• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
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x is safe

theWorldWithin said:
You really expect me to believe that 6.25 servings of alcohol causes a worse hangover than a dose of MDMA, please be realistic.

I really hate to get into this discussion in this forum because its me and newbierock against dozens.
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Your first argument is a little subjective and will vary depending on the person. Personally I rarely "drink" any more due to the fact that I hate the next day blues and yes 6 drinks would be enough to make a mess of me. My brother on the other hand can easily polish off 30 or more beers in a day and have no effects next day..........but he does it regularly.

I also consider that the word "drink" probably needs to be standardised........I will have 1 or 2 drinks every now and then but not consider that drinking as it will have virtually no conscious affects and no hangover affects on me........I drank either to be sociable or to enjoy the taste but not to get drunk or impaired.

mdma is of course a different situation and I will only ever use it to become impaired........I mean thats the whole point really.

The earlier arguments regards drinkers drinking more often does hold some weight although once again one needs to clarify what "drinking" is.

I think its rather baseless to be trying to compare the two in reality as there is just so little info available regards mdma and its affects both long and short term.

Nobody can say with any certainty that one is worse than the other and really its rather pointless anyways.



Regarding yourself and newbie rock against the rest............. I dont think its a case of being against anyone..........if you are only here to be problematic then I suggest you dont bother, but to date your arguments have been reasonably fair and are welcomed for the discussion they are bringing out.

Lets all ensure that the discussion maintains its current high quality and doesnt resort to a shit fight or flame war.
 
Fair enough MazDan, I do not doubt that you suffer a hangover and the blues from a small amount of alcohol. Peoples sensativity varies greatly and your claim is totaly believable.

I also agree that it is almost impossible to compare these two drugs because we are essentially comparing the oldest and most widely abused drug in human history to something that is barely beyond RC status (some would even consider MDMA to be a research chemical but a more comercialized one, myself included).

For the sake of this arguement I think it would be most fair to consider drinking consuming enough alcohol to feel conscious effects. Which I suppose does not help a great deal because of such varying tolerances. I think most people would consider more than 3 drinks to be a drinking session, small as it may be. I know very few people who feel absolutely nothing from 3 + drinks that are not alcoholics (or heavy benzo users).
 
I think I also should explain that prior to using mdma I drank a hell of a lot more than I do now......... so my tolerance for alcohol is now much much lower than what it was........yep it usually takes 3 standard drinks for me to feel anything.

Currently I may get drunk maybe once a year if that.......ie more than say 4 drinks in less than about 2 hours.
 
i agree with the fact that each drug is used differently!

x is used to FUCK u up and most drinkers it varies how they use it....I like a drink here and there but my buddies purposly get hammered when they drink!

i think we r forgetting that the 'danger levels' on the study also took into effect social asspects of the drugs!! X users love each other while u do get people who drink that get violent! (yes i know there r some people who fight on x and other 'lovers' drinking) but if u compare the numbers of happy xer's to angry x'ers and happy drunks to angry drunks the angry drunks would be overwhelming!!

also lets look at driving impairments!! I would love to see stats on DUI's for alchol and x and the fatality rates!
 
I found the following little titbit on Dutch Wikipedia

"De letale dosis voor een muis is 97 milligram per kilogram lichaamsgewicht; aangenomen wordt dat het voor een mens ongeveer diezelfde waarde heeft. Een persoon van 70 kilogram zou dan dus 6,79 gram MDMA in moeten nemen, hetgeen in de praktijk ongeveer gelijk staat aan het innemen van 85 XTC-tabletten."

The lethal dosis [of mdma] for a mouse is 97 milligram per kilogram of body weight. If we assume that roughly the same value can be applied to humans, a person weighing 70 kilograms would have to swallow 6.79 grams of MDMA, which in practice corresponds to swallowing about 85 ectasy tablets.

Apart from this, the sensitivity of people to alcohol decreases with habituation. Anybody who says that they can drink 5 glasses of spirits or 5 beers without feeling a thing is IMHO quite severely habituated.
As we all know habituation is a step on the road to physical addiction.
 
augustaB said:
I found the following little titbit on Dutch Wikipedia

"De letale dosis voor een muis is 97 milligram per kilogram lichaamsgewicht; aangenomen wordt dat het voor een mens ongeveer diezelfde waarde heeft. Een persoon van 70 kilogram zou dan dus 6,79 gram MDMA in moeten nemen, hetgeen in de praktijk ongeveer gelijk staat aan het innemen van 85 XTC-tabletten."

The lethal dosis [of mdma] for a mouse is 97 milligram per kilogram of body weight. If we assume that roughly the same value can be applied to humans, a person weighing 70 kilograms would have to swallow 6.79 grams of MDMA, which in practice corresponds to swallowing about 85 ectasy tablets.

Apart from this, the sensitivity of people to alcohol decreases with habituation. Anybody who says that they can drink 5 glasses of spirits or 5 beers without feeling a thing is IMHO quite severely habituated.
As we all know habituation is a step on the road to physical addiction.
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Mice are not human.
http://www.thedea.org said:
The LD50 of MDMA ranges from about 100-300 mg/kg in assorted rodents.[42] The single-dose LD50 in humans can only be guessed at, but may be on the order of 10-20 mg/kg (oral.) One recent press report claims a ten year-old girl died after taking at least five 'ecstasy' tablets. Assuming the girl weighed about 40 kg (88 pounds) and the pills contained about 70 mg of MDMA each (and no other drugs), she died from a dose of roughly 9 mg/kg.
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augustaB said:
I assume you are volunteering your services for the determination of the lethal dose in humans :)
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The LD50 of MDMA ranges from about 100-300 mg/kg in assorted rodents.[42] The single-dose LD50 in humans can only be guessed at, but may be on the order of 10-20 mg/kg (oral.) One recent press report claims a ten year-old girl died after taking at least five 'ecstasy' tablets. Assuming the girl weighed about 40 kg (88 pounds) and the pills contained about 70 mg of MDMA each (and no other drugs), she died from a dose of roughly 9 mg/kg.
 
