• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

    Welcome Guest!

x is safe

I understand your viewpoints against mine, but by discrediting my statements as just theory and then spurting off ideas about neurotoxicity and oxidative stress, is putting you in kind of a cycle.

All of the medical and pharmacological effects you have presented, INCLUDING neurotoxicity and its effects are also still in theory.

Nothing is 100% certain about MDMA use, but newer more recent studies are finding more and more that MDMA is less harmful than it is perceived to be.

Where are you getting all of this about MDMA being a cardiotoxin?

You said we have damage from the following things.

-oxidative stress (neurotoxicity): This too is still in theory, but is widely accepted. Yes, though it may be neurotoxic, preventative measures can and will reduce that stress. So yes, in this case, damage may occur. The jury is still out as to how much or how serious the damage is. Frequent MDMA users who have been tested show minimal to no signs of lowered serotonin function.

-neurotransmitter depletion- this is only for the duration of the experience, and for a short time afterwards. There is no evidence that suggests a lack or overabundance of a certain neurotransmitter will cause cerebral damage. Emotional problems usually arise from the downregulation of receptor sites. Neurotransmitter levels are replenished quite quickly. It is the upregulation of receptors that takes time.

-neurotransmitter level imbalance: There is no evidence that this can cause any physical damage whatsoever. Pharmaceutical Drugs create unnatural neurotransmitter balances, and most have shown that with the correct dosage, they are not in any way dangerous.

-probable neuroplastic rewiring: Medical Experts take part in the successful neuroplastic rewiring of certain brain cells in stroke and Parkinson's Disease victims so that they can regain certain functions. There is no medical evidence, i believe (correct me if im wrong) that dictates that neuroplastic rewiring will cause damage, problems, or imbalances in the brain.

-cardiotoxicity: Show me medical evidence that suggests a recreational dose of MDMA is cardiotoxic, please.
 
Last edited:
Your logic is just plain wrong.
You state that the drug MDMA is causing all of these dangerous side effects, when in reality, it is not. Most of the damage caused by MDMA is the result of increased body and organ temperatures, hyperthermia, and overheating/exertion.
MDMA has not been found to be toxic to cells.
When MDMA was introduced to liver cells, they were found to not be toxic. When these same liver cells were introduced to increased temperature, significant damage occurred WITHOUT the presence of MDMA. " Part of the possibility that MDMA heart damage could occur is based on mouse research which found that mice given massive doses of MDMA while exposed to loud noise had more structurally abnormal mitochondria after the treatment than mice who were not. [7] Cardiac tissue damage itself (myocytolysis) was not seen at any dose, even in the mice who received 120 mg/kg MDMA. It seems a bit of a stretch to interpret this research as a sign of significant danger to humans. In broad terms, muscle breakdown (including the heart) can occur under severe heatstroke conditions, making heart failure a possible aspect of multiple organ failure heatstroke cases. Other researchers have found evidence of damage to rat's hearts from repeated 'binges' of MDMA (up to 9 mg/kg injected daily for four days straight.) As a rule, prolonged exposure to powerful stimulants is harmful to the cardiovascular system and should be avoided."

Take this as an example:

A raver goes to an overcrowded, hot and sweaty rave. They knock back 125MG of MDMA with a few beers, without any pre-load regime. They overexert themselves, dont drink enough water, and dont rest. Their temperature reaches over 102 degrees and they are dehydrated, though they continue to dance. After the night is over, they go home and pass out. The next day they do the same thing, dropping again. This pattern occurs over the next 10 years and significant physiological damage has occurred. The obvious reason would be from "MDMA use". <---the typical "e-tard" i know usually is the person with this kind of habit

Take another E user. They preload with 5-HTP and supplements up to a week before drop day. On the day of the drop they take regular amounts of antioxidants. They also take 125mg of MDMA, except with no alcohol, and drink ample amounts of water and stay cool in an air conditioned room. They make sure not to overexert themselves and to stay cool. After the roll, they take more antioxidants, an SSRI, and some 5-HTP. They continue this vitamin and supplement regime until they are healthy. They do not drop again for three months. This trend also occurs over the next 10 years and they see little to no negative effects from their "MDMA use".

