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☛ Official ☚ The Big & Dandy DOC Thread - Third opinion

Quick question: what do you guys think would be a better time to dose (~2mg) - Friday evening or Early morning on a Saturday?

My main concern is sleep - I haven't had as much as I could over the last week so I'd like to avoid loosing too much more over the weekend. I was thinking of taking it this evening (Fri) so that even though I'd likely not get any sleep tonight, I would have both Saturday night and all of Sunday to recover. However, I'm now toying with the idea of waiting 'til tomorrow morning as that way I might not loose a whole night's sleep if taken early enough (say, 8am). I know DOC's effects can linger for a fair while but, being a regular user of amphetamines (therapeutically; not recreationally), I am kinda' used to sleeping through residual stimulation and even before that, I've been known to fall asleep while peaking hard on shrooms on several occasions (which a fair few people find hard to believe) so I'm not too sure.. Any suggestions/comments?
 
early morning on a saturday, at least if it affects your sleep patterns like it affects mine. i often times can't sleep for 36 hours after a dose. that means dosing friday evening could potentially lead to no sleep til sunday morning!
 
Come to think of it, I'm still a bit stimmed up as it is, so it'd probably be worth waiting until the morning to take the DOC in isolation of other potent stimulants for that reason if nothing else - could lead to excess vasoconstriction and such otherwise. So yeah, I think that's the way to go. I guess tripping when feeling fresh from a half-decent night's sleep could only be a good thing too.

Also, has anyone taken kratom while on DOC and if so, how did they combine and at what sort of dosage (relative to tolerance)?
I reckon a small dose may be called for in the morning in absence of the speed I normally require to get myself in gear. A full dose Sunday morning/noon might be nice too.
 
furryfreek said:
Quick question: what do you guys think would be a better time to dose (~2mg) - Friday evening or Early morning on a Saturday?

My main concern is sleep - I haven't had as much as I could over the last week so I'd like to avoid loosing too much more over the weekend. I was thinking of taking it this evening (Fri) so that even though I'd likely not get any sleep tonight, I would have both Saturday night and all of Sunday to recover. However, I'm now toying with the idea of waiting 'til tomorrow morning as that way I might not loose a whole night's sleep if taken early enough (say, 8am). I know DOC's effects can linger for a fair while but, being a regular user of amphetamines (therapeutically; not recreationally), I am kinda' used to sleeping through residual stimulation and even before that, I've been known to fall asleep while peaking hard on shrooms on several occasions (which a fair few people find hard to believe) so I'm not too sure.. Any suggestions/comments?
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Definitely the morning. I usually end up taking it at around noon or earlier, and even 2mg (I usually take 3) will make it hard to sleep that night, even if I drink a lot of alcohol (I really enjoy alcohol on the tail end of DOC). Etizolam or some sedating benzo will do the trick though, at the end of it.

Taking DOC at night isn't the best idea IMO. I've done it but I definitely didn't sleep til the next night. I mean 6 hours in and you're still peaking, there's a long way to go from then.
 
I tried DOC for the first time last wednesday at only half a milligram, around noon and I couldn't sleep until 5AM. When I try again at a proper dose I'll definitely drop as early as possible.
 
My deer little hamster lost his head. This was his third time taking it but only now had it kicked our heads in. ..


he started talking about not being able to see "Anything"... and then he just went insane. I got him to the hospital and i stood by his side; But what i have just went thRough and experienced i would wish on no one.


It couldn't have been a miscalculation because i took the same amount.
He snapped. I spent my entire trip by his side, reassuring him that he wasn't about to die.
5 hours in he was still thrashing so they had to put him out. .. i made sure he was alive and asleep by the time i left.

Here's a few things worth mentioning. ..

I was asked multiple times if we were drinking throughout our use, he had only HALF of a shot of whiskey to mix with the doc. .. they asked twice if we were drinking RUBBING ALCOHOL or mixing drinking and taking the substance. . We did neither.

He was predisposed to a bp2 or adhd of some sort. ..never professionally diagnosed?
But that is definitely the reason he's a train wreck and I'm sitting here just fine.


Also. ..
 
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I tried a 2.4 mg dose a couple months back with very mild results. I felt like I was coming up for the entire time (10-12) hours with a few zen moments from time to time. Was hard to sleep but smoked myself asleep after trying real hard haha. It seemed like I just didn't take enough but was surprised because of my reading on this compound and most peoples experiences from similar doses. I wonder if the purity is an issue but shouldn't be... I'm pretty experienced with psyches so maybe higher doses will get me somewhere more interesting.
I have hopes for the DOx compounds, although not always easy to come across.
Also, I plan on reading through this whole thread but was wondering if somebody wouldn't mind letting me know, what is used to mix doc with when administering through IM?

