☛ Official ☚ The Big & Dandy DOC Thread - Third opinion

[SteamboatBillJr]

You guys are idiots.
His kidneys are failing and . Fuck bluelight, you guys don't advocate for safety, you push facts farther away so you can keep your highs going.

I don't, after experiencing direct toxicity with DOC I have been warning of this drugs unpredictability.

 

[pharmakos]

it should be noted that when i take DOC, i always pre-dose with L-Arginine and CoQ 10. that's something i do before a lot of my drug experiences. in this case, perhaps it is also one of the reasons why i have never noticed toxic side effects from DOC. L-Arginine is a vasodilator, in particular it helps kidney function. CoQ 10 potentially helps doubly -- it aids kidney health and also helps give energy to your muscles when you're in a crisis that could lead to rhabdomyolysis.

i personally have probably seen experience reports from at least a hundred people who have tried DOC since i started experimenting with it 8 years ago. thousands and thousands of people have tried the stuff since it became available over the internet. there are now only 2 known cases of high anion gap acidosis. compare this with how quickly hospitalizations from NBOMe piled up when that hit the scene. there were dozens and dozens of negative reactions reported within just a few months of the stuff hitting the scene.

it really does suck that your friend drew the shortest straw, but all evidence shows that he had one of those ~0.01% chance negative reactions.

Oh heyyyyyy! Let's blame a chemical because something went wrong! Woooohoo! I mean it definitely probably has NOTHING to do with that persons lifestyle....

For all you know that guy was tittering on the edge on life(and yes you can be life threatening sick and not know until something like this happens)and his weakened body couldn't take the extra strain and gave up.

There is years of evidence that DOC is fine if used correctly and in moderation! Shit I'm tripping pretty hard on 2mgs right now, haha!

eh, please don't mock the guy, Help. we don't know enough to say either way whether it was other lifestyle factors that exacerbated the condition. i actually am leaning towards thinking that the guy was most likely pretty healthy. just one of those fluke chances...

 

[Xorkoth]

Both are suicide. Regardless of how SAFE you guys think this stuff is; it's not. You can use responsibly , but you're dancing with the devil and damaging your body. Let's take 15mg and get a heart murmur and die.

I wouldn't take 15mg, I was trying to illustrate a point with numbers in comparison to things people don't tend to talk about as dangerous. I know people on here who have taken 10, 12mg a number of times, and been fine. I'm not going to do that either, nor would I recommend it, nor did I recommend it to them. My recommendation to someone wanting to try DOC is to start at 1mg (after an allergy test of a very small amount), then 2mg, and then go up by .5 increments and hopefully settle in at a maximum dosage of 3-4mg, depending on individual response. My friend likes it but has never taken it past 1mg... and that's cool too.

It just appears to me that people promoting the dangers of DOC recently are blowing it way out of proportion. The evidence does not suggest that DOC or any DOX is even remotely close to as dangerous as the NBOMes. People have died from other psychedelics too, it's true that when you take these things you're exposing yourself to risk. So be smart, and don't abuse them, and dose accurately, if you choose to use them. I'm not saying it's harmless, I don't think any drug is harmless. Presumably if you're taking drugs at all you're aware that there is a risk involved and you're accepting that risk as worth it.

You guys are idiots.
His kidneys are failing and . Fuck bluelight, you guys don't advocate for safety, you push facts farther away so you can keep your highs going.

HE HAS MUSCLE DAMAGE IN HIS KIDNEYS. HE HAS BEEN PERMANENTLY DAMAGED FROM DOC.3 DAYS LATER AND HES STILL I'M ICU.
HE CAN BARELY BREATHE AND THIS WAS OUR THIRD TIME USING THE SAME SHIT.

nothing was different other than he almost DIED. You guys want to play devils advocate for this stuff? Go do it. Let's let YOU watch your friend dying in front of you for 4 hours and see if you'll even consider this bullshit again.

Good riddance .

I'm done with this forum. I fucking warned you. If you die after ignoring this for a few more years I'll be glad to piss on your graves.

I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm sorry about your friend. Of course DOC carries some risks (as do all psychedelics to varying degrees), but I'm not going to write it off as a result, instead I'll use it intelligently, and I'd recommend anyone I thought to be sufficiently cautious and able to handle psychedelics to do the same, should they express interest.