It is not the drug that is causing damage to people's bodies (usually, as a miniscule amount of people are allergic and hypersensitive to the effects). It is the USE (including personal health, time between doses, temperature, water intake, etc...) that determines the damage to be caused.

It just so happens that the average E user is misinformed about how to be safe regarding MDMA use, and many haphazardly lead the life of the first example, and end up damaged blaming MDMA as the cause.

You stated that it's accepted in pharmacology that if you give a test subject 10 times the recreational dose for a month and see damage, then that can be extrapolated to occasional use to a lesser extent of damage. If this were the case, then vitamins would be considered dangerous drugs, since they can prove to be toxic and even fatal in high doses. Dont believe me? Read.

Here are just a few examples:

Vitamin A
Gorging on this vitamin compound in doses of more than 25,000 IUs (five times the RDA) can lead to liver damage, hair loss, blurred vision and headaches.

Vitamin B-6
Ingesting more than 400 mg a day (200 times the RDA) can cause numbness in the mouth and hands and difficulty in walking.

Vitamin C
It was once believed to cause kidney stones, but experts now say there is no solid evidence of dangerous side effects from vitamin C. High doses can produce stomachaches and diarrhea.

Vitamin D
In daily doses of 50,000 IUs (125 times the U.S. RDA), the sunshine vitamin can cause the buildup of calcium deposits that can interfere with the functioning of muscles, including heart tissue. While sunbathing will never create an overdose, taking too many supplements can.

Niacin
Doctors prescribe doses of 2,000 mg (100 times the RDA) to help lower cholesterol. But patients who take that much should be monitored for possible symptoms of jaundice and liver damage.

Iron
Those who want to bolster their red blood cell count, especially elderly people and menstruating women, have been taking iron supplements for years. Daily doses higher than 100 mg (six times the RDA) could interfere with absorption of zinc, a mineral that speeds wound healing and helps regulate the immune system.


This just comes to strengthen the message of my first post.
Moderation and safe use(staying cool, time between doses) is the key to healthy MDMA use, not stopping use of the drug.
 
Last edited:
this is to both thunder and world

u guys provide GREAT rebutals and love veing educated by what you BOTH contribute to this thread!

Keep it up guys!
 
Pullstring,

Thanks a lot. I love helping when i can.

World,

Despite you probably hating me right now, i find your rebuttals to be extremely well thought and intelligent. I was in way too much of an aggressive mood last night (lack of a lot of sleep) to have sounded like i was debating rather than arguing for the hell of it.

Please dont stop responding to this, it is way too good of a discussion to halt now.'


Anyone else's idea's are more than welcome. Please, chime in.
 
I hope not. I enjoy reading different view points on MDMA. Most of the clinical studies being done right now are pointing to MDMA not being toxic. However, cocaine was a medical miracle too when it came out. I would like to believe, like all users, that it is safer than other drugs. I check thedea.org and MAPS a lot to find new research and it's findings. I don't think we'll know the entire grasp of MDMA for years yet, but I'm hopeful nonetheless.
 
xthunderbirdscx said:
It is not the drug that is causing damage to people's bodies (usually, as a miniscule amount of people are allergic and hypersensitive to the effects). It is the USE (including personal health, time between doses, temperature, water intake, etc...) that determines the damage to be caused.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with your argument that moderation and correct use (e.g. using MDMA in cool settings and taking plenty of fluids) reduce the damage (possibly to almost nothing). I'm not convinced that you can say the drug isn't doing damage, though - after all, MDMA increases body temperature, BP etc. It's not a case of someone taking MDMA, then moving into a hot environment and suffering damage - the MDMA itself causes the higher temperature.

Plus you've got to consider the role of MDMA in releasing anti-diuretic hormone leading to the potential risk of hyponatremia.

