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x is safe

As much as I would love to get into this arguement in depth it is somewhat pointless to do so in the ecstasy discussion forums of bluelight (a generally anti alcohol crowd). I will put it this way, alcohol is by no means harmless but if you are seriously trying to convince me that a substance that depletes your possibly most important neurotransmitter is less harmfull then you took a dose too many.

First off, they both cause brain damage but look at how much faster MDMA creates cognative impairment. Anyone who has been in the rave scene knows the kids who drop every weekend are beyond fucked. Even monthly use results in most people eventually suffering depression if they do not stop after a few months. Alcohol also causes depression but you must abuse it at an insane frequency for that (my opinion 4+ days per week). No question that alcohol causes more acute toxic effects for most users. However acute effects should not be the only determining factor.

Also keep in mind that reasonable amounts of alcohol RESULTS IN NO COGNATIVE IMPAIRMENT WHATSOEVER, and many studies suggest that reasonable doses of alcohol do not damage the brain or liver. A resonable dosage of MDMA (120 - 160 mgs) more often than 4 or 5 times a year definitely results in impairment. There is no denying the negative effects, even of responsible use. Most people are no less functional on sunday morning after 5 beers, try doing something productive after 160mgs of MDMA.

As for the graph posted above it is laughable. Please consider how many MILLIONS more poeple use alcohol on any given day than use MDMA. What do you think the fatality risk would be for MDMA if an equal number of young people droped every single friday and saturday evening?

I agree that alcohol is very dangerous because of the degree to which people abuse it but to claim that MDMA is less harmful than responsible alcohol use is just outrageous. I can go on and on but I will stop the argument here because I am obviously preaching to the wrong crowd. I am just urging everyone to not assume MDMA is safe because of one study, it is far from safe. A very profound drug for many of us, but it comes at a hefty cost.
 
PS If it were up to me we would all be drinking liquid morphine on the weekend, its better than E and brews lol
 
theWorldWithin said:
As for the graph posted above it is laughable. Please consider how many MILLIONS more poeple use alcohol on any given day than use MDMA. What do you think the fatality risk would be for MDMA if an equal number of young people droped every single friday and saturday evening?

I agree that alcohol is very dangerous because of the degree to which people abuse it but to claim that MDMA is less harmful than responsible alcohol use is just outrageous. I can go on and on but I will stop the argument here because I am obviously preaching to the wrong crowd. I am just urging everyone to not assume MDMA is safe because of one study, it is far from safe. A very profound drug for many of us, but it comes at a hefty cost.
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World within, I agree with pretty much everything that you have said. Just a few points however.

1. The graph you refer to is a fair comparison as it shows number of deaths per 100,000 users.........hence the overall number of users of either is irrelevant.

2. I dont think anyone can truly claim mdma is safer or alcohol is safer until much more study is done. And that may be hundreds of years down the track.
 
As for the graph posted above it is laughable. Please consider how many MILLIONS more poeple use alcohol on any given day than use MDMA. What do you think the fatality risk would be for MDMA if an equal number of young people droped every single friday and saturday evening?
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Please look at the graph again. It's PER 100,000 USERS.

Let me put it simpler.
if you took 100,000 people that take ecstasy, and 100,000 that drink. 2 of the ecstasy users would die whereas 50 of the alcohol users would die.

The fact that less people use ecstasy is irrelevant.

...jesus

Most people are no less functional on sunday morning after 5 beers, try doing something productive after 160mgs of MDMA.
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Comparing 160mg MDMA to 5beers is also pretty stupid. 5 beers wouldn't even get me tipsy. I would compare 1pill (100mg MDMA) to a 1/4 bottle of whiskey. I would not get a comedown from 1 pill and would probably get a nice afterglow and function pretty well, however I would get a hangover from a 1/4 bottle of whiskey and would probably be useless for the entire day
 
Anyone who has been in the rave scene knows the kids who drop every weekend are beyond fucked.

You need to prove cause and effect. Otherwise ithis is as weak as saying "We all know a guy who thinks he's a glass of orange juice because he took LSD". In reality we don't - it's just an urban myth we've heard from a bloke down the pub.

What does "beyond fucked" actually mean anyway? Are these people taking any other drugs? What was their mental health like in the first place? etc etc

A resonable dosage of MDMA (120 - 160 mgs) more often than 4 or 5 times a year definitely results in impairment.

Nonsense.
 
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Look people, E is a dangerous drug whether you like it or not.

Alcohol may kill more people, but E is still pretty dangerous, if you drink enough beer to get you pretty pissed and look after yourself, (drinking water before sleep etc) the next day your only gonna be slightly impaired.