Really though, I'm sorry about your friend, that's terrible. I hope I don't sound callous, it's just that this thread is about DOC and I feel that the misinformation being spread is that these are too dangerous for anyone to use.

 

[Help?!?!]

I

it should be noted that when i take DOC, i always pre-dose with L-Arginine and CoQ 10. that's something i do before a lot of my drug experiences. in this case, perhaps it is also one of the reasons why i have never noticed toxic side effects from DOC. L-Arginine is a vasodilator, in particular it helps kidney function. CoQ 10 potentially helps doubly -- it aids kidney health and also helps give energy to your muscles when you're in a crisis that could lead to rhabdomyolysis.

i personally have probably seen experience reports from at least a hundred people who have tried DOC since i started experimenting with it 8 years ago. thousands and thousands of people have tried the stuff since it became available over the internet. there are now only 2 known cases of high anion gap acidosis. compare this with how quickly hospitalizations from NBOMe piled up when that hit the scene. there were dozens and dozens of negative reactions reported within just a few months of the stuff hitting the scene.

it really does suck that your friend drew the shortest straw, but all evidence shows that he had one of those ~0.01% chance negative reactions.



eh, please don't mock the guy, Help. we don't know enough to say either way whether it was other lifestyle factors that exacerbated the condition. i actually am leaning towards thinking that the guy was most likely pretty healthy. just one of those fluke chances...

I didn't mean to mock him really, I just wanted to get it out there. I can't stand when people instantly blame the chemical, it's super rare to actually find out that a drug truly caused a said condition, except in cases of extreme things like the benzo black out insanity. I too lean towards it being one of those flukes. If that's the case it's just that, a fluke. People just want something to blame, in doing so they cause uneeded panic. Most times it's just scare mongering.

People need to understand as well, they took the chemical. No chemical is truly safe, IMO there's always room for mishaps with chemicals. Always a chance of things going side ways, whether mental or physical!

I wish the nothing but the best for anyone ailing and a speedy recovery.

 

[pharmakos]

IMO its like a debate i had recently about vaccinations. there's lots of people that feel strongly both ways about vaccinations. the people that are against vaccinations tend to get made fun of by the people that are for vaccinations. but then there are cases like my friend's diabetic son whose sugar spiked up to 2700 and had to be hospitalized after a vaccination, or a girl i went to class with who almost was paralyzed by a 1 in 10,000 adverse reaction to a flu vaccine. and there's no way you'd be able to convince either one of them that vaccines are a good thing. even though 99.99% of people that get vaccinated don't have any negative reaction at all.

drew's mind is made up now after ending up in a horrible situation. that's totally understandable, and there's no way that we could -- nor should -- try to change his mind. however, is it going to stop those of us that have used DOC safely dozens or hundreds of times? no. does that mean he should stop putting his story out there? no. he absolutely should be here telling us his story.

in fact, i hope he isn't done with this forum for good, because i would like to hear updates about his friend. please let us know how things pan out, drew.

 

[InterestingFACT]

You guys are idiots.
His kidneys are failing and . Fuck bluelight, you guys don't advocate for safety, you push facts farther away so you can keep your highs going.

HE HAS MUSCLE DAMAGE IN HIS KIDNEYS. HE HAS BEEN PERMANENTLY DAMAGED FROM DOC.3 DAYS LATER AND HES STILL I'M ICU.
HE CAN BARELY BREATHE AND THIS WAS OUR THIRD TIME USING THE SAME SHIT.

nothing was different other than he almost DIED. You guys want to play devils advocate for this stuff? Go do it. Let's let YOU watch your friend dying in front of you for 4 hours and see if you'll even consider this bullshit again.

Good riddance .

I'm done with this forum. I fucking warned you. If you die after ignoring this for a few more years I'll be glad to piss on your graves.

I understand that this is an emotional issue for you, and I'm not asking you to consider using DOC again or to recommend it to anyone else. However, please try to understand that, as a harm reduction forum, bluelight's mission is to report the facts as accurately as possible. Your opinion that DOC is not worth the risk is valid--it's just not acceptable to further this opinion by misrepresenting the nature of its risks. It's much better to give prospective users an accurate assessment of the side effects, contraindications, and warning signs they should look out for than to warn a few more people away at the cost of increasing the risks in those who still choose to use the drug.