Thanks and I'll be reporting back if there are future results.
 
I'm very interested in trying DOC after hearing such wonderful things about it from people here. I'm planning on doing a lot of hiking/camping/fishing this summer so it'll be nice to have something else to choose from besides LSD and Shrooms. I'm going to have to track down a source for it ASAP from either a local buddy or the usual places. :)

I'm going to go through the megathread later on again but hopefully this will be the one that replaces 5-meo-mipt for me as my "hiking RC" since I no longer desire to mess with moxy.

Be safe all.
 
There has been at least one case of anion gap metabolic acidosis with respiratory failure requiring care in an intensive care unit following ingestion of the drug, as well as a fatality via respiratory depression currently awaiting autopsy to check for a possible drug combination interaction.[citation needed"

THIS HAPPENED TO MY FRIEND LAST NIGHT. .
They wouldn't stop taking about acidosis and he's staying in the INTENSIVE CARE unit for probably three days at least. ..

please be careful everyone. I almost lost my friend last night and we did NOTHING different. . We even had the exact same amount.
 
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Go back and review the last page. I mentioned DOC produces the same toxicity as NBOMe drugs in me. I reviewed my notes and am elaborating on this.

Originally people, in general, claimed NBOMe drugs were safe. I consumed 25I-NBOMe frequently over 1mg, often vaporized. I didn't notice negative side effects at first. After modifying my drinking habits and abstinence from drugs I began using NBOMe drugs again. These chemicals caused progressively negative side effects at lower doses than I had previously consumed. These were the new effects from NBOMe drugs.

During the experiences:
-Stool often turned white
-Urine often turned clear.
-Strong bitter taste in my mouth regardless of ROA

Approximately 2.5 hours after the experiences began:
-Dark urine
-Black stool
-Strong liver pain (I could occasionally feel my liver click against my ribs, inflammation?)
-Tips of my fingers burned
-Unstable pulse
-Unstable blood pressure
-Emotional instability
-Strong sweet taste in mouth
*These effects lasted several days and faded as my tolerance faded.


The most concerning detail is these drugs were safe then later the exact same batch of drugs was dangerous at lower doses. These adverse effects became progressively worse eventually forcing my discontinuation of NBOMe drugs. I had the same experience with DOX chemicals.

In the past I used various DOX chemicals with few noticeable side effects. Later I used DOC on several occasions. The first was ~2mg and caused several days of the previously mentioned negative side effects. Months later I consumed lower doses and had stronger negative effects. I haven't taken DOC since.

This inconsistency is concerning. With DOC and 25I-NBOMe the same person could experience different physical responses taking the same drug at different times.



TLDR: I suddenly began experiencing physical complications from DOC and 25I-NBOMe.
 
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There has been at least one case of anion gap metabolic acidosis with respiratory failure requiring care in an intensive care unit following ingestion of the drug, as well as a fatality via respiratory depression currently awaiting autopsy to check for a possible drug combination interaction.[citation needed"

THIS HAPPENED TO MY FRIEND LAST NIGHT. .
They wouldn't stop taking about acidosis and he's staying in the INTENSIVE CARE unit for probably three days at least. ..

please be careful everyone. I almost lost my friend last night and we did NOTHING different. . We even had the exact same amount.
Click to expand...

Can someone with more knowledge than me expand on what happened here? I'll be trying it in the next few weeks and this has me worried.
 
http://www.narconon.org/drug-abuse/stimulants/toxic-organs.html

I really don't want to recollect EVERYTHING but for the sake of safety i will always share. ..

A friend and I liked psychedelics. We've always been an unlikely duo for this kind of thing. It was a private, closely monitored process every time. THIS MEANT NOTHING.
We had decided to add another .2 to each dose - total 3.2 each.

Down it goes; and after a few bowls it's already hitting us hard. I panic and double check the numbers. Even if i made a mistake it would have been minimal. I threw up, again and again. Then pure bliss. .. then my friend started saying he was losing his vision.

I thought he was coming up so i happily trusted myself and just kept convincing him it would pass. .
It didn't; it got worse, and i had to drive him to the hospital as he was beginning to slip into his own head. He forgot who he was, where he was - every ten Seconds. He began to be combative and i left him downstairs to get emergency.