[I realise I'm kinda splitting hairs here, but I do think that MDMA itself has a role in causing damage - but I agree that the primary determinant is HOW the drug is used.....(heh, there are ads here at the moment aimed at harm reduction for alcohol "it's not the drinking, it's how we're drinking" - maybe we need something like that for MDMA? ;))]
 
First off I want to say that until i started having problems i was THE biggest advocate of E. I have religiously tried to share this experience with all the people i know. I was totally on the whole, no proof of its damage, statistics are in my favour, when used correctly, etc. I still think it has been the singlemost liberating experience in my life and I wish it could continue to be. When this study came out, it was my #1 tool to use on the doubters and non-believers. Since then, i have been hit with a case of pure cruel irony. I, the only one to defend it like it was my own child (out of all my pilling friends), have contracted a condition i had not even heard about (and i know jsut about everything when it comes to X neuroscience and pharm): HPPD. Those of you who dont know about it, google it, search it on this forum, theres tons of info (and ive made many posts about it).

Anyway, i basically have visual dostorions, permanently. Not trippy LSD-like hallucinations (which ive never done). I have what's called visual snow/static and floaters. And this is all due to moderate clean MDMA use.

Now, how does this related to this thread? This study has now taken a different turn for me as though I am still alive, I am FUCKEd. When it considers harm, it uses death as a barometer. This is flawed since somethign can cause you great harm without killing you. Before this, i was totally defensive and blind to the concept of being afflicted negatively by sensible X usage. But now i can see that its NOT that rare to get fucked over by it. I know people are going to say, but you are 1 out of a million, its a rare thing, you can chance it. I swear to you, i WAS sayign JUST that...i was hiding behind statistics and i am still flabergasted at how I of all people got this debilitating disorder. I am otherwise in perfect health, never had ANY mental issues, no hereditary predispositions, etc.

Trust me, i still lovvvve X, the concept and what it can do for us. I obviously dont drop anymore, but would love to. Still, its an example of how X has been harmful to me (SEVERELY, trust me), without killing me (provided i dont kill myself if this is permanent). I have long been on the X team (vs. alcohol). Constatnly disparaging alcohol as a choice of drug, but now for me it seems, ive been stabbed in the back. So anyway, just to say, it can happen to you, no matter HOW safe you think you are being. You go from being 1 in a million to that 1, and theres very little you can do about it. Ironically, the only thing that alleviates these symptoms is alcohol. The harm of MDMA also exists in its ability to cause HPPD. Just a point.

Please someone prove me wrong. I want to exonerate X in my esteem.
 
You are delusional if you think x is not harmful I had a 2 hour conversation with a neuroligist that did a study on x and was floored! It causes brain damage no doubt about it and you heavy dosers are going to be benzo addicts from anxiety in 10 years.I am living proof as i lived thru the 80's and consumed 1000's of doses but live and learn.
 
but the harms of x arent as harmful as alchol is where this study is fascinating, I hope people who use X know its harmful, but right now they r thinking it not worse than liqour!

Rolling- i think what u have is something i have read that they say is a rarity w/psychs so I'm sure that u might be a rarity in the instance of trippy visual damage. There are people who have bad reactions w/alchol (maybe not seeing things) but look at how different people react drunk!

For example when Im drunk i can still walk straight (DO NOT SLAM ME BOUT DRIVING CAUSE I NEVER DRIVE AFTER 2 DRINKS REGARDLESS CAUSE I CANT LIVE W/A DUI) Me and my boy got sloshed and my brother came over (metro cop) and by this point i had 2/3 pint of jack in my system and he decided for giggles to administer the sobriety test and I passed, others stumble around crazy like, same kinda thing w/x users, i can get rock hard and some stay as limp noodles hoppin to bang their girl later!
 
rollingregret said:
First off I want to say that until i started having problems i was THE biggest advocate of E. I have religiously tried to share this experience with all the people i know. I was totally on the whole, no proof of its damage, statistics are in my favour, when used correctly, etc. I still think it has been the singlemost liberating experience in my life and I wish it could continue to be. When this study came out, it was my #1 tool to use on the doubters and non-believers. Since then, i have been hit with a case of pure cruel irony. I, the only one to defend it like it was my own child (out of all my pilling friends), have contracted a condition i had not even heard about (and i know jsut about everything when it comes to X neuroscience and pharm): HPPD. Those of you who dont know about it, google it, search it on this forum, theres tons of info (and ive made many posts about it).