As I explained above, the "muscle damage" in your friend's kidneys is due to the toxic effects of myoglobin released during systemic rhabdomyolysis as a result of acidosis. Any kidney impairment actually induced by DOC or any other psychedelic drug--or for that matter for any other amphetamine--is a purely temporary effect caused by vasoconstriction lasting only the duration of the drug. Your friend's kidney damage was not induced directly by DOC, but rather as a consequence of the acidosis that this temporary dysfunction helped to cause. Drug-related kidney problems are highly comorbid with pre-existing renal acidifying defects--these defects are more common than you likely suspect, with an incidence of around 6% in measured populations, and also predispose people towards incidence of kidney stones, glomerular disease, interstitial and tubular nephritis, and uremia. To give a face to this point: you mentioned that amphetamines have been observed to cause kidney dysfunction. Renal acidifying defects and/or existing partial tubule acidosis are present in nearly 100% of amphetamine-related acute renal failures.

This doesn't mean that it's "not DOC's fault." The fact of the matter is that DOC is a significantly more risky drug in people with existing kidney abnormalities--whether they know of these abnormalities or not. But this is important information for them to know--because it will also increase the risks associated with use of alcohol, amphetamines, or even cannabis. Additionally, they are quite likely to have kidney related health complications such as kidney stones, chronic partial or acute renal failure, glomerular disease, or nephritis later in life regardless of their substance use.

For the sake of harm reduction I'm also going to mention a number of other risk factors--which I'm not accusing your friend of having--that people should be aware might increase the severity of vasoconstriction during a DOx trip:
-Chronic partial or acute sleep deprivation
-Excessive meat in diet (increases acidity of blood, increases concentration of creatine which converts to creatinine and contributes to kidney toxicity and hypovolemic electrolyte imbalances under acidic conditions, damages lipid profiles resulting in vascular stenosis, hardened arteries, high blood pressure)
-Inadequate green foods in diet (reduces effectiveness of pH buffering system, thereby impairing resistance to acidosis)
-Inadequate food intake before and during trip
-Inadequate hydration (thickened blood, impaired pH buffering, hypernatremia, hypercalcemia, hyperkalemia, hyperthermia)
-sensitivity to adrenergic drugs (via DOC's strong effect on alpha 2 adrenoceptors)
-sensitivity to serotonergic drugs (via DOC's strong effect on SERT)
-sensitivity to vasoconstrictive effects of psychedelic drugs (via DOC's strong action on 5ht2a and 5ht2b)
-preexising renal acidifying defect, kidney stones, partial renal acidosis, glomerular disease, nephritis, uremia, or other issues with kidneys
-steroid use (through damage to lipid profiles, thickened blood)
-simultaneous alcohol intoxication (additional disposition towards acidosis through lactic acidosis, adrenergic activity)
-simultanous stimulant intoxication (additional predisposition towards vasoconstriction, high blood pressure, dehydration and associated hypovolemic electrolyte imbalances, inadequate nutrition, inadequate sleep, etc.)
-obesity and/or poor physical wellbeing (low vascular elasticity, stenosis, high blood pressure, poor lipid profiles, etc.)

Lastly.... and I don't mean to put too fine a point on this because I'm sure you feel bad, but if you can't respond appropriately in an emergency situation while tripping (and that's perfectly understandable) then you need to keep a sober tripsitter with you to take care of these things. Health-related complaints should never be brushed off, especially when dealing with drugs like DOC that have a riskier profile than the classical psychedelics. Vasoconstriction should be treated, and measures should be taken immediately when symptoms of acidosis or rhabdomyolysis appear: benzodiazepines, l-arginine and l-citrulline, 5ht2a-mediated muscle relaxers such as cyclobenzaprine, and antipsychotics are all good things to have on hand to treat symptoms as they appear. In addition to this, you must also consider the very real possibility that you didn't correctly measure his dose.

Drugs of the DOx class are by no means harmless--and they in fact DO have cumulative toxic effects through 5ht2b-mediated cardiac tissue proliferation and 5ht2a-mediated excitotoxicity in serotonergic and glutamatergic neurons. But they don't have cumulative toxic effects on kidney function. Nor are they unpredictable--they follow a consistent dose-response curve that is effected by quantifiable risk factors, and complications from their use present with clearly indicated warning signs which should prompt treatment with easily available tools. There are many people who can't or won't use such a high level of care when using this compound, and it's important that they should not be using DOC. But it's equally important that all of this information be available to those who choose to use DOC so that they can engage in educated safe practice.

