Lysergamides [LSD Subthread] Spiritual Experiences / Plus Four / ++++

[tBirdee]

^exactly, if your disagreeing with his beliefs, your wrong. Especially since you used a DRUG :O

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

If your pastor hasn't had such experiences himself, how can he know for sure? It's possible psychedelics are absolutely not for him (since they're not for most people), and/or he's just parroting what he's been taught about them.

I've known ordained clergypeople who have had experiences with psychedelics, who found them very helpful for their spiritual leadership role. Typically we're talking people who experimented when they were young, unexpectedly found their experiences spiritually profound, and were later influenced by these experiences to go into the religious life. Ongoing regular use of psychedelics while operating as a religious leader is not a pattern of behavior I've encountered, or expect to, outside of the fringes.

Your pastor may be threatened that you're talking about cutting out the middleman: him! If you can establish a direct link with the Almighty through mystical use of psychedelics, then the importance of attending church and relying on other people for spiritual guidance might just diminish. If you intend on staying, consider reassuring your pastor that you still find the communal aspect of his church very nourishing, because this is something no drug can give you.

 

[Ismene]

You're wasting your time talking to a pastor about psychedelics. If you must talk to someone involved in organised religion then you have to accept their terms and conditions - ie that the "God" they believe in is the true one and that they know best about all spiritual matters.

The other option is to give him a copy of "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and enjoy your own beautiful, spiritual times with psychedelics in private. At the end of the day only you know what it's like to live in your own skin. If psychedelics help you do that then why not enjoy them?

 

[killo]

If you ask me, lack of psychedelics in western society's life is why our churches and Christianity are like this is the first place.

Close minded.

 

[lineartransform]

"There is a myth about such highs, that the user has an illusion of great insight, but it does not survive scrutiny in the morning. I am convinced that this is an error, and that the devastating insights achieved when high are real insights; the main problem is putting those insights in a form acceptable to the quite different self that we are when we're down the next day. Some of the hardest work I've ever done has been to put such insights down on tape or in writing.

I am convinced that there are genuine and valid levels of perception available with cannabis (and probably with other drugs) which are, through the defects of our society and our educational system, un-available to us without such drugs."

- Carl Sagan

 

[cosmic charlie]

when I took LSD my religious beliefs died

and I became my own God

 

[ungelesene_bettlek]

Now I'm confused into what I should take of these experiences. Should I still be taking such high doses, lower doses are sometimes just as fulfulling, just not in the spiritual sense. Enlighen me bluelighters.

I think you should just stop to believe in the bullshit your pastor tells you.

 

[amanitadine]

hooray on the richard dawkins! :D but being the man of infinite sympathy (yeah, sure) ima have to say +1 to what mydoorsareopen said, to a tee. nonody can truly experience the potential, beauty, usefellness, and lack of threat psychedelics possess unless they have actually TAKEN them. And ima gonna bet that your pastor, due to the confines in which he has operated and been trained, (and his response ;D) probably hasn't. Is he somebody with which you can have an intelligent discourse with? The whole "demon" thing makes me think not And yeah, the church has long operated by making itself seem "necessary" as the conduit between you and god. And, i think as you have already experienced, this just isnt the case. But, these arent mutually exclusive approaches to life. If the christian faith is important to you you can find people that wont dismiss YOUR important experiences as demons. Just think of it as that you have outschooled yr pastor. And why the question about high doses? Not to chafe, but is it less sinful to take low doses? high dose LSD rules. And is NOT sinfull :D

 

[psilocybonaut]

around 500mcg, resulting in +++++ trips.

Just to let you know, there is no such thing as a +++++ (+5) trip. A ++++ is the highest you can go on the Shulgin scale, and that is an experience that is extremely rare and usually only comes to those who really strive to achieve spiritual enlightenment.

Try not to confuse a beautiful, transcendent ++++ experience with a simple profound spiritual experience, which commonly happens on LSD.

As for 500 mcg of LSD....LSD very very rarely produces a ++++ experience...usually ++++s only happen on LSD when you get into the multiple milligram range (5,000 mcg+), and still it is rare. 5-MeO-DMT is the most likely substance to produce a ++++. If you truly had a ++++, you would be outside of your body, unable to move AT ALL, void of an ego, and you would KNOW because you would be reborn. LSD produces +3 or +3.5 experiences quite easily at higher doses.