He was almost an exact case mentioned in the Wikipedia article. I stood by his side as he screamed for mercy for 4 hours, strapped to a bed. Two cops holding him down. It took them 4 HOURS to put him out. He was put on a breathing machine and was forced to live off machines for a day and a half.

This was most likely from the "acute acidosis" he was experiencing and he almost died. I remember seeing his heart at 160bpm if i recall correctly.

Basically his heart was pumping so hard that it caused some acute acidosis of some sort that could have ended it. At least THAT'S WHAT I HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND.

He pulled out his breathing tube while in restraints at one point. Anything they injected him with wore off within ten minutes.
This shit is powerful. It has stopped my general interest in drugs. And i realize now like others have -the stuff only works the first few times and then you REALLY start to see some concerning possible side effects. .


Brown urine
kidney problems (I'm actually betting DOC is why my kidneys are so screwed up and I'm seeing a specialist )
Shits throughout entire trip, regardless of food intake.
Tougher come up
Possible serotonin syndrome (i have taken this before and just felt ill , sweaty and gross, with mini seizures likelightning going off in my brain.
Manic episodes that endanger yourself or others...



Just know that sometimes even the same drug can have different - and life threatening - results. We thought it could never happen to us. . Little did we know one of us were a ticking timebomb..

I'm glad it ends now. Or else i would never have given it to the cops and perhaps I'd be the one dying next time.

Be careful and just consider..

I bet it's very hard on kidneys as normal/less powerful amphetamines damage kidneys through constant use. . Imagine a drug more powerful and what that might do inside you.
 
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I took 5 times my regular dosage of DOC, which would be 15mg, I would feel better about it than if I took 5 times my normal 2C-B dosage (which would be 150mg). Or pretty much any of that class really.
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Both are suicide. Regardless of how SAFE you guys think this stuff is; it's not. You can use responsibly , but you're dancing with the devil and damaging your body. Let's take 15mg and get a heart murmur and die.
I encourage anyone using to stop. See if your body makes it past 50. There's a reasons Shulgin only tried this a FEW times.

It took an extra .2-.4 to almost kill my friend. So i wouldn't take this shit so lightly anymore.
 
Well, that sort of smashed my expectations..

Besides a small dose of 4-ACO-DMT a fortnight ago, I hadn't tripped for about six months and this was only my second ever trial of DOC (the first was before my six month break and was just a ~0.5mg "allergy test" - a slight psychedelic buzz but no visuals or anything.) Having not tripped much recently, and being wary that a small amount of my 8+ month old DOC solution could have evaporated over time, I decided to take just 1.8ml of my 1mg/ml solution. Unfortunately, I was a bit too cautious and decided to mix the doc into a glass of water and drink that over the course of an hour instead of just taking it all at once (something I tend to do to prevent nausea from chemicals like mescaline) which obviously extended the come up which takes more than long enough as it is.

Having prepared everything and got my self psyched up about the impending trip the night before, the anticipation kept me awake for a while. It must have been around 2am when I finally got to sleep but that didn't last long as I awoke at about 6am (T+0), two hours earlier than my alarm was set. I decided I may as well get started but try to stay in bed for a while.

First alerts - a feeling of tension, mostly in my shoulders - were felt within about 45 minutes of starting to drink my DOC water, at which point I decided to get up out of bed and neck what was left (between 1/3 and 1/4). At around T+1:00 I was feeling quite uplifted and in good spirits, albeit groggy so I decided to take two grams of a relatively stimulating variety of kratom and have a shower. The shower felt really good and made me feel nice and refreshed but not long after (about T+1:30), I started to become quite melancholy and very lethargic. My thoughts were negative, erring on paranoid and were somewhat disjointed, though I was still relatively "with it" compared to many of the moments of insanity I've endured when coming up on other psychedelics. By T+2:30 the negative thoughts had mostly subsided but I was still feeling a quite uneasy and my thoughts were still pretty scattered. By this point, my vision seemed to be altered in some subtle way that I couldn't quite identify but there wasn't any actual morphing or patterning or anything going on. That changed shortly after I loaded myself a pipe of bud. The visuals that ensued were mild but interesting. Text on my computer screen was all morphing around weirdly, though anything I wanted to focus on stayed relatively still and could be read without difficulty, the only problem being the subsequent interpretation and processing of whatever I had just read. Luckily, I could now see the funny side of my messed up cognition and just laughed it off instead of getting hung up about it like I was at first.