Anyway, i basically have visual dostorions, permanently. Not trippy LSD-like hallucinations (which ive never done). I have what's called visual snow/static and floaters. And this is all due to moderate clean MDMA use.

Now, how does this related to this thread? This study has now taken a different turn for me as though I am still alive, I am FUCKEd. When it considers harm, it uses death as a barometer. This is flawed since somethign can cause you great harm without killing you. Before this, i was totally defensive and blind to the concept of being afflicted negatively by sensible X usage. But now i can see that its NOT that rare to get fucked over by it. I know people are going to say, but you are 1 out of a million, its a rare thing, you can chance it. I swear to you, i WAS sayign JUST that...i was hiding behind statistics and i am still flabergasted at how I of all people got this debilitating disorder. I am otherwise in perfect health, never had ANY mental issues, no hereditary predispositions, etc.

Trust me, i still lovvvve X, the concept and what it can do for us. I obviously dont drop anymore, but would love to. Still, its an example of how X has been harmful to me (SEVERELY, trust me), without killing me (provided i dont kill myself if this is permanent). I have long been on the X team (vs. alcohol). Constatnly disparaging alcohol as a choice of drug, but now for me it seems, ive been stabbed in the back. So anyway, just to say, it can happen to you, no matter HOW safe you think you are being. You go from being 1 in a million to that 1, and theres very little you can do about it. Ironically, the only thing that alleviates these symptoms is alcohol. The harm of MDMA also exists in its ability to cause HPPD. Just a point.

Please someone prove me wrong. I want to exonerate X in my esteem.
Click to expand...

May i ask, if you dont mind, your frequency of use and habits involving MDMA? Please be honest, no one will judge you.

Im interested in finding the root causes of HPPD. I know a lot of LSD users experience it from time to time (flashbacks).

Are you sure that the cause of your disorder was due to ecstasy usage? Or was it the improper use of ecstasy?

I do know that if you cease any drug usage (including alcohol, marijuana, and OTC drugs) HPPD clears itself up. In no way, to my knowledge, is the disorder permanent. HPPD clears itself up after a sober couple of months to years.
 
johnny-drama said:
You are delusional if you think x is not harmful I had a 2 hour conversation with a neuroligist that did a study on x and was floored! It causes brain damage no doubt about it and you heavy dosers are going to be benzo addicts from anxiety in 10 years.I am living proof as i lived thru the 80's and consumed 1000's of doses but live and learn.
Click to expand...


Can you please point me in the direction of this study, if not, at least give me the name of your Neurologist?
Findings that drastic would surely be published in a medical journal somewhere.

Im not doubting this information, but spurting out things like "It causes brain damage no doubt about it" should be backed by some medical studies. Statements like that without proof or support are worthless and don't hold squat in a debate/discussion IMO.
 
rollingregret said:
I have what's called visual snow/static and floaters. And this is all due to moderate clean MDMA use.
Click to expand...

I suffered frequent migraine headaches as a child, and though they are not as prominent as you make yours seem, i too have a mild case of visual snow.

"Migraine Auras" as they are called, have the same symptoms as well.
 
Neurotoxicity

First off I must point out that while no studies have conclusively proven with 100 percent certainty that MDMA is neurotoxic at recreational levels in humans the evidence is steadily mounting. Add this to the fact that you can NEVER disprove the possibility of neurotoxicity and we are looking at a theory that is going to be accepted, just a matter of time. The fact that MDMA releases large amounts of Dopamine is enough proof for any educated person to realize that at least some damage is occurring. Significant dopamine efflux always results in oxidative stress. You can counter this argument with claims that certain supplements will protect you, but the research is even sketchier on supplements than MDMA itself. Not to mention that even if supplements can protect you, MDMA is still neurotoxic in the first place. So my argument is only cyclical because I have to repeat it to you after reading poor rebuttals that do not refute my original and correct point.

