it is temporary because it is related to the brain and mind's ability to maintain "coherence" at a given moment: the integration of different parts of yourself into a whole person who has the feeling that he is a human being with an identity. When those disruptive effects subside, the neurological structure of the brain is not really changed and the brain gradually re-acquires coherence again.
It is not necessarily an esoteric effect, by stimulating certain brain regions like the pre-frontal lobe transient states of consciousness like that can be produces where one feels disembodied and/or unified, it can even produce feelings of the presence of God, regardless of one's spiritual beliefs... again this is about affecting the brain and mind's ability to make you feel like an individual in or with a body, etc.

I'm just trying to point out that states like this can be scientifically validated, even if you have problematic connotations with the word ego-death (maybe we should use a different term then) it just seems wrong to me to refuse to acknowledge that these effects on body and mind sensations can occur, it is basically a form of dissociation.

Statements like "I just call it tripping" are not really helpful are they? Come on now.

And I am not making a value judgement either, I am not trying to defend the 'righteousness' of ego-death and states like that... rather that at some point a person's sense of self or reality or the boundary between self and everything else can fall apart and it does not seem like a trivial matter to me.

 

[xammy]

When I took high dose of AL-LAD (over 500µg) and smoked some potent cannabis there was no concept of "I" or "me". I was swimming in this universal soup, there was no limits, no roof, no floor, no up and down, no time, no boundaries. I had no idea about my personality or who I am, where I come from or what defines me as a person. I was flying through cosmos. This is what I call ego death, I had no ego because there was no 'I' or 'me'.

 

[phuckingnutz]

Ego death is a fantastical mystical thing that should be serched for at all costs and the trip is for naught w/o it...BULLSHIT!
I, too, put very little store in "achieving ego death"...and am not sure i ever have or would know it if I did.

I have, however, been "really fucked up" a bunch of times so maybe I did...maybe I didn't...???

 

[Solipsis]

Who said it was, phuckingnutz? Yes some people are on a quest for achieving ego-death, others are on a quest to experience next-level visuals.

Not sure why it would deserve a lot of hate tho.

 

[pmoseman]

Playing pass-out leaves one feeling this way. Pass-out creates a bit of amnesia that clears up in a short manner, but in the few seconds following re-awakening you will forget why you are on the floor and who you are with.

 

[Qofdeath3000]

Because people that have differing opinions will always find a way to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Ego death seems as close as one can get to a label for the total dissolvement if "self", other than the peanut gallery classic "really fucked up". Who cares? It's a known phenomenon, its that simple.

 

[Solipsis]

Pass-out, is that self-asphyxiation? I think passing out is not similar because you lose awareness and consciousness, with ego death the unusual thing about it is that there is a loss of 'differentiation', but not a total loss of awareness and consciousness. Which is reminiscent of the concept singularity.