I didn't really have any specific expectations of what doc would be like nor any particular plans for the day but I kind of thought it would be a chilled out but intellectual and mentally stimulating experience. I still think that is broadly a fair assessment of DOCs effects, but I had sort of implied from that that I would likely spend the day listening to tunes, thinking deep shit and what not which isn't quite how things panned out. What happened instead is that I thought briefly about the actual content of some of my earlier negative thoughts as opposed to merely worrying about the anxiety and discomfort they caused. This thought wasn't particularly deep, intellectual or long lasted; it was more like an instant realisation than a train of thought. The crux of it was that I've been pushing myself pretty damn hard, unprecedentedly so, the last few months since starting to treat my ADHD. The medication certainly helps and, for me personally at this particular time, the benefits outweigh the negatives but it's not without consequence. I have been more or less constantly wired for more than six months straight. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a "speeding my tits off" sort of wired; just an artificially induced state of attentiveness and concentration, without which I would be more or less incapable of keeping up with my work. The thing is, although skipping a day of medication isn't too big a deal, it messes with the sort of equilibrium that arises from regular and consistent usage, thus resulting in a few days of unpredictable sleep, slight mood swings, varying incidence of side effects and such like. I obviously try to avoid that so I rarely, if ever, get a chance to properly unwind and I've become so wrapped up in work that my social life has been totally neglected, no doubt leading to increased levels of social anxiety further down the line.. Oh joy.

Anyway, I knew now that I wasn't going to spend the day getting lost amidst music and thought. Sort of on auto-pilot, I switched off the lights and drew the blinds but left my window open to hear the birds, the distant sound of the motorway and other random noises (I'm in a fairly urban area but my bedroom is up high and with its window facing away from the road and other sources of particularly loud/annoying noise) and just sort of meditated for about six hours from T+3:00 to t+9:00. That was without a doubt the most blissful experience of my life to date - a state of piece I hadn't previously thought possible, and from an amphetamine of all things. After that, I alternated between watching videos and blissing out until around 9pm (T+15:00) when I decided to eat some benzos to (a) get to sleep at a reasonable time and/or (b) sleep in 'til like noon. I started with .5mg of etizolam - rarely enough to get me to sleep at the best of times but I would normally at least feel it and use that as a benchmark. That did nothing so I took another .5mg half an hour later which I did feel, but only slightly and without making me at all drowsy; just a bit chilled out and a wee bit clumsy. With the prospect of an early night looking doubtful, I ended up taking a couple of other longer acting benzos: .5mg of pyrazolam and 1mg of diclazepam. By no later than 11pm (T+17:00) I was sleeping like a baby and awoke 12 hours later, still feeling quite sedated and groggy. I took my usual self-prescribed ADHD treatment (3-flouro-phenmetrazine; 80mg/day) which pretty much counteracted the lingering effects of the prior nights benzos. A slight afterglow persisted until about T+36:00.

The duration of this stuff does seem to take its toll; I was felt quite exhausted by the evening despite doing barely anything the whole time, though having only 4 hours sleep beforehand probably didn't help. It'll be at least a month or two until I try this again, hopefully a bit better prepared.
 
Drew. said:
There's a reasons Shulgin only tried this a FEW times.
Click to expand...

well, not to draw away from the rest of your cautionary tale, but this isn't quite right. the reason they didn't explore the other DOX's as much is because they much preferred DOB.

you definitely have me scared, though. i never use DOC at high doses, but i've used it at least dozens of times in my life...
 
Obscene said:
Can someone with more knowledge than me expand on what happened here? I'll be trying it in the next few weeks and this has me worried.
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DOC has caused at least one death through high anion gap metabolic acidosis.

The anion gap is a measure of the difference between actual serum pH and the the serum pH that would be predicted by summing the measured cations and anions in serum. It's called the anion gap because this difference is accounted for by unmeasured anions. Anion gap acidosis just means acidosis due to an excessively large anion gap.

Anion gap acidosis is generally a result of ethylene glycol or methanol intoxication, lactic acidosis either after acute ethanol intoxication or rhabdomyolysis, ketoacidosis either as a result of rhabdomyolysis or diabetes, or kidney dysfunction.

Acidosis in psychedelic overdose most likely occurs through 5ht2a-induced rhabdomyolysis due to hypoxemia through peripheral tissue vasoconstriction alongside muscle tremor, or through renal vasoconstriction (which basically results in temporary kidney impairment). There's plenty of precedent for this renal vasoconstriction in psychedelic overdoses--I've seen at least one report of a methallylescaline overdose resulting in difficulty urinating and a hospital visit, although the doctors in that case wrongly hypothesized that methallylescaline impaired renal function through an anticholinergic effect.