CardioToxicity

"The results obtained in this study provide evidence that the metabolism of MDMA into N-Me-alpha-MeDA and alpha-MeDA is required for the expression of MDMA-induced cardiotoxicity in vitro, being N-Me-alpha-MeDA the most toxic of the studied metabolites. "

http://www.mdma.net/cardiovascular/toxic-metab.html

"The hearts of treated rats contained foci of inflammatory infiltrates (lymphocytes and macrophages), some of which contained necrotic cells and/or disrupted cytoarchitecture. MDMA produced cardiac arrhythmias in some rats. These results indicate that the binge administration of MDMA can significantly alter cardiovascular and cardiovascular reflex function and produce cardiac toxicity. "

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/302/3/898


That is something to start with, so my claims are obviously not unfounded. Not to mention that both amphetamine and methamphetamine are clearly cardiotoxic, MDMA / MDA (its metabolite) are quite likely to follow the same pattern.

Neurotransmitter Depletion

I never claimed that depletion caused physical damage, please stop misquoting me and taking my argument out of context. Lowered levels or neurotransmitters is a problem for obvious reasons.

Neuroplastic Rewiring

Actually there is alot to suggest that neuroplasticity causes impaired functionality. The leading theory of HPPD's cause is neuroplastic rewiring. Do you research. At the rewiring you are comparing is vastly different, one is a repair process guided by doctors, the other is a degenerative process elicited by MDMA and other hallucinogens.


No one really cares about your example of a responsible user because MDMA is still dangerous in an ideal environment, just less so than the dumbass kandi kid in a 110 degree room.

Your comparing vitamins to psychedelic amphetamines is absurd, everyone can see that and I really do not need to comment further.

As much as I would like to continue to make people aware of risks, I consider the discussion concluded. You clearly do not understand the pharmacology of this substance which is demonstrated by you numerous invalid comparisons. I am basically just wasting my time while you dance around the issue that I conclusively answered several posts ago. No hard feelings or personal attacks intended, but you are being incredibly irresponsible by portraying this substance as harmless just because the jury is still out. We still have no idea what the full mechanism of alcohols action is, and that has been in common use for thousands of years. However no one is disputing the damage it causes. MDMA should be viewed the same way.
 
xthunderbirdscx said:
May i ask, if you dont mind, your frequency of use and habits involving MDMA? Please be honest, no one will judge you.

Im interested in finding the root causes of HPPD. I know a lot of LSD users experience it from time to time (flashbacks).

Are you sure that the cause of your disorder was due to ecstasy usage? Or was it the improper use of ecstasy?

I do know that if you cease any drug usage (including alcohol, marijuana, and OTC drugs) HPPD clears itself up. In no way, to my knowledge, is the disorder permanent. HPPD clears itself up after a sober couple of months to years.
Click to expand...


Sure, don't mind at all.

First roll, Feb 24th 2005. From then until now, on average once a month (seems like a lot to me now when i look back). There was a period of a three month break from the 6th time to the 7th. In terms of quantity, average = 2 pills of average strength. I would always judge my state so if i was plainly messed in a good way, i would refrain for any more pills. I have always been "responsible", knowing my body, how its reacting (at least within the capacity for us to tell, obviously "damage" can go unoticed), but i did practice all forms of harm reduction. The event at which/from which i contracted my symptoms, I took the most id ever had: 4. This increase i suppose is what pushed me over the edge. It was over 12 hours and at no point did I feel out of control, it was a normal, compeltely lucid high. No bad comedown. Over the course of my popping, i have had periods of average marijuana intake, but for the most part, since i have been working, i have refrained from smoking and just looked forward to the monthly events. Within the 3 months before this event (hppd-causing) i didnt smoke at all, completely clean. I have never done any other drugs, aside from alcohol of course. I have always taken htps and vitamins, tyrosince, glutamine, you name it..i was the king of harm reduction, althoguht now it appears a once a month average for a year and a half, even with a break, was a bit much. I have been extremely healthy/fit, although since hppd, that has taken a massive dive.

