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x is safe

All deaths caused by using E are due to either A) pills cut with dangerous substances or poison. or B) drug related violence.

legalizing MDMA would more or less solve that situation.

I'm all for it.
 
CloneNo2111 said:
All deaths caused by using E are due to either A) pills cut with dangerous substances or poison. or B) drug related violence.

legalizing MDMA would more or less solve that situation.

I'm all for it.

c) too much water, or too little water.
 
^^^ C is a lot more common than A and B. I guess I don't really know what your saying by drug related violence either???

Seems to me as if E is a lot safer than alcohol... I know tons of people who pop and have never heard of deaths or injuries but I know plenty of people who have at least gotten hurt when drunk and I know one dude who was killed in a car accident as a passenger of a drunk driver. People I know are usually rather safe when they pop.
 
which is one of the more interesting part of the study, was it didnt just do drug damage but also the social and violence aspects!

I dont like bars cause im a very open fun kinda guy and there normally is 1 drunk ahole that gets offended by something I do (look at them 'wrong', they misinterpret something I said) and i am a marine and i've already had my run in w/assault with a deadly weapon charge (got off hook but i throat jabbed someone)

Im a happy drunk but i cant deal w/all the angry drunks
 
CloneNo2111 said:
All deaths caused by using E are due to either A) pills cut with dangerous substances or poison. or B) drug related violence.
i wouldn't go as far to say that all the deaths caused by using mdma are from harmful cuts and drug related violence but a great deal do contribute

what about overdosing on ecstasy? it's so easy to do so, i mean, if you're talking about pressed pills in this situation, without testing them, how do you know how much of what substance it contains?

it's almost too easy to OD on this kind of shit, you can't say e is safe but you can definitely say it's safer than it's said to be

anyone disagree? 8)
 
Can you show me one report (unbiased on either side of course) that stated that someone died of an Ecstasy overdose? I personally, have not seen one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
 
Newbierock said:
So your telling me something that pretty much ko's you the next day isn't damaging you?

Theres a reason you have a comedown.

You need to take the context of the hangover into consideration here, people.

Youre all ignorant in saying "If it makes you feel bad the next day, it has to be bad for you"

Take exercise as a comparison. I work out very hard one day, the next day i feel like utter shit and dont want to move. Let's call this an "exercise hangover". To assume then that exercise is bad for you would be ludicrous, and even ridiculous to assume, since we know for a fact that exercise is beneficial. The body is a miraculous machine that can repair itself in short periods of time. The brain is no different. When the body is faced with a challenge that may push it beyond its limits, it compensates by activating various processes. Think fight or flight. When faced with danger, the body releases massive amounts of adrenaline to compensate for the extra need for blood and energy. Once the danger is gone though, adrenaline will still overflow for some time. The body doesnt know that it is no longer in danger, so it keeps releasing adrenaline until a predisposed time. It then realizes it no longer needs the adrenaline, and stops producing it. It is no different with taking drugs, and doing exercise.

The brain has similar reactions with neurotransmitters. Let's look at what ecstasy's effects really do, to asses if the "hangover" is the cause of damage, or the cause of stimuli compensation.

ECSTASY'S EFFECT: (i suggest going through this slide show to help understand it better (http://www.dancesafe.org/slideshow/index.html )
Ecstasy causes your brain more or less to over-excrete serotonin, and block its re-uptake causing an overabundance of serotonin in the synapse to be available to receptor sites. Ecstasy's effects last quite a while, somewhere up to 10 hours after ingestion, before it is removed from the blood stream. For those 10 hours, the brain is being flooded with more serotonin than it is used to.
As we all know, this causes a miraculous response in the brain to help compensate for that over-excretion. Much like the body's response to exercise by building stronger and more available muscle tissue, the serotonin receptor sites actually RECEDE back into the neuron, causing less receptors to be available for serotonin delivery.