I wish all the best to your friend.

 

[Help?!?!]

Well I would think by now that we might know each other to know a bit what were about. I would never discourage a person from providing a report of a drug mishap. We need those data points and people should know, like you were saying about vaccinations that there's always danger lurking with chemical use. Were not technically supposed to be putting really anything but food and water in our stomachs. We have evolved to deal with it through sometimes very advanced chemical elimination. Our bodies are like fine tuned machines, it makes every chemical it needs, and dispenses them in apporiate amounts. Throwing other chemicals into the mix....eh, that's like trying to supe up a car, but the car can only go so fast for so long. Traveling at such high speeds, moving to much could cause a spin out. Also it reminds me of adding flammable material to a fire. It can only get so bright for so long, one mis step, to much fuel to the fire, misplacing wood compromising the structure.

 

[Just A Guy]

Sorry to hear about your friend, Drew.

Bluelight's Mission:

BLUELIGHT.ORG: Reducing Harm by Educating the Individual

Bluelight is an international, online harm-reduction community, committed to reducing the harm associated with drug use.

Bluelight neither condones nor condemns the use of drugs. Rather, we accept that drug use will always exist irrespective of legal status or societal norms. While there is no truly safe way to use drugs, we understand that prohibition and abstinence are not realistic or desirable solutions for everyone, nor have they been adequate in addressing the serious public health concerns associated with drug use.

While there is no universal definition of drug-related harm reduction, Bluelight believes that through frank and open discussion we are able to deliver accurate information, eliminate misinformation and empower individuals to make wiser, more responsible choices.

Bluelight understands that drug use encompasses a broad range of behaviors, some safer than others, and that drug use can progress towards increased risk with some individuals. We encourage our community to be honest and cognizant of their drug use and understand the warning signs of abuse and addiction before they manifest.

Bluelight also hosts a robust recovery community for those seeking a way out of drug abuse and addiction. These forums invite visitors to discuss addiction and sobriety in a non-judgmental setting, share recovery resources and encourage members to seek help. We believe there are various roads to recovery, including 12-step programs such as Narcotics/Alcoholics Anonymous and alternatives such as SMART Recovery.

Bluelight’s overarching philosophy is a simple: Meet people where they are and encourage open dialogue that empowers the individual to be the primary agent of her own physical, mental and emotional wellbeing.

 

[Xorkoth]

Great last few posts. I hope we can all respect each others' standpoints and agree that the aim here by all is to prevent harm. Being irresponsible isn't the way to do that, but neither is prohibition, whether personal or legal.

 

[SteamboatBillJr]

People continue talking down the dangers of DOX chemicals. They falsely claim toxicity is low, predictable, and dose dependent. My experience shows these things, in the end, foster significant unpredictable toxicity risks.

Though if you won't take my word consider Alexander Shuglin's. Shulgin invented DOX chemicals. These were the earlier and less developed of the phenethylamines Shulgin created. Shulgin moved away from the DOX chemicals because they exhibited inferior safety profiles and excessive duration.

The obvious step to go was take off the methyl group and get away from the amphetamine chain. So I took the methyl group off and that gave 2C-B and then 2C-I, a host of other materials in the same ilk, that was just a beautiful rich collection of compounds. Many of them not as potent as the amphetamines but shorter lived and much more benign and much more friendly than the corresponding amphetamines.

Source: A FEW WORDS FROM OUR ELDERS, Psychedelic Salon podcast #200 (~25:00)

 

[Help?!?!]

Guy, what don't you understand here honestly?!? Were not talking down the dangers of DOX chemicals. Your one single individual and you had an individual response. To me it's like almost if you were allergic to DOC, that CAN happen to anyone, but it's not out this world, it's rare as hell.... I've never heard much about people seeming to have that sort of response but it still exists and just like what happened to you, we'll weigh the risks. Possibly one of out thousands of uses are allergic, it could be even rarer, like one in a hundred thousand. Just like that though we'll input your experience as well as the one hospitalization(I don't count the other as eating a shit load of DOC your asking for it....). Still though by pure statistics I've seen maybe a handful of posts where so dove really didn't like DOC or had a strange reaction to it. So ten in thousands of safe uses.... Just by what I see, those are pretty great. Put a batch of heroin addicts together and give them unlimited dope. Say you got a group of one thousand H addicts, probably at least fifteen or more would probably fatally overdose given enough time. Give psychonauts an unlimited supply of DOC and at worst their going to be tripping a few times a week, maybe someone would lose the plot but time and soberity can usually heal that.....