As for the clearing up, im in month 4. I dropped on nye because i was feeling "better" and at that point, i had NO clue abotu hppd, i had convinced myself that it was due to another problem (atlas misalignment). So i actually first developped it Oct 06. went 3 months of not knowing, dropped nye and here i am 6 months after the original date. Giving up alcohol is extremely tough. not cuz i like alcohol or anything. I would always argue AGAINST it in the face of X. But after hppd, as im sure youve heard, it does alleviate the symptoms. Most people say it goes away, and since my case is relatively mild, yet not by any means unoticeable (it has become the focus of my life), perhaps it will fade soon. I think one huge issue for me is that ive basically been given the sentence of not being able to partake in drugs WHATSOEVER. This is a huge blow, espescially when you cant smoke a frigging joint! Ironically that last time was gonna be one of my last or at least until a massive break. I still think if i was the average X user, i could get away cleanly with popping a decent number more times, spaced out by at least 4-5 months for the rest of my life. Its really an awakening because now i wonder...do i have a drug problem? It's not that im addicted per say, but i do beleive in MDMA and what it provides and that it has been shown to be a viable option when undertaken "safely". I wasnt ready to give it up and now i HAVE to. Maybe i dont have hppd in its literal clinical permanent form, but i know now what debilitating vs and floaters is, i am scarred for life.

As for whether this was due to E, it was. It started right after that time in Oct and got a lot worse after new years. Ive tried to deny that its due to that, but the evidence is overwhelming. Its long been debated that there are residual visual after effects induced by E which is NOT hppd. Therefore, after taking a break, they will subside and you can resume popping. I would love to hear more evidence of this, but i dont seem to find enough examples of this or to discredit the validity of my hppd. Hard to handle. Almost like your hero, turning around and stabbing you in the back and then everyone slandering him and you eventually realising he isnt as great as you thought he was. Again, want to be proven wrong.
 
xthunderbirdscx said:
I suffered frequent migraine headaches as a child, and though they are not as prominent as you make yours seem, i too have a mild case of visual snow.

"Migraine Auras" as they are called, have the same symptoms as well.
Click to expand...


yes, im aware of the congruence of my symptoms to ocular migraine. It's like HPPD induces whats called persistent migraine aura without infarction (without the actual headache).

I never had any of these issues before and they are 24/7 now. When it comes to visual snow, it seems people experience it to varrying degrees, beyond a threshold it becomes debilitating. Even knowing about it can cause you to notice it more. I had it before i knew about it so mine isnt psychosomatic. There are people who get vs who have never done any drugs and of course those for whom its a symptoms of hppd. Perhaps the same etiology. I wonder, in my case, whether its a common residual effect that might subside after time and perhaps even allow me to roll again (obviously extremeley conservatively). Not that im expecting this, but it has been the case for a bunch of people, i.e. recovering from vs and popping again without repercussions.
 
pullstring said:
Rolling- i think what u have is something i have read that they say is a rarity w/psychs so I'm sure that u might be a rarity in the instance of trippy visual damage. There are people who have bad reactions w/alchol (maybe not seeing things) but look at how different people react drunk!
Click to expand...

Sorry, one last one. Pullstring, from what i gather, 100%, you are right, i seem to be an anomaly as far as the statistics we have. The fact that I am this anomaly blows my mind. I went from never having an uncomfortable trip, all amazing, for a year and a half to all of a sudden, without a bad trip, developping visual symptoms. None of my friends have the slightest clue what im expriencing and most have dosed far beyond my levels. I guess what im saying is that one day you end up being THAT statistic that was sooooo far fetched that you could consider it impossible. I have basically been struck by lightening and it defies me to comprehend how unlikely this could be. Perhaps its NOT as rare as we think? Boy would i rather be browsing for "better rolling tips!". enjoy your rolls people, they are a precious gift.
 
umm i have visual snow very strongly and i hate to say its not debilitating, flaming removed by MazDan So the world glows and floats for me and objects shimmer, im not objecting. In fact i feel blessed and have used it to be able to see energy far more effictivaly. Just come to terms with it, make peace and live your life, everything happens for a reason. Also i much prefer night to day now, i seem to be able to see well with very little light.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Amphetamine Ninja, I am happy you have come to terms with your issue but that was totally uncalled for. You have no conception of rollingregrets lifestyle and how HPPD might affect it. Personally I would have a very hard time dealing with life had I contracted severe HPPD. By brushing it aside you are doing everyone a great disservice and underplaying its occurance which will only lead to the medical community neglecting to investigate what the see as a "fried druggie problem".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top