Well....as most of you know again, once the 10 hours are over, and ecstasy is no longer affecting the release of serotonin, your brain goes back to releasing the usual amount it was used to before MDMA was introduced.

Now think...

The same amount of serotonin as before, but less receptor sites. This causes less serotonin to be used, thus causing the depression people sometimes feel the day after. It takes the brain awhile for it to realize that it is no longer being flooded with serotonin. It then re-compensates to the lack of serotonin by making receptors available again. The danger of abuse comes in here. By not allowing the brain time to re-equalize itself in serotonin excretion, taking another dose of ecstasy will cause even more duress, and throw off the equilibrium even more than the first.

The "hangover" is just the body overcompensating to a situation it is not familiar with.The brain's majesty doesnt end here, however. With the right care (much like after a long week of exercise) the body will naturally heal and migrate back to its original function, and the depression recedes.

Sit on your ass for a year, then go run 10 miles, and tell me the day after how good you feel. I bet you wont go running 10 miles again the next day, will you? Your body couldn't. You would face injuries, and extreme pain the whole time. Over-exercising can be just as bad as abusing anything. Its easier to disregard health on the weekend and pop a pill, than it is to disregard health and go running 10 miles again. So, yes, ecstasy is easier to abuse than something like exercise, which makes it entirely easier to be unhealthy with it.

People are well informed about how to correctly and safely exercise to gain the full benefits of the experience. Shit, American children are usually forced to take some sort of health and phys ed class in high school or middle school to learn about how to correctly perform exercise. Information on drug use is no different. The problem lies in the research and the legality of the drug. What is the correct amount of time to wait for the body to equalize and calibrate again? No one will know unless it is researched more, which cant happen unless countries lift the ban on MDMA availability to research facilities and universities. Unless research is allowed to happen, we (MDMA users) are all just guinea pigs in a worldwide research project to tell the effects once we get old. It doesnt help us that the government banned the substance, it only hurts us by restricting possibly life saving information to be found.

INFORMATION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN PROPAGANDA!

Use ecstasy in moderation. Make sure to stay safe. Dont abuse the drug, and allow your body time to level back out to its normal state. These things are as important as allowing your body time to heal after exercise.

If you take care of your body, stay well informed about the drug, and not abuse the drug, the drug will not abuse you.
 
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xthunderbirdscx, all I can say is WOW!

This is ridiculous. You are sore the day ofter exercise because of small tears in your muscle tissue, which is repaired and causes new muscle to be formed when your body has proper rest and nutrients.

An MDMA hangover is alot more complicated than receptor downregulation. For starters catecholamine depletion is a major issue for about a month following MDMA administration in recreational doses. A disruption in the balance of serotonin, norepiniphine, and dopamine is also making your feel shitty. Also MDMA is a strong stimulant which runs your body down and is absolutely awful for your cardiovascular health. Go look up some studies on the effect of MDMA on heart tissue, they are not encouraging. And you also conveniently ignore the oxidative stress issue which damages axons to varying degrees, probably long term according to current data. Also MDMA has a tendency to exacerbate pre-existing depressive tendencies in individuals (although I must admit MDMA use and depression are more often comorbid than causal, none the less it makes already present depression worse).

Work out everyday and you will no longer be sore given the correct diet and rest, drop E repeatedly and you become progressively more Etarded. I do not understand why so many of you try to sugar coat this drug. It is just a 4 hour coke high in a pill. Just because you saw a few tracers and gave out hugs doesnt make it harmless. By all means use as much MDMA as you please but do not try to post complete and utter BS on a harm reduction board because it makes you feel like less of a fiend. Trying to compare exercise and dropping E is probably the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard.
 
there are clinical trials being run in south carolina right now as to the safety and effectiveness of mdma in treating mental/emotional conditions.
 
CloneNo2111 said:
All deaths caused by using E are due to either A) pills cut with dangerous substances or poison. or B) drug related violence.

legalizing MDMA would more or less solve that situation.

I'm all for it.

