[Debate] What is ego-death?

[phuckingnutz]

This ^ is a false dichotomy; these are not two different experiences that we are referring to, rather it is two different ways of describing the same experience, whether it is described as "loss of self" or "the feeling that you have died", these two descriptions are both referring to the same thing, which is commonly called "ego death" or "mystic/shamanic death and rebirth experience"

Well Max...i don't agree w/you on this point. There is dichotomy here because these are two entirely different experiences...neither of which has happened to me...not saying they don't exist though...just not in my world.

here's another one Max... http://ascensium.com/ego-death/

 

[pmoseman]

This ^ has nothing to do with Ismene's scepticism. Ismene accepts that people report experiencing ego death the way i have defined it (ie thinking "i am dead" during a trip), but he claims that most (if not all) of these reports are lies that do not accurately describe what was actually experienced.





then you havent done your research, with just a few minutes of searching you can find hundreds of first-hand trip reports that describe the ego death phenomenon clearly, here are a few examples of typical ego death trip reports:


From a Salvia Divinorum trip report - "I realized that I was me, or that I had been and wasn't anymore and the first crystallized human thought came to me... I DIED. " (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=60646)

From a mushroom trip report - "What gave the convincing final touches to my 'departure' into the realms of death, was my boston terrier. He was behaving very strangely. He was whining and staring right at me the entire first half of the experience. Which confirmed the eerie feeling that my dog 'knew' I was 'dying'. This in turn formed a strong bond between me and my dog. He cuddled against me (whining)while I 'died'." (From here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=6409)

From an LSD trip report - " I was being welcomed into the circle. Insanity was a network. I didn’t want to be a part of but it was too late. Then I “realized” I wasn’t insane but “dead”" (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=43800)

And there are hundreds and hundreds of other examples of exactly the same thing, thinking that you have died during a psychedelic trip. So for you to claim that you've "never really heard of ego-death being described" like this, then it just shows your total lack of knowledge in this area. Have a look at those 3 very typical trip reports that i just cited, all of which clearly contain examples of people thinking they are dead, and all of which refer to the experience as 'ego death'

There is nothing to debate here, no ambiguity in definitions, ego death is very simple and straightforward to define and understand, it is the experience of mentally dying in the altered state of consciousness.





Panic attack and fear are crucial element of bad trip/ego death dynamics, ego doesnt want to die, so there is a tendency to recoil and try to fight or escape the situation.

That third link makes no mention of ego death. The person there thought they were dead as a series of what they knew were insane thoughts.

 

[hangyourhead]

Ego-death is not new to myself, at least I think so. It's where worrying about what somebody thinks of you, how they respond to your actions, what your dressed in and what you don't mind destroying (like I destroyed some designed T-shirts IVing MXE on >300ug liquid LSD + 5-10g's of powdered etizolam; which we dipped our fingers in, definitely not HR haha. You don't care if your scared enough to cry in front full-grown adults with true emotions because your not hiding behind the mask society created for you to hide behind.

Where the fuck has Mr. Meowfish been? He was over a few times at my house last summer and fall 2x (we did lots of IV and other ROA's MXE, rolled MXE "disco sticks" methoxetamine-laced spliffs instead of angel dust/PCP, trust much much more psychedelic/less manic) He's phone keeps getting shut off, either he did something that's gonna truly bum me, well being locked up because of his probation and getting kicked off his BMT/Subs and like 90 x 10mg diazepam generic blue Mylan tabs (benzo WDs, seizures, long duration bupe WDs, insomnia, suicidal depression), I love the blue val tens... Those WDs would be just as bad almost. I hope our fellow BLer is okay... He was known well on the MXE thread! Mr. Meowfish I hope he wasn't feeling suicidial, I am right now, but I try my best not to act on it *I know this is TDS discussion sry no more*

 

[Ismene]

You seem to suggest that people who indicate that they experienced ego death are lying.

No, I've answered this about 5 times now maxy baby, it's like someone who believes Allah spoke to him. He might not be lying - he might be the kind of person who hears Allah speaking to him. That doesn't mean I ever will.

you can talk about it, read about it, have opinions about it etc, but you wont ever know what it is really like until you experience it for yourself.

Nah, just because I havn't experienced Allah doesn't mean I can't state my belief that Allah doesn't exist and that only a certain type of person will experience Allah.

This ^ has nothing to do with Ismene's scepticism. Ismene accepts that people report experiencing ego death the way i have defined it (ie thinking "i am dead" during a trip), but he claims that most (if not all) of these reports are lies that do not accurately describe what was actually experienced.

No, that's not what I said at all max. I said the definition of ego-death is so vague as to include virtually any of the effects of heavy tripping.

I didn't say "most" of them are lying either. I've no doubt certain people can experience effects they interpret as an "ego-death". That doesn't mean I will - I won't ever experience Allah but I've no doubt lots of people do.

 

[pmoseman]

You contend it might exist, therefore, you might experience it. What assurance can you give that you will not ever experience it?

It sounds like you are simply refusing to qualify any experience as ego death.

 

[Ismene]

You contend it might exist, therefore, you might experience it.

