Lysergamides [LSD Subthread] Spiritual Experiences / Plus Four / ++++

[Dondante]

the demonic in christian discourse is essentially a metaphor for a loss of self to something external in exchange for an illusion of autonomy/power (to sell ones soul to the devil). this external thing then begins occupying a central position within the self as a necessairy 'relay' between the self and the means for which end it is used (the promise). the problem is that the contact established would always have to be mediated through this external third. by this very fact itself, the original goal for which the external third element is used can no longer be truly reached/internalized; because the mediator already occupies the central position, instead of the sought after itself. the promise can no longer be fulfilled ([full] [fill] [you]) because the mediator remains at all times present as obstruction to this fullness.

for case in point, LSD as mediating religious experience; one has the following defences: the psychedelic acts as a catalyst. while it does function as a technic mean to an end; it does make room for the desired end [if used correctly!]. ie. while the original experience is mediated by a technè, this experience can serve as motivation, or a guide(line) for which one strives in sober life. one recognizes the need to make it 'real' for oneself outside the realm of the mediation. thus the catalyst dissolves/retreats from the reaction instead of perpetually claiming its position as necessairy 'communication relay' hampering true unity of the dialoguees. note that the church can just as easy express itself demonic or catalytic.

at the root of the demonic lies this ambivalence. you could refer your pastor to the ancient greek root 'daimon'. originally this was a benevolent spirit inbetween men and gods.
in conclusion: the means or technè in itself does not have a moral quality. the demonic comes in existence through an abuse of the technè that does not respect the fundamental otherness/being-in-itself of its end anymore. instead it usurps both its user and the good he desires through its use. the boon should be recieved in grace because it is Will, and will is by definition free. but this responsability towards the Other lies with the intentional moral agent himself.

many times the problem of the church lies in the complete rejection of the technè (the naturalistic fallacy); as to say we should completely surrender ourselves to the grace of God; thwarting our own desire for him. this is illusionary as well. the technè as means is the expression of our free will towards God. if we were to purely surrender ourselves to his grace, we would not express a conscious, intentional will for him, which is what the technè is. consequently, we would worship him as robots without a desire for him. they don't see the technè as an expression of a desire for the Other, yet it leaves room for the Others' grace, for him to reveal himself to that desire of the self. the balance is the key. as is the acceptance that technè is an invitation instead of control.

I always enjoy reading your posts. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, they are often enlightening.

 

[azzazza !?]

why thank you :D /bows
i reckon it half a miracle when i manage get them out in a somewhat readable fashion

 

[jamaica0535]

take what you will from it....

One of the fundamentals of most christians faiths is its not up for you to do the interpreting of what is right and wrong, simply to accept what your told and to abide by it....

I don't consider myself to be a christian or atheistic, more of the agnostic direction...

We were created from gods image, who is to say that we can not make up our own minds as far as what we believe is right, your not doing this out of a hedonistic mindset, your experiencing something the church generally is not going to accept, and that is the bottom line.

That being said, there is a difference between spiritual and religious....

My first acid trip was something i would consider spiritual, if i were a more firm believer in the christian faith, i would go so far as to say i had a glimpse of what heaven might be like....

 

[killo]

My first acid trip was something i would consider spiritual, if i were a more firm believer in the christian faith, i would go so far as to say i had a glimpse of what heaven might be like....

But perhaps you had a glimpse of heaven but in your own subjective way?

Buddhism which is a philosophy and not a religion even speaks of a heaven.

My personal belief is that heaven does exist, in states of being. We can experience it subjectively.

What I am saying is Christianity did not create the idea of heaven, rather they interpreted it their own way. But my personal view is that Christianity is one of the worst religions. A lot of their beliefs are too closed minded and don't allow a person to live to their full potential if they follow this strict code. The history of Christianity alone causes me to thoroughly renounce it, so much killing in the name of blind faith.

Buddhism, a philosophy from the east makes more sense and I like it.
Hinduism, a relaxed religion makes more sense and has lots of good philosophies like Buddhism. I like it too. This one is even open to other religions, unlike Christianity...there's not just one way.

So yea, Christianity sucks. God is not a bearded caucasian that sits in the clouds waiting for us and to ask us why we didn't goto church. Rather God is a state of bliss that we can experience, a more knowing avatar of ourselves that exists everywhere and is part of us because "he" or "it" is inside of us. He just needs to be accessed, that's what a spiritual experience is to me.