Nope, a number of people have died from using pure MDMA - through dehydration, hyperthermia or water intoxication.

You do allude to an interesting point though - people who have (e.g.) been hit by cars or fallen and hit their heads while on MDMA have been counted as MDMA deaths, when quite possibly the drug had nothing to do with their death. And certainly, a number of "ecstasy" deaths were due to adulterants or other substances such as PMA, not MDMA.

I tend to agree with your argument that legalising MDMA would reduce the number of deaths; but it's important to realise that MDMA does pose some health risks. They're relatively small, but they do exist.
 
theWorldWithin said:
xthunderbirdscx, all I can say is WOW! This is ridiculous. You are sore the day ofter exercise because of small tears in your muscle tissue, which is repaired and causes new muscle to be formed when your body has proper rest and nutrients.
Trying to compare exercise and dropping E is probably the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard.

I figured this would come up, so let me first start off by stating I WAS IN NO WAY COMPARING THE EFFECTS OF EXERCISE TO THE EFFECTS OF MDMA.
i was merely making a comparison about how the body responds to unfamiliar situations. I completely understand that mdma is more detrimental to your health than exercise> I was making the simple comparison for my arguement, that just because the body feels tired and depleted does not mean damage has occured. It could merely be an overreaction to an unfamiliar situation.

Work out everyday and you will no longer be sore given the correct diet and rest
This is because your body begins to build a tolerance to the physical labor. Not much different than it building a tolerance to opiates or other things.

drop E repeatedly and you become progressively more Etarded.
First of all, bigger and stronger muscles just so happen to be considered beneficial in some cultures. Still, working out repeatedly undoubtedly leads to tissue damage, which leads to repair and tolerance. Im making a reference to the body's response mechanisms, not a comparison to the effects of ecstasy vs exercise. Dont play me off to be a fool. You knew what i was doing.

An MDMA hangover is alot more complicated than receptor downregulation. For starters catecholamine depletion is a major issue for about a month following MDMA administration in recreational doses.
Lets check back on my last post:What is the correct amount of time to wait for the body to equalize and calibrate again?
I live by the 2-3 month rule stated by the Shulgins. This would more than allow for the body to rebuild catecholamine levels. I did not want to bring Shulgins timescale into the discussion since it has minimal scientific backing, but it still holds a tune to a lot of people. The body with time will repair itself indefinitely. More research will soon provide us with the correct amount of time to leave inbetween doses, thus dragging your theory to the ground. The problem doesnt lie with the use of the drug. It lies with the ABuse of it. I never said anywhere in my post that someone should drop weekly. Most people in the MDMA world know the side effects of sustained, repeated use but choose to ignore it for other reasons. Someone dropping daily very well knows the damage that will cause. An informed and intelligent user, waiting months inbetween doses is far less likely to see any negative effects than the average abuser.

A disruption in the balance of serotonin, norepiniphine, and dopamine is also making your feel shitty.
Way to put exactly what i said into different words and try and use it againt my argument. I stated that MDMA use causes a depletion of, and restriction of, serotonin excretion. Just because the depletion happens, does not mean that the damage was in anyway permanant or harmful. Prozac causes an unnatural imbalance of neurotransmitters, as with many prescription medications. When ceasing use of those, many of the same complications arise as MDMA use, such as prolonged depression.


Also MDMA is a strong stimulant which runs your body down and is absolutely awful for your cardiovascular health. Go look up some studies on the effect of MDMA on heart tissue, they are not encouraging.
Do the same for me regarding caffeine, nicotine, and other legal stimulants.

And you also conveniently ignore the oxidative stress issue which damages axons to varying degrees, probably long term according to current data.
You know this pisses me off. You state that if you take care of yourself during and after exerscise, you can avoid injury. Then you dont apply the same to drug use. Administering high levels of antioxidants and an SSRI have been PROVEN to reduce oxidative stress in test subjects SIGNIFICANTLY more than those who did not. What is the difference in taking care of yourself in streching after a run and giving yourself antioxidants and SSRI's after MDMA use?