No, that's, dare I say, a logical fallacy. It might exist in someone elses head - but so might Allah, scientology and aliens. Lots of strange things can exist in someones head that arn't accessible to me.

I'm more than happy to accept that some people believe they've had what they interpet to be an "ego-death". That's not in question. Just like lots of people think they've experienced Allah. The question is whether everyone else can experience the same thing.

What assurance can you give that you will not ever experience it?

Just the assurance of someone vastly experienced with psychedelics. Perhaps I'll see Allah tomorrow too. But I doubt it.

 

[Beavesmx44]

I think......therefore.......i am.

 

[phuckingnutz]

I think......therefore.......i am.

OH PHUCK!..I DON'T...therefore I'm NOT?

 

[pmoseman]

OH PHUCK!..I DON'T...therefore I'm NOT?

How could you think such a thang?

 

[swilow]

then you havent done your research, with just a few minutes of searching you can find hundreds of first-hand trip reports that describe the ego death phenomenon clearly, here are a few examples of typical ego death trip reports:

And there are hundreds and hundreds of other examples of exactly the same thing, thinking that you have died during a psychedelic trip. So for you to claim that you've "never really heard of ego-death being described" like this, then it just shows your total lack of knowledge in this area. Have a look at those 3 very typical trip reports that i just cited, all of which clearly contain examples of people thinking they are dead, and all of which refer to the experience as 'ego death'

I actually do have a working knowledge of this topic having experienced this phenomena several times, so I can assure you that ego-death is not defined as one merely fearing that they are dead or going insane. It is beyond fear, as it is the absence of the 'fearer'.

There is nothing to debate here, no ambiguity in definitions, ego death is very simple and straightforward to define and understand, it is the experience of mentally dying in the altered state of consciousness.

But you are defining ego-death in a way that is completely incorrect. So you are right, there is no ambiguity.

Its a pointless debate because it seems you are unwilling to be civil at this stage.

Panic attack and fear are crucial element of bad trip/ego death dynamics, ego doesnt want to die, so there is a tendency to recoil and try to fight or escape the situation.

Last point, conflating a bad trip with ego-death or using the terms synonymously as you have, is just not correct. Ego-death is not always a bad trip.

 

[SoonAJunkie]

From what i understand,ego-death is actually permanent tripping.2 months after my dmt trip and i'm still tripping.Tripping without visuals or weird thoughts though,just the layer behind this stuff....

 

[Solipsis]

Pretty sure that would be called something else, but 'the layer behind this stuff' is a bit of a vague description. Can you expand on that? It sounds more like seeing things in a different light or a paradigm shift. It doesn't have very much to do with ego death or ego loss I think. At least not according to more commonly used descriptions / definitions of that.

 

[the pink jungle]

Max, "ego-death" is simply the loss of self...not the feeling that you have died.
Look it up on Wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

Then I suppose i have experienced this countless times. or should i say almost everytime i trip. I always take huge amounts of these 4-subbed trypts cause i am not scared of them aside from slight anxiety as if i did too much but they are relatively safe in my opinion have done 100mgs each of 4-ho-mipt and 4-aco-met and with no ill effects. no body load actually quite comfortable but may i was just so far gone i didn't notice. definately on of my stranger trips. seems like a dream. so i don't have a lot of detail plus i tend to drink a loy while tripping which i think detracts from the experience. a little at first is ok for anxiety if you have no benzos but too much causes me amnesia. I still am awed by the entit contact i had with IV'ing 4-aco-dmt. Every time i trip i definatly have ego-loss but ego deat less rarely. and if things get too intense i have trazodone which can kill or at least tame a trip but only used in low doses like 25-50 mgs otherwis you risk serotonin syndrome. Its a 5HT2A antagonist the opposite of most psychedelics. do your research though don't take my word for it I'm not a medical professional.

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this is a fun topic cause everyone has a different opinion I don't think there is a right answer here. Its what you perceive that matters the most . if it was a positive experience then that is what counts cause why would you do it again if it sucked.

Pretty sure that would be called something else, but 'the layer behind this stuff' is a bit of a vague description. Can you expand on that? It sounds more like seeing things in a different light or a paradigm shift. It doesn't have very much to do with ego death or ego loss I think. At least not according to more commonly used descriptions / definitions of that.

That might be HPPD Hallucinogen persisting perceptual disorder you are experiencing I too feel that way I still see trails and patterns that should not be there is that what you have plus my thought seem different. i think of every thing in psychedelic terms and see them that way too even if i don't use them for a very long time.

From what i understand,ego-death is actually permanent tripping.2 months after my dmt trip and i'm still tripping.Tripping without visuals or weird thoughts though,just the layer behind this stuff....

i meant to quote you in my last post please read. i might be able to help

 

[pmoseman]

When ego death is used, perhaps, does the ego means fear and distraction?

 

[swilow]

^Can you expand on that somewhat?

 

[pmoseman]

Reading this helped me realize the key to this discussion may be how we define the ego.

Psychedelics (LSD) remove fear from a person, I believe, and they clear the mind of distraction (somewhat paradoxically as they also give a bit of a show).