And I highly doubt that a ++++ would lead you to go to a pastor. This is just my 2 cents.

This is Shulgin's rating scale:
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/shulgin_rating_scale.shtml

PLUS FOUR (++++)
A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a 'peak experience', a 'religious experience,' 'divine transformation,' a 'state of Samadhi' and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity. It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes, which has come about after the ingestion of a psychedelic drug, but which is not necessarily repeatable with a subsequent ingestion of that same drug. If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end of, the human experiment.

Now, I'm not trying to invalidate your experience at all, I am just saying that if it was a ++++, you probably wouldn't have had it twice from a (medium) dose of LSD. I regularly take 1500mcg+ and do not have anything NEAR a ++++.

I would say that you definitely had a +++ experience, which is extremely spiritually profound nonetheless.

 

[Roger&Me]

This thread isn't for the athiest or anti-christ. Please. I just don't want anti-religious posting. Waste of my time.

So you go on to describe a situation with your pastor that truly embodies the stupidity of organized religion, yet you preface it by saying that you don't want anyone to point that fact out to you?

Personally I don't understand how you could respect a person who tells you that your psychedelic experiences are the "demonic realm" trying to contact you (...that is downright delusional, man). Do you have any idea how disturbing that is, that some dude claiming to be some type of spiritual authority figure would actually say that to you?

 

[cosmic charlie]

Personally I don't understand how you could respect a person who tells you that your psychedelic experiences are the "demonic realm" trying to contact you (...that is downright delusional, man). Do you have any idea how disturbing that is, that some dude claiming to be some type of spiritual authority figure would actually say that to you?

for real

 

[azzazza !?]

the demonic in christian discourse is essentially a metaphor for a loss of self to something external in exchange for an illusion of autonomy/power (to sell ones soul to the devil). this external thing then begins occupying a central position within the self as a necessairy 'relay' between the self and the means for which end it is used (the promise). the problem is that the contact established would always have to be mediated through this external third. by this very fact itself, the original goal for which the external third element is used can no longer be truly reached/internalized; because the mediator already occupies the central position, instead of the sought after itself. the promise can no longer be fulfilled ([full] [fill] [you]) because the mediator remains at all times present as obstruction to this fullness.

for case in point, LSD as mediating religious experience; one has the following defences: the psychedelic acts as a catalyst. while it does function as a technic mean to an end; it does make room for the desired end [if used correctly!]. ie. while the original experience is mediated by a technè, this experience can serve as motivation, or a guide(line) for which one strives in sober life. one recognizes the need to make it 'real' for oneself outside the realm of the mediation. thus the catalyst dissolves/retreats from the reaction instead of perpetually claiming its position as necessairy 'communication relay' hampering true unity of the dialoguees. note that the church can just as easy express itself demonic or catalytic.

at the root of the demonic lies this ambivalence. you could refer your pastor to the ancient greek root 'daimon'. originally this was a benevolent spirit inbetween men and gods.
in conclusion: the means or technè in itself does not have a moral quality. the demonic comes in existence through an abuse of the technè that does not respect the fundamental otherness/being-in-itself of its end anymore. instead it usurps both its user and the good he desires through its use. the boon should be recieved in grace because it is Will, and will is by definition free. but this responsability towards the Other lies with the intentional moral agent himself.

many times the problem of the church lies in the complete rejection of the technè (the naturalistic fallacy); as to say we should completely surrender ourselves to the grace of God; thwarting our own desire for him. this is illusionary as well. the technè as means is the expression of our free will towards God. if we were to purely surrender ourselves to his grace, we would not express a conscious, intentional will for him, which is what the technè is. consequently, we would worship him as robots without a desire for him. they don't see the technè as an expression of a desire for the Other, yet it leaves room for the Others' grace, for him to reveal himself to that desire of the self. the balance is the key. as is the acceptance that technè is an invitation instead of control.