All your doing is denouncing DOC because of your reaction to it. That's not cool and to me it's just infantile. Yes by all means please(!) tell us all about your negative reaction to DOC but why do you have to try to rake at DOC is beyond me. I've done a terribly long list of chemicals, do you honestly think with that many chemicals I never had one that reacted badly with me? Of course I did! Looking at these chemicals though they had thousands of reports on its use on BL alone. After inquiring I noticed only a handful of fairly negative reactions to it. We all have very individual pharmacology and IMO you'll always see a pool of users who get bad reactions. To me it's just science and statistics. If you look at medication pamphlets if you have certain prescriptions, they have lists. It'll say "Common Side effects(20-40%ish)", "Rare side effects(10-20%)", "Strongly adverse reactions(3-9%)". I'm sure we all highly appreciate sharing your experience with us!

I mean if anything you go to the DOI thread. Much lower doses, longer duration, and more adverse side effects at higher doses than DOC. Also of course Shulgin moved on from amphetamine based phenethylamibes. Their duration is a bit impractical for often use unless maybe you more like me who's experienced and really digs chems with a long duration. In a way to a point the longer the better. Anyways of course Shulgin would move away from high potency chemicals that people would need a sub mg scale to weigh doses with, plus the impractical duration.... Still though note that one of Shulgin magical half dozen is DOM, he may have moved on from DOxs but it doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile chemicals. To me in my mind I imagine a great mind like Shulgins to just be very practical. Plus in a sense from what I read the 2c-x family had more viable canidates at least off hand.

 

[Just A Guy]

I thought you were talking to me for a sec. lol

 

[Help?!?!]

I thought you were talking to me for a sec. lol

Haha, no way man your post was solid gold!

 

[Erikmen]

Sorry to hear about your friend, Drew.

Bluelight's Mission:

BLUELIGHT.ORG: Reducing Harm by Educating the Individual

Bluelight is an international, online harm-reduction community, committed to reducing the harm associated with drug use.

Bluelight neither condones nor condemns the use of drugs. Rather, we accept that drug use will always exist irrespective of legal status or societal norms. While there is no truly safe way to use drugs, we understand that prohibition and abstinence are not realistic or desirable solutions for everyone, nor have they been adequate in addressing the serious public health concerns associated with drug use.

While there is no universal definition of drug-related harm reduction, Bluelight believes that through frank and open discussion we are able to deliver accurate information, eliminate misinformation and empower individuals to make wiser, more responsible choices.

Bluelight understands that drug use encompasses a broad range of behaviors, some safer than others, and that drug use can progress towards increased risk with some individuals. We encourage our community to be honest and cognizant of their drug use and understand the warning signs of abuse and addiction before they manifest.

Bluelight also hosts a robust recovery community for those seeking a way out of drug abuse and addiction. These forums invite visitors to discuss addiction and sobriety in a non-judgmental setting, share recovery resources and encourage members to seek help. We believe there are various roads to recovery, including 12-step programs such as Narcotics/Alcoholics Anonymous and alternatives such as SMART Recovery.

Bluelight’s overarching philosophy is a simple: Meet people where they are and encourage open dialogue that empowers the individual to be the primary agent of her own physical, mental and emotional wellbeing.

Perfect!!

 

[Xorkoth]

People continue talking down the dangers of DOX chemicals. They falsely claim toxicity is low, predictable, and dose dependent. My experience shows these things, in the end, foster significant unpredictable toxicity risks.

Though if you won't take my word consider Alexander Shuglin's. Shulgin invented DOX chemicals. These were the earlier and less developed of the phenethylamines Shulgin created. Shulgin moved away from the DOX chemicals because they exhibited inferior safety profiles and excessive duration.