Meditation is one way to get that state of bliss, psychedelics are another. All subjective.

 

[azzazza !?]

christianity is more then the caricatures it has oftentimes become. whether you like christianity or not, it is our western cultural heritage. and as such, our values and thoughts are very much influenced by the christian ideology. one should not make the mistake of believing one is a 'tabula rasa' sort of objective subject, that without roots, and as such free from outside infuence, freely decides for itself in its projected sphere of absolute autonomy. (ex nihilo). Our culture works in our backs, we do not have a direct access to or control over these workings. many if not all of our big thought patterns, such as individuality (individual responsability towards immutable universal truth) and the 'progress' idea (eschatology) for example, are very deeply rooted in christian ideology. we think with these conceps, not about them. they precede thought, create the space within one thinks. in fact, it is nearly impossible to step outside them. these ideas are actually the eyes themselves through which we see the world. in this sense, (and well, all the others as well) christianity is still the most powerful religion of the world, and holds reign over many an atheist without him even realising. this what is referred to with the term discourse (Foucault).

Delving into christian thought is very rewarding in terms of understanding ourself, and really the only way if one truly desires to do so. we will never understand the eastern philosophies in the way an easterner understands himself. the very language we use is a part (infact its the strongest one) of our discourse. We simply do not have a direct route of access to them. the way we see eastern philosophy is always from the perspective of a dialogue. and while conversing with the other is very rewarding (and necessairy) in terms of seeing and understanding oneself, it is imperative not to overlook or forget (seinsvergessenheit!) one's own root-position in that dialogue as an other; that it is, in fact, a dialogue.

 

[killo]

Hmm, I don't know if I completely understand what you mean azzazza.

Christianity is the most powerful? Depends what you consider powerful. I could care less who has the most money, it's certainly Christians. I don't know exactly the signifiance.

I can't say Christianity has any power over me, I think a lot about it and renounce it only because I was raised Catholic and besides compared to Eastern religions and philosophies it's kinda a joke. The original teachings of Jesus are great, I can dig that. But I don't believe in a pope who tells aids infested countries to not use condoms. Why cause more suffering?

Also, I don't know about you Europeans but I understand Eastern Philosophy and culture WAY more than I understand my own western heritage in the US and event traced back to Europe.

Seriously. I even dislike eye contact, it's too intense in normal dialogue and yet in western society it's consider rude if you don't look them in the eye.

"Culture is not your our friend"
- Terrence Mckenna.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYB0VW5x8fI

 

[azzazza !?]

Christianity is the most powerful? Depends what you consider powerful. I could care less who has the most money, it's certainly Christians. I don't know exactly the signifiance.

in terms of indirect influence. i consider western culture as a whole extended christianity (as in: "something that flows forth out of, while differentiating itself from". i have trouble finding an english term for it. perhaps "the child of")

But I don't believe in a pope who tells aids infested countries to not use condoms. Why cause more suffering?

though i see the root of his argument, i find it extremely out of place, and ill-nuanced. not to mention downright irresponsable to put it in such a direct fashion. that said, i consider it another examplary expression of the naturalistic fallacy i mentioned earlier. i encourage anyone to think for himself. i despise authoritarianism and ultramontanism. and i don't like this pope. at all.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

I think azzazza'a point is that [Roman Catholic and Protestant] Christianity is simply a supernatural extrapolation of the basic way Westerners think, relate to each other, and see their place in the world. Likewise, Hinduism is just a thoroughly Indian way of conceiving of spirituality, that's consistent with the way Indians conceive of their secular world. Every culture uses metaphors for capturing the divine, that are a direct reflection of the mundane world they see around them.

It's psychedelics, and other mystical experiences, that drive home the point that these are merely culture-bound metaphors, and the world beyond our human experience really transcends words, images, and culture altogether.

I was raised Roman Catholic. Even though I don't practice anymore, and have become much more of a spiritual freelancer, R.C. Christianity is still deep in my bones. Its imagery and metaphors still guide the way I think, speak, and act, on a very subconscious level.