 

[Solipsis]

I think it is an ignorant thing to say for that pastor, I'm very sorry.
However in Buddhism, Makyo is very much alike tripping and reaching higher states by meditation. I once participated in a week long zazen meditation and this makyo happened to me as well, I could see how much it is alike tripping, almost exactly, and how this is not something demonic in a negative sense but it is metaphorically a devilish distraction that keeps you from having clear mental sight. Even though it is not good as a distraction it is certainly good because it means you're on the right way beyond it! So it is as well good at it is bad.

If you don't take an extreme lot of acid or psychedelic alike you can get patterns and what have you not. But with higher doses you can get strong dissociation and spiritual experiences like the OP had, and I too. I'm not religious though as Zen Buddhism isn't either. When you have strong experiences and see beyond the visuals and typical psychedelic effects you can reach ++++ enlightened states, and from that perspective the visuals were a distraction.

It doesn't mean every trip has to be like that, living in this supposed illusion or whatever is my daily habit as well and normally visuals and typical trip effects are what I'm after. Only thing I'm saying is this is how I see it, but everyone has to find out for himself is what I say. Don't believe that pastor or me or anyone else. Please.

 

[XTeeSee]

I think it is an ignorant thing to say for that pastor, I'm very sorry.
However in Buddhism, Makyo is very much alike tripping and reaching higher states by meditation. I once participated in a week long zazen meditation and this makyo happened to me as well, I could see how much it is alike tripping, almost exactly, and how this is not something demonic in a negative sense but it is metaphorically a devilish distraction that keeps you from having clear mental sight. Even though it is not good as a distraction it is certainly good because it means you're on the right way beyond it! So it is as well good at it is bad.

If you don't take an extreme lot of acid or psychedelic alike you can get patterns and what have you not. But with higher doses you can get strong dissociation and spiritual experiences like the OP had, and I too. I'm not religious though as Zen Buddhism isn't either. When you have strong experiences and see beyond the visuals and typical psychedelic effects you can reach ++++ enlightened states, and from that perspective the visuals were a distraction.

It doesn't mean every trip has to be like that, living in this supposed illusion or whatever is my daily habit as well and normally visuals and typical trip effects are what I'm after. Only thing I'm saying is this is how I see it, but everyone has to find out for himself is what I say. Don't believe that pastor or me or anyone else. Please.

I'm very familiar with these enlightened states, recently some followers of buddah came to my fathers retreat centre, and are now underneath in the "nuclear bomb chambers" in complete sensory deprivation. They'll be there for another week.
Do you believe this can cause a more spiritual awakening considering it's natural vs. chemical?
I don't necessarily meditate whilst dosing, but do find myself in a quiet state of mind maybe subconsciously trying to reach these states of increased awareness, or such.
Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I'm on lsd...right now.

many times the problem of the church lies in the complete rejection of the technè (the naturalistic fallacy); as to say we should completely surrender ourselves to the grace of God; thwarting our own desire for him. this is illusionary as well. the technè as means is the expression of our free will towards God. if we were to purely surrender ourselves to his grace, we would not express a conscious, intentional will for him, which is what the technè is. consequently, we would worship him as robots without a desire for him. they don't see the technè as an expression of a desire for the Other, yet it leaves room for the Others' grace, for him to reveal himself to that desire of the self. the balance is the key. as is the acceptance that technè is an invitation instead of control.

Wait... are you a christian believer or not?

 

[Solipsis]

Actually you quoted azzazza! and put my name there.

To answer the previous question: yes I definitely think that doing it the natural way is structurally more stable as well as sustainable. LSD gives you a window in which you can do a lot of things, but you still have to start your own personal revolutions. Meditation is much better that way, although psychedelics certainly have their place.

 

[medical_meccanica]

"There is a myth about such highs, that the user has an illusion of great insight, but it does not survive scrutiny in the morning. I am convinced that this is an error, and that the devastating insights achieved when high are real insights; the main problem is putting those insights in a form acceptable to the quite different self that we are when we're down the next day. Some of the hardest work I've ever done has been to put such insights down on tape or in writing.

I am convinced that there are genuine and valid levels of perception available with cannabis (and probably with other drugs) which are, through the defects of our society and our educational system, un-available to us without such drugs."