The obvious step to go was take off the methyl group and get away from the amphetamine chain. So I took the methyl group off and that gave 2C-B and then 2C-I, a host of other materials in the same ilk, that was just a beautiful rich collection of compounds. Many of them not as potent as the amphetamines but shorter lived and much more benign and much more friendly than the corresponding amphetamines.

Source: A FEW WORDS FROM OUR ELDERS, Psychedelic Salon podcast #200 (~25:00)

I don't see how the part you quoted has any bearing on what you claimed was the reason he moved away from DOXs. I suspect when I get substantially older I will probably no longer want to use DOXs either, they do take more of a toll than many other things. Personally I enjoy long durations when the effects are nice, so for me DOC's duration is not a downside. For some, it is, and they can choose not to use it, having been supplied with information about it.

Also, how "developed" of a phenethylamine it is has no bearing on its value as a drug.

Anyway I already said what I have to say about this matter. I'm sorry for those who had a bad reaction to DOC or any drug. Doesn't mean I'll stop using it, or that I will try to tell everyone to stay away. I think my reasons for this are solid and that I'm not promoting harm by providing my viewpoint.

 

[Help?!?!]

^I was actually think about that when I was posting. Your right, I think DOC has to high a toll for someone of an older fashion. I'll most likely stop when or if I get to a certain age. Maybe just maybe if feeling spry, the planets align, and there's a blue moon, I may do a low dose.

Steamboatphill how old are you if you don't mind me asking, would be interesting to get a but more relevant data(though you may have posted it in detail and I missed it...).

 

[InterestingFACT]

People continue talking down the dangers of DOX chemicals. They falsely claim toxicity is low, predictable and dose dependent. My experience shows these things, in the end, create significant unpredictable toxicity risks.

Though if you won't take my word consider Alexander Shuglin's. Shulgin invented DOX chemicals. These were the earlier and less developed of the phenethylamines Shulgin created. Shulgin moved away from the DOX chemicals because they exhibited inferior safety profiles and excessive duration.



Source: A FEW WORDS FROM OUR ELDERS, Psychedelic Salon podcast #200 (~25:00)

You're misrepresenting what was stated as an observation after a change as the reason for the change--the reason removal of the alpha methyl was the obvious next step is because other existing psychedelic phenethylamines (mescaline) werent alpha methylated and because the addition of substituents at 2,4,5 might resist monoamine oxidase sufficiently in its absence. Keep in mind that Shulgin was a research chemist. His motivations are not your own.

After experimenting with the 2c-x series, he discovered that they had fewer side effects and shorter durations. There's no question that these are positives--at least for most people on the duration front. But this doesn't change anything about the nature of the risks involved with DOx compounds.

 

[lamanogaucha]

@ Xorkoth & Help: Your conjecture regarding long-lasting psychedelics vis-à-vis age is generally true. I'm in my late-forties, and in my experience, some psychedelics that last significantly over twelve hours tend to outstay their welcome, especially on the body. For example, TMA-6 leaves me physically wiped out. Actually, the trip itself is unusually harsh on my system. DOC is also tough, albeit less so. On the other hand, 2C-P and 2C-T-4 (both of which I regard very highly) are much kinder to me, even if I'm doubleplustired toward the end.

 

[kidklmx]

So I figured from reading this would do for my ultimate festival drug. Obviously dose/response varies greatly between users, but given that I score about "average" in heardheadedness, I would guess 3mgs should do the trick for me? It would be my first time with this chemical, but a good trip is what I'm looking for. My use case would be: drop this in the afternoon, hang out with friends, watch some bands from afar, you know, have a trip at a festival. Then once the stuff has peaked I'll use whatever is left of the material to dance deep into the night, like I would on 2C-b or whatever.

Is this a sound plan to you guys? Also, would alcohol be a yes later on, or will my body be too worn out to cope with that? Trying to get all of the surprises out of the way with a serious chem like this..

 

[psykedenlitenment]

Tbh, ime, this is very forgiving. I'm still working my way to a sweet spot. 2 mgs isn't quite enough and3 mgs definitely on the stronger side. You should prepare for your event by titration. Hr and ask that jazz...

I recently tried a 2+/- mg expexperience followed with 150 ug al-lad about 5-6 hours later. Horrible timing. I was more or less in the DMZ. No man's land. Limbo.Almost somewhere, but really, no where. Mostly irritating. May try again, with different timing, stronger DOC dose. Not quite sure as some supplies are running low.