The academic and intellectual history of the West in the past 2 centuries has been overwhelmingly the work of Jewish atheists. You look at the work of any of these scholars, even those who themselves were never raised as believing Jews, you'll see Judaism and Jewish mindsets written all over them: argumentative and incisive rationality, and a contempt for those content to wallow in irrationality, an aching heartfelt yearning for deeper meaning in hardship but a strong worry that there's none to be found, and a strong sense that it's this life, this world, that matters, not some heavenly beyond. Exactly the same themes you'll see in a lot of Jewish theological commentary from the days before the West accepted and integrated them.

 

[azzazza !?]

to clarify ours in contrast with an example of eastern culture; the easterner relates to truth in a more 'coherentist' way. you see this reflected in the Chinese governments quirks. as a country, community or corporate organisation, it is very important to them to show themselves as 'one face' to the world outside. the ideal is where every participant is in perfect sychronisation, harmony and with all others; the elimination of ego-self (as opposed to our strong cultural emphasis on the individual 'maverick'). the worst thing that can happen to an easterner is 'to lose his face'; while for us the worst thing is to 'sin' against something we deem universal/foundational (human rights for example)

the reason why we find the dialogue with the other so enlightening is the fact that each culture tends to over-emphasizes itself, thus the other side is 'refreshing'. but from ones inescapable position, the other is in its deepenst essence a radical alterity. also, neither one can reach its ideal perpetually (total autonomy vs total loss of self). there is no selflessness without a self being selfless: it is a delicate balance between expression and surrender.

 

[Shambles]

Surprised nobody's mentioned The Good Friday Experiment yet. A group of divinity students were given Psilocybin in a double blind study and many reported an experience of religious rapture indistinguishable from its non drug induced equivalent.

The study was repeated again a couple of years ago with similar results - article on it here.

And on the LSD side of things, a report - again from a divinity student - of his experience in 1960.

Psychedelics and religion can get along very well together - it doesn't have to be a choice. In fact, from what I recall most of the volunteers who had these religious experiences under the influence of psychedelics claimed it reinforced their faith. I'm not religious but I can quite how it could be the case

 

[B9]

Maybe the Good Friday Experiment was a sort of loss leader for the demons

 

[killo]

It's psychedelics, and other mystical experiences, that drive home the point that these are merely culture-bound metaphors, and the world beyond our human experience really transcends words, images, and culture altogether.

I still find high doses of LSD to be very eastern-like in the way their religions are. LSD always reminds me of Hinduism and Buddhism.

I think that if there were religions that were more truthful than others it would be Hinduism most of all. It's the oldest and it seems to really make sense. I've come to understand Hinduism more ever since I tripped LSD alone.

Just look at Hindu art, that stuff looks like someone was tripping on LSD when they created it. LSD was even called "the yogi medicine" by a famous guru from India back in the 60's.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/hindu-god.jpg
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/i...-of-Wisdom-and-Good-Fortune-India-Posters.jpg
http://tattoo4u.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/hindu-buddhist-gods-ebook-400.jpg

 

[azzazza !?]

if i had a favourite religion it would be hinduism. but they all have their advantages and shortcomings, i think

 

[Shambles]

^ I said the same thing in a P&S thread ages ago. Hinduism's probably my favourite religion but I don't believe it as such - just think that out of the main religious options it fits best with the way I see things. Perhaps. Has a fair few dodgy bits too like they all do though

Maybe the Good Friday Experiment was a sort of loss leader for the demons

When it comes to fighting to good fight, every little helps... or is that fighting the bad fight?

 

[Chips]

As for 500 mcg of LSD....LSD very very rarely produces a ++++ experience...usually ++++s only happen on LSD when you get into the multiple milligram range (5,000 mcg+), and still it is rare. 5-MeO-DMT is the most likely substance to produce a ++++. If you truly had a ++++, you would be outside of your body, unable to move AT ALL, void of an ego, and you would KNOW because you would be reborn. LSD produces +3 or +3.5 experiences quite easily at higher doses.

Sorry, but you are completely wrong.
As shulgin explain, it has nothing to do with intensity. You can even get ++++ without drug at all. I get myself into this state with only around 12mg of 4-ho-met, with low visual, completely able to speak and move. It's not a question of ego loss, or reborn. It's just the revelation of who you are and where you came from.

There is already a ++++ thread on bluelight:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=452951
I feel like the author of this topic could have a ++++, but i'm not so sure.