personally i just dont think ecstasy would be as fun if it were legal.
same with pot, too. it would just take the fun out of it, and people would be over-indulging in the substance. like look at alcohol, it isnt meant to be taken in irresponsible amount of doses, and they tell you not to, even though thats what most people do anyways. i think thats where you can not compare E to alcohol, the level of abuse is so varied for alcohol, where as each E user is pretty much looking to get fucked up.

i think ecstasy has a place in the american status quote, and thats a dangerous illegal illicit substance. the actual harm of the danger needs to be more thoroughly studied though, i agree with that.
besides isn't there METHAMPHETAMINE in mdma? methamphetamine is like the new buzz word for a dangerous drug to the government/authorities. or thats just what it seems like from all the episodes of DOG and cops ive seen.
 
MDMA and meth are different drugs. E isnt even proven addictive.

basically. if i was an alien that came to earth. and had an option:
take E every few months. Or drink oftenly.
I'd choose E, the evidence is too powerful and direct to suggest that E usage is at a higher risk level than alcohol.

My new slogan: A father on Ecstasy, will outlive a son on weed or alcohol.

its so straight up. so simple.

keep safe people, as a monthly user i can say that my comedowns form from my body exaustion. try dancing 12+ hours straight, i bet you any money, you'll feel worse after than if you were on E. iv done it before, i am the evidence!!!

PEACE PPL!
 
Wanderer said:
My new slogan: A father on Ecstasy, will outlive a son on weed or alcohol.
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Nice slogan ;)

That brings up an interesting point for me... My oldest son just turned 21. and like many 21 year olds, he likes to drink on the weekend. But he does no drugs- I do know this as fact because the group of friends (and his gf) are all really into drinking, but not into drugs. Hell, he even believe(d) all the scary BS "holes in the brain" and "spinal fluid" stories 8)

Meanwhile, me and my wife drink maybe 3 times per year- just not our thing. But roll every month or two. My son knows nothing about our E use.

There's a side of me that wants to introduce him to E so he can get away from thinking that alcohol is the only way to a good time. But the flip-side of me:
* is hesitant about informing him of my drug use
* afraid that this new found glory will make him realize that alot of the "drug evils" he was taught in school are simply not true, leading him into further drug experimentation
* afraid that (since E is illegal) it could get him in trouble with the law someday

So there you have 2 sides of the coin. I know the realities of both E and alcohol, and frankly would rather have my son doing E than alcohol. But the fears of the E outweigh the benefits.
 
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Motorcyclist, the other side of that though is that very possibly sooner or later he will try it or something else............and maybe not be educated about it.

I understand your dilemma.

depends on your relationship with your son but maybe a good long yarn about drugs including plenty of honest educational stuff on not just E may be the key here?
 
^^

I definitely agree.

I personally felt pretty good when my dad finally admitted to his drug usage in his past. I think it really opened up a door to communication, I don't really feel like like necessarily have to hide my drug use anymore (I must admit that I have not given him every detail though).

What you decide to do is really going to be dependent on your relationship that you have with your son. But personally, I think he would benefit from the truth and he would at least have that peace of mind that he could come to you if he had a question about something.
 
Or maybe you and your wife use E responsibly because you are generally responsible drug users. He may wrecklessly abuse E just like alcohol.

But please be fair in your comparisons, just because many people use acohol excessively does not mean it should be compared to E on any basis besides one use for one use.
 
purplefirefly said:
^^

I definitely agree.

I personally felt pretty good when my dad finally admitted to his drug usage in his past. I think it really opened up a door to communication, I don't really feel like like necessarily have to hide my drug use anymore (I must admit that I have not given him every detail though).

What you decide to do is really going to be dependent on your relationship that you have with your son. But personally, I think he would benefit from the truth and he would at least have that peace of mind that he could come to you if he had a question about something.
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THIS IS SO TRUE!!

grew up in the DARE world and all and thought drugs where bad mkay...

then through some PI work my bro found out my mom was a BIG time coke head......that pretty much destroyed our whole way of thinking bout drugs because she said she had 'never' done drugs!

If it wasn't for BL i could have started being a bad abuser!
 
np pullstring. I just feel that there's so much misinformation out there about MDMA that people are confused. Also, because it is considered a schedule 1 drug, the majority of people believe that is very dangerous, as much as heroin or coke. Luckily, people are doing more and more studies and are finding out that is not the case. I think it's very important for people to know what they're putting into their body.
 
I am personally more hung over after a good night of drinkinging than after a decent night of E (3-4 pills).


The thing with booze is that dosage can well be regulated, you can have a beer or two just enough to make you slightly more social and at eaze, and do it every weekend like a lot of young people do, where as with E you roll or dont. And rolling every weekend is sure as hell not good for you.

Both are drugs, and both can be dangerious. Booze is more FORGIVING than mdma. Yes more people get fucked over on booze in the long run, but this is because booze is more prominent in our society. You are expected to drink more than to take rolls.

Long term abuse of mdma from current stats is not lethal, but people do become mentally impared, however this may change as mdma becomes more mature; mdma abusers get older, and we get more data on the drug.
Long term abuse of alcahol can be very lethal, more so than ecstasy.

Hell, abuse food, and your clogged up arteries will bring your heavy ass down. As mentionned plenty in this thread, moderation is the key. Ecstasy requires more moderation than alcahol, before the drug starts to take toll.
 
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