Also MDMA has a tendency to exacerbate pre-existing depressive tendencies in individuals (although I must admit MDMA use and depression are more often comorbid than causal, none the less it makes already present depression worse).

Ecstasy is not for everybody

Neither is Prozac, Viagra, Caffeine, intense exercise, MANY foods, or anything else that someone with a high vulnerability to that thing would have adverse reactions to. People with preexisting depression problems should not administer MDMA. Just like people with diabetes need to avoid foods high in sugar, and monitor their blood levels.
Not everything is for everybody, but for healthy individuals, certain things are rewarding for them, but damaging to others. That's how life is.

I do not understand why so many of you try to sugar coat this drug. It is just a 4 hour coke high in a pill.

This quote alone proves to me how ignorant you are about MDMA and its effects on the body. While the experience can feel the same, cocaine has a very different pharmacological effect on people.

Just because you saw a few tracers and gave out hugs doesnt make it harmless.

Just because you've heard a few horror stories and rumors about the drug does not make you an expert on anything.

By all means use as much MDMA as you please but do not try to post complete and utter BS on a harm reduction board because it makes you feel like less of a fiend.
EXCUSE ME? Last time i checked, my final word of advise was "take care of your body, stay well informed about the drug, and not abuse the drug, the drug will not abuse you."
A very sincere word of advise directed at harm reduction. Don't try and backlash at me because you are getting outnumbered by people who are more informed than you.

Thank you, come again.
 
Pathogen said:
there are clinical trials being run in south carolina right now as to the safety and effectiveness of mdma in treating mental/emotional conditions.

I was aware of these trials. I believe there are some studies being done to alleviate PTSD as well. Im saying if the drug were made legal (with prescription or other guidelines) then more clinics could do more studies and produce even more results. I would rather see a coalition effort between any and all universities and clinics interested in testing MDMA to be able to do so. 100,000 scientists from all over the world working on a single problem will discover much more than 10 in a single lab somewhere.

2 minds are better than 1 and 100,000 minds are better than 10.

Not attacking you at all. Just wondering what your thoughts are.
 
World within and Thunderbirds, Its fairly obvious that both of you are quite knowledgeable and I read your posts with great interest.

I would suggest that both of you are a bit better than having to resort to petty taunts etc, hence I would appreciate if you kept that out of your posts.

I can actually see where both of you are coming from and really your messages are not dis-similar.

Cheers lads.
 
Sorry if it seems im attacking you personally, because im not. Im just trying to take the logical steps to a debate. Take an opinion, and discredit it somehow, then present your own opinion and so on...
I would like to hear more from you as your ideas and opinions are good.
 
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xthunderbirdscx said:
I was aware of these trials. I believe there are some studies being done to alleviate PTSD as well. Im saying if the drug were made legal (with prescription or other guidelines) then more clinics could do more studies and produce even more results. I would rather see a coalition effort between any and all universities and clinics interested in testing MDMA to be able to do so. 100,000 scientists from all over the world working on a single problem will discover much more than 10 in a single lab somewhere.

2 minds are better than 1 and 100,000 minds are better than 10.

Not attacking you at all. Just wondering what your thoughts are.
my thoughts are the same as yours. we need more heads on this.
but, at least we have some sort of start. this may build into a larger thing, with more experimentation, and more interest in the subject being generated by media.
 
pullstring said:
as much as i love your arguments.........huh?!?

MDMA is for seritonin
Coke For dopamine

so again huh??

Check out my last long post, 9 quotes down.

I agree with you here. It is false logic, and should not be taken into consideration.
 
pullstring said:
as much as i love your arguments.........huh?!?

MDMA is for seritonin
Coke For dopamine

so again huh??

Actually MDMA causes a great deal of dopamine efflux and cocaine causes serotinin efflux. The subjective differences in the high are due to different ratios of neurotransmitter release and probably also partly due to the time scale in which that efflux occurs (well there are many more differences but lets not get too technical).