My pastor told me that this was the 'demonic realm' trying to access and speak lies into my life, these 'lies'... being a twisted version of God's real promises for releasing our full potential for the world living for Him.

If you really have a ++++, then you already know who is wrong and who is right.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

If you really have a ++++, then you already know who is wrong and who is right.

Word. I'll smoke to that.

I myself have yet to find the courage, and the right set and setting, to aim for a 4+. When I do, it'll probably be DMT, though LSD would be a close second if I have the time to commit.

I think that if there were religions that were more truthful than others it would be Hinduism most of all. It's the oldest and it seems to really make sense. I've come to understand Hinduism more ever since I tripped LSD alone.

When I took a course on Religions of the World, I learned that Hinduism has preserved by far the most aspects of the pagan/animist Indo-European cosmology and philosophy (what the pagan Greek religion was a part of, and what Wicca has attempted, with a smidgen of success IMHO, to reconstruct) of any present day Indo-European people. The faith of the Kalash people of Pakistan, if they haven't been completely Muslimized by now, might be the only exception. Who knows just how far back into prehistory this tradition goes, and what long-forgotten but powerful influences shaped this amorphous, primeval worldview.

India probably would have been hit with the Muslim streamroller, if it hadn't been for the British colonizers. And it's funny, because despite the atrocities the British committed in the course of colonizing South Asia (and all the places they grabbed), and the rather harshly stratified society Hinduism has always promoted (which is why Islam enjoyed fair popularity, as a religion that's historically delivered much more equality), I am in the end glad Hinduism survived, because it really gets to the heart of the human experience like few other extant and established worldviews. I really would like to see India create a modern, equitable Hindu-majority nation, though I'm mixed on whether or not they'll pull it off.

 

[Shambles]

I myself have yet to find the courage, and the right set and setting, to aim for a 4+.

Without wishing to go all Yoda on ya, seek you not - won't find. +4s come out of nowhere and - as mentioned above - it makes no difference which drug is involved or how much of it. Or even if a drug is necessarily involved at all. You really can't aim for a +4 and hope to achieve it - they just happen if you're very lucky

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

^ I guess my ship has yet to come in, then.

 

[Shambles]

Yours and possibly mine to, MDAO. I'm still undecided on whether my "+4s" fit into Shulgin's particular worldview so guess we'll just have to keep on keepin' on till that ship comes in, Sailor

PS: I've had my fair share (I think?) over the years but it's so subjective I don't really believe in scorecards when it comes to this kinda stuff.

 

[jamaica0535]

But perhaps you had a glimpse of heaven but in your own subjective way?

Buddhism which is a philosophy and not a religion even speaks of a heaven.

My personal belief is that heaven does exist, in states of being. We can experience it subjectively.

What I am saying is Christianity did not create the idea of heaven, rather they interpreted it their own way. But my personal view is that Christianity is one of the worst religions. A lot of their beliefs are too closed minded and don't allow a person to live to their full potential if they follow this strict code. The history of Christianity alone causes me to thoroughly renounce it, so much killing in the name of blind faith.

Buddhism, a philosophy from the east makes more sense and I like it.
Hinduism, a relaxed religion makes more sense and has lots of good philosophies like Buddhism. I like it too. This one is even open to other religions, unlike Christianity...there's not just one way.

So yea, Christianity sucks. God is not a bearded caucasian that sits in the clouds waiting for us and to ask us why we didn't goto church. Rather God is a state of bliss that we can experience, a more knowing avatar of ourselves that exists everywhere and is part of us because "he" or "it" is inside of us. He just needs to be accessed, that's what a spiritual experience is to me.

Meditation is one way to get that state of bliss, psychedelics are another. All subjective.

indeed, i just have certain fundamental dissagrements with many of the apsects of christianity, i would have prefered to grow up in a buddhist lifestyle.... I have seen one too many good people die in this world, death is an inevitability, i know.... There is supposed to be some greater purpose for us, it kills my faith in god when you see those who truely had the potential to do great things in their life die so very young with so many things left undone.... Not to mention all the killing in the name of blind faith, i denounce any religion that justifies the killing of what are supposed to be "gods children" just because they believed differently. Most of the major conflicts through history have had their roots in faith justifying the means....

if there is a god, or a heaven, it is a state of mind that rest within us all....