- Carl Sagan

FANTASTIC!!

He's my hero, now even more so.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

the demonic in christian discourse is essentially a metaphor for a loss of self to something external in exchange for an illusion of autonomy/power (to sell ones soul to the devil). this external thing then begins occupying a central position within the self as a necessairy 'relay' between the self and the means for which end it is used (the promise). the problem is that the contact established would always have to be mediated through this external third. by this very fact itself, the original goal for which the external third element is used can no longer be truly reached/internalized; because the mediator already occupies the central position, instead of the sought after itself. the promise can no longer be fulfilled ([full] [fill] [you]) because the mediator remains at all times present as obstruction to this fullness.

for case in point, LSD as mediating religious experience; one has the following defences: the psychedelic acts as a catalyst. while it does function as a technic mean to an end; it does make room for the desired end [if used correctly!]. ie. while the original experience is mediated by a technè, this experience can serve as motivation, or a guide(line) for which one strives in sober life. one recognizes the need to make it 'real' for oneself outside the realm of the mediation. thus the catalyst dissolves/retreats from the reaction instead of perpetually claiming its position as necessairy 'communication relay' hampering true unity of the dialoguees. note that the church can just as easy express itself demonic or catalytic.

at the root of the demonic lies this ambivalence. you could refer your pastor to the ancient greek root 'daimon'. originally this was a benevolent spirit inbetween men and gods.
in conclusion: the means or technè in itself does not have a moral quality. the demonic comes in existence through an abuse of the technè that does not respect the fundamental otherness/being-in-itself of its end anymore. instead it usurps both its user and the good he desires through its use. the boon should be recieved in grace because it is Will, and will is by definition free. but this responsability towards the Other lies with the intentional moral agent himself.

many times the problem of the church lies in the complete rejection of the technè (the naturalistic fallacy); as to say we should completely surrender ourselves to the grace of God; thwarting our own desire for him. this is illusionary as well. the technè as means is the expression of our free will towards God. if we were to purely surrender ourselves to his grace, we would not express a conscious, intentional will for him, which is what the technè is. consequently, we would worship him as robots without a desire for him. they don't see the technè as an expression of a desire for the Other, yet it leaves room for the Others' grace, for him to reveal himself to that desire of the self. the balance is the key. as is the acceptance that technè is an invitation instead of control.

Awesome post. I wonder just how much in-depth theology the OP's pastor has ever read.

OP, it would help a lot to know what denomination of Christianity you belong to, and what their position on mind-altering substances is. If you belong to a church that's highly authoritarian, and where even the politest dissent against church doctrine (as interpreted by the pastor and his superiors) is not tolerated, then I think you're fighting a losing battle right from the start. People who are willing to open their minds with psychedelics don't typically find much comfort in any highly authoritarian institutions.

I don't think you have to throw away religion entirely. (I can't say I'm flattered to see my name on the same line of text as Richard Dawkins.) But I think you'll soon find yourself separating the wheat (spiritual fulfillment) from the chaff (social conformism). Not all religious communities stress or enforce the latter, especially those who are true to Jesus' message of love, acceptance, and personal relationship with God.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Strong trips resulted in me believing in a universal spirit, the Infinite, God, whatever you want to call it. They played a strong role in my loss of faith in Christianity.


EDIT: These trips weren't on LSD, but srsly, all psychs can take you to (roughly) the same place.

 

[NexusRex]

i've had very little spiritual experiences with LSD alone, but when used in conjunction with other things has led to some very spritual results. Try smoking some DMT while peaking on LSD. simply blows your mind.

 

[killo]

If you've never had a spiritual experience on LSD then either you aren't taking enough LSD or you didn't take it in a good setting.

Try taking it alone and keep the cannabis to a minimum. Keep the music off.

Try it, seriously LSD is the most spiritual molecule I've come across. Kicked mushrooms out of the water as well, it showed me my true self as a beautiful and all-knowing being much like a Buddhist or Hindu God. As a matter of fact I even felt these gods.

It doesn't even take a ++++ dose to get a spiritual experience, take it alone!