I think that it is important to remember that for most users who do not abuse either drug, pure cocaine feels strikingly similar to a less intense MDMA plateu. I make the comparison of MDMA to cocaine in a pill because their fundemental mode of action is quite similar. The mechanics of reuptake pump reversal are unique but the basic idea of stimulants releasing the same neurotansmitters holds true.
 
I am not going to quote you every few sentences because my goal here is not to win an argument but rather to educate people on risks. Furthermore those kinds of replies take posts out of context so I will refrain.

First of all exercise is not an unfamiliar situation to our bodies, they are engineered to repair muscle tears. And your body feels worn down after exercise because it has in fact been temporarily damaged. MDMA on the other hand is a very unnatural situation, our bodies will never to my knowledge release those quantities of neurotransmitters while simultaneously being punished by cardiotoxic stimulants.

The human body does not build a 'tolerance' to exercise such as in opiate use. That is an entirely invalid comparison and referring to two different phenomenon. You are no longer sore because the body builds cardiovascular and muscular strength to better accommodate athletically stressful situations. It increases it ability to deliver oxygen and ATP to cells for metabolism. Larger muscles are able to perform tasks more easily and thus tear less often. Also with greater oxygen and energy muscles lactate less and will not be as sore post workout. Opiate tolerance is a far too complex subject for me to delve into here, but it occurs mainly because of opioid receptors in the brain and has little to do with muscle fitness.

No one is playing you a fool and I have no idea how you even rebutted my statement about becoming etarded by rehashing what I already made clear about muscle tears and throwing out some statement about cultural ideas of physical beauty.

You said it yourself "I did not want to bring Shulgins timescale into the discussion since it has minimal scientific backing". I would tend to agree with you that 3 months is enough time to replenish neurotransmitters but that still does not address the issue of oxidative stress or possible long tern neuroplastic change resulting from abnormally low levels of neurotransmitters (this is a very real and often ignored issue). Not to mention that if SSRI's can cause long term changes to the function of SERTs then there is overwhelming likelihood that MDMA does the same. You claim that the body will repair itself indefinitely with time, please tell that to a cripple. Also just because serotonin axons MIGHT regenerate that does not mean they will be able to assume their previous normal functionality, or any functionality in a neural connective position whatsoever. Thus my argument is not draged to the ground.

The fact that nicotine is legal and cardiotoxic in no way changes the fact that MDMA is a harmful cardiotoxin so I dont really see what your point is. Also you need to check yourself on the caffeine issue, it seems that it has very little if any cardio vascular risks associated with it when not used in conjunction with ephedra.

Yes current studies SUGGEST that antioxidants can help reduce oxidative stress. This does not mean they eliminate all of it, thus MDMA is still causing oxidative stress. Also remember that most of these studies administered the antioxidants IV or IM and not PO. The main beef I have is that many of these antioxidants have very short half lives (ALA for example) and have to be repeatedly administered to be neuroprotective. The post roll SSRI administration theory is totally speculative at this point and I have yet to see any credible peer reviewed studies on the issue. If you could provide some I would be very grateful. But clearly it has not been proven.

I am not weary because of a few horror stories as any educated person can see from my above statements. Also if you have doubt about the deleterious effects of MDMA then I encourage you to attend some local raves and get to know the regulars. They have a wealth of real world experience in seeing many of their friends become E-tarded. Its accepted in pharmacology that if you give a test subject 10 times the recreational dose for a month and see damage, then that can be extrapolated to occasional use to a lesser extent of damage.

So we have damage from:
-oxidative stress (neurotoxicity)
-neurotransmitter depletion
-neurotransmitter level imbalance
-probable neuroplactic rewiring
-cardiotoxicity


I think this has been more or less open and shut. I am not even going to respond until you reply in educated paragraph format and rebut my arguments directly instead of rehashing what you have already stated or calling upon theories and advertising them as proven medical facts.
 
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