The ego we lose is not the whole self but the version of the self that is false.

When I watch television shows, after being away from the television for a good while, one after the other, I am feeling anxiety from giving empathy to the characters in the show. The person is in a stressful situation.

I feel this is the ego in our modern American society: anxious, nervous, angry. When we talk about ego death, it is the confusion of the experience that we must give up on this ego that we are performing. The role of ourselves that has been built up in our heads by the things that distract/entertain us.

 

[swilow]

I sort of think of ego as almost interchangeable with self, which is probably incorrect. Its more like the shell that houses the inner kernel of self...

 

[lovepsychadelics]

I think our ego is self made, meaning that it takes years for it to develop and develops thought life experiences and what we've been taught. It's what defines our reality so in a sense when it dies, so does part of our reality. Seeing a dissolved reality is quite an outstanding experience. But it means something different to each n every one of us. This is why we can't label it like we're trying to do here.

I have no idea where this debate has reached but it's gotten so complex. Not that that's bad or anything, it's healthy for us to have our own truths about these higher thoughts.

Freudian ego, or the philosophical ancient Greek definition postulated by MAX "I think therefore I am". I think BULLSHIT ARTIST. I guess the question is when you take psychedelics how do you explore your mind? Introspection, psychedelic overdose with loss of bodily control and possibly bowels and bladder, responsible doses for your health age etc. DO you combine dissociative drugs with psychedelics? Do you jack up 600 mg's of DMT in say 3 x 200 mg doses every hour over 3 hours like MAX_FREAKOUT??? Do you want to promote HR? I think ego death is a dangerous ideology if it is promoted as such "ego death occurs when stupid, sorry I mean "heroic", doses of drugs are taken. Is it possible to experience this at a lower dose or with other adjunct substances being co administered?? What did you experience OP CAUSE THIS IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT; A SUBJECTIVE MOMENTARY EXPERIENCE. "Ego death" is a label nothing more. Could be nike death or lego death or penthouse death. Why not a label is only as relevant as the individual applying the label deems it to mean. "Ego Death" is not a HR strategy if anything it encourages stupid reckless dosing of drugs that often results in hospitalization.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Reading this helped me realize the key to this discussion may be how we define the ego.

Psychedelics (LSD) remove fear from a person, I believe, and they clear the mind of distraction (somewhat paradoxically as they also give a bit of a show).

The ego we lose is not the whole self but the version of the self that is false.

When I watch television shows, after being away from the television for a good while, one after the other, I am feeling anxiety from giving empathy to the characters in the show. The person is in a stressful situation.

I feel this is the ego in our modern American society: anxious, nervous, angry. When we talk about ego death, it is the confusion of the experience that we must give up on this ego that we are performing. The role of ourselves that has been built up in our heads by the things that distract/entertain us.

Bang on mate that is your subjective experience and therefore definition and it's HR compliant. I don't see a single dicksizing dose of xxx mg's of drug x got me to ++++++ and therefore egodick. Funny as fuck someone on another forum posted on this very subject. Smoking DMT was bought up and how harsh and plastic it tastes. This coined the phrase I dunno about ego death but their is legodeath. MMM smoked DMT and the plastic lung full of harsh as fuck smoke.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

This ^ proves my point about it being "red hot" and controversial/taboo, when you consider what happened to Allegro because of what he wrote in that book. Allegro was publically ridiculed, lost his job and destroyed his career and academic reputation for daring to suggest an alternative to the historicist interpretation of Christian origins. It is highly controversial and taboo to suggest that Jesus wasnt a person, as Allegro discovered. (see this interview with Allegro - www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN-bURgoxPY)

Allegro claimed that Jesus was a mushroom, which is still quite a long way from recognising the altered-state allusions in the Jesus stories. Ie Jesus was a mushroom trip, rather than an actual mushroom.

Also Allegro got the wrong mushroom, he thought it was amanita mushrooms, whereas we all know that the real trippy mushroom is the psilocybe not the amanita.

Wrong Amanita is a hallucinogen. I've done them just not the kind you'd take and call the experience "enjoyable". Same as datura. Red hot as a burnt out ember. Discredited scientists are REALLY fucking common. Many people still spout their flawed findings. The lancet published an article on the dangers of MMR vaccine which it later withdrew as the Dr in question was more than a little influenced by the lawyers of a lobby group saying vaccines cause autism. In some very rare cases (one recently) our immune system overreacts (allergic??) and now a man is a paraplegic. You argue based on discredited scientists who utilized no real scientific methodology before publishing a craptastic piece of misinformation. This means McKenna is not a crack pot and you really can talk to aliens and archytypes if you eat 1/2 a bucket of dmt with a Maoi or 20 and wash it down with datura tea...

Then you utilize Freudian definition on the next page after righting it off saying it's all greek philosophy. Mate run for office as the president your a sure win. You talk enough shit, contradict yourself and yet somehow maintain a soapbox as the "ego death" lord of all time despite these contradictions and reference sources that are fucking laughable. Run for your state as an independent and then for the white house. I think with your ability to talk shit, put your foot in your mouth but deny the foots existence is just amazing!