Either way, acidosis is a common symptom of NBOMe overdoses but is not the primary mechanism in their toxicity. Rather, it is merely the inevitable result of massive 5ht2a-induced hypoxic rhabdomyolysis--both through lactic acidosis as direct product of muscle breakdown, and through general acidosis secondary to the toxic effect of myoglobin on the kidneys.

On the other hand, in cases of acidosis where rhabdomyolysis isn't present--as generally occurs with reasonable doses of milder drugs like DOx or tri-substituted phenethylamines--renal impairment is purely temporary--lasting only for the duration of drug-induced vasoconstriction. Acidosis itself can be partially compensated for by hyperventilation (compensatory respiratory alkalosis), meanwhile renal function can be restored easily through administration of a vasodilator. In these cases, acidosis is still a medical emergency if left untreated for too long, because acidosis can itself cause rhabdomylosis, leading to the cascading organ failure typical of NBOMe overdoses as I described above.

HOWEVER, it's pure nonsense to suggest that there's some sort of cumulative toxic effect of psychedelic drugs other than NBOMe on kidney function. If you take DOC one time and don't experience rhabdomyolysis, then the experience will not have in any way contributed towards the induction of acidosis in a future drug experience.

For everyone else: renal impairment on psychedelics seems to vary widely between people. If you have impaired renal function, you shouldn't take psychedelics. Meanwhile, even if you have no cause to believe that you have impaired renal function, be cautious because you don't want to find out the hard way--I suspect most cases of acidosis in psychedelic drug overdose occur in people with a renal acidifying defect. HOWEVER, acidosis is not a complication unique to DOx and NBOMe drugs. It's also been documented with mescaline and it's analogues, 2C-Xs, and even with tryptamines. Consider that acidosis through renal impairment will be directly proportionate to the vasoconstriction present during the drug experience. As high-affinity, high-intrinsic-activity 5ht2a partial agonists, the DOx series are substantially less safe to use than LSD or the 4-hydroxylated tryptamines, and notably can induce a greater degree of vasoconstriction in overdose (thus proportionately increasing the risk of acidosis via renal impairment). But it's incorrect to suggest that they share the risks of nbomes. While nbomes, which have only been available for a very short while, have been known to kill--frequently--at doses not much higher than the recommended dose, there are only a handful of deaths from DOx compounds across their entire 50+ year history of use. Meanwhile there are countless cases of SEVERE overdoses on DOx which have in fact not killed their victims.

Case in point: the report on shroomery that was just linked a few pages back. The kid only lost his toes. No one could take 100mg of an NBOMe and live to report it.

It absolutely must be acknowledged that the DOx drugs as a class carry significantly more risks than LSD or psilocin: if you overdose you should expect to pay the price, and chronic overuse probably contributes to left ventricular hypertrophy and mitral valve disfunction (no surprise at all that shulgin needed an artificial heart valve). But, used occasionally and at sane dosages, they're still remarkably safe drugs. Treat them intelligently and you'll be fine.
 
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You guys are idiots.
His kidneys are failing and . Fuck bluelight, you guys don't advocate for safety, you push facts farther away so you can keep your highs going.

HE HAS MUSCLE DAMAGE IN HIS KIDNEYS. HE HAS BEEN PERMANENTLY DAMAGED FROM DOC.3 DAYS LATER AND HES STILL I'M ICU.
HE CAN BARELY BREATHE AND THIS WAS OUR THIRD TIME USING THE SAME SHIT.

nothing was different other than he almost DIED. You guys want to play devils advocate for this stuff? Go do it. Let's let YOU watch your friend dying in front of you for 4 hours and see if you'll even consider this bullshit again.

Good riddance .

I'm done with this forum. I fucking warned you. If you die after ignoring this for a few more years I'll be glad to piss on your graves.
 
Oh heyyyyyy! Let's blame a chemical because something went wrong! Woooohoo! I mean it definitely probably has NOTHING to do with that persons lifestyle....

For all you know that guy was tittering on the edge on life(and yes you can be life threatening sick and not know until something like this happens)and his weakened body couldn't take the extra strain and gave up.

There is years of evidence that DOC is fine if used correctly and in moderation! Shit I'm tripping pretty hard on 2mgs right now, haha!
 
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