If you drop enough E to get you nicely buzzed, and look after yourself. The next day your gonna be pretty impaired, even i'm impaired the next day and I barely get a comedown.

And this is coming from probably the biggest pillhead on this forum.
 
did you actually read anything on that website? http://www.thedea.org. it was very informative. check out MAPS too while you're at it. There isn't enough information about MDMA out there. However, I don't believe it's dangerous at all. If it's taken to a point of excess than it can have adverse side affects. However, from what little research is out there, it's not permanent. This could be completely wrong considering that MDMA is being studied more and more. It very well could come out as being a dangerous narcotic. Cocaine was thought of as a miracle aid until 20 years down the road, people started to have serious issues. There needs to be more research done and I look forward to seeing the progress of society's mindset about this drug.
 
Newbierock said:
Look people, E is a dangerous drug whether you like it or not.

Alcohol may kill more people, but E is still pretty dangerous, if you drink enough beer to get you pretty pissed and look after yourself, (drinking water before sleep etc) the next day your only gonna be slightly impaired.

If you drop enough E to get you nicely buzzed, and look after yourself. The next day your gonna be pretty impaired, even i'm impaired the next day and I barely get a comedown.

And this is coming from probably the biggest pillhead on this forum.
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No one was arguing that it wasn't dangerous.

Feeling shit the next day has no correlation to the damage it causes.

The main reason E is "dangerous" is because it's neurotoxic when it's abused. But when used in moderation (6-8weeks) I don't find it neurotoxic it all.
 
So your telling me something that pretty much ko's you the next day isn't damaging you?

Theres a reason you have a comedown.
 
Newbierock said:
So your telling me something that pretty much ko's you the next day isn't damaging you?

Theres a reason you have a comedown.
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Yeah, of course there's a reason. - Dehydration, Sleep deprivation, Exhaustion, Jaw Clenching for 12hrs+
 
Drink a bottle of whisky straight off and there's a good chance you will end up dead. Assuming that the consumption of 6 glasses would be enough to get you only moderately drunk and that in most bars in the UK they reckon on getting 31 small glasses (one glass (= a tot) = 1/6 of a gill) out of a bottle, this means that you only need 5 times the amount to get you high to get you into serious trouble.
Translated to E this would mean that 10 pills would be enough for you to be at death's door.
But what we in fact see is that E causes very few deaths even with massive overdosing. What we also see is that not many people actually do overdose to such an extent.
In fact E is not a good suicide drug. My ex swallowed over 40 good E tablets as well as an unknown amount of crystal, but woke up a few days later more or less unscathed.
And by the way more than 12 paracetamols in a 24 hour period is enough to cause irreversible kidney damage.
 
AuraithX said:
Please look at the graph again. It's PER 100,000 USERS.

Let me put it simpler.
if you took 100,000 people that take ecstasy, and 100,000 that drink. 2 of the ecstasy users would die whereas 50 of the alcohol users would die.

The fact that less people use ecstasy is irrelevant.

...jesus


Comparing 160mg MDMA to 5beers is also pretty stupid. 5 beers wouldn't even get me tipsy. I would compare 1pill (100mg MDMA) to a 1/4 bottle of whiskey. I would not get a comedown from 1 pill and would probably get a nice afterglow and function pretty well, however I would get a hangover from a 1/4 bottle of whiskey and would probably be useless for the entire day
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Actually it is quite relevant. If Joe Schmoe uses MDMA 5 to 8 times a year (which I think is realistic for most people who are not on the extreme end of the spectrum) then he is actively considered an Ecstasy user in 2007 acording to that poll. Now do you realistically think that Billy schmoe who drinks is only consuming alcohol 5 to 8 times a year? Or whatever number you would like to give as the mean average of use for MDMA users is definitely much lower than for that of alcohol users. So for every user of MDMA there are far less occurances of self administration than for every alcohol user (side note: if you drink only on every friday and saturday that totals 96 uses per year). No wonder there are significantly higher fatality number. Not to mention my intention was never to argue over acute toxicity, I made it clear that alcohol has more acute toxic effects.

Now your alcohol math is quite poor. A fifth of whiskey contains 25 ounces of liquor. 1/4 a bottle equals 6.25 ounces of whiskey. A shot is one ounce. So you are essentially comparing 6.25 servings of liquor to 5 servings of beer. You really expect me to believe that 6.25 servings of alcohol causes a worse hangover than a dose of MDMA, please be realistic.

I really hate to get into this discussion in this forum because its me and newbierock against dozens.
 
if people used e as frequently as they smoked or drank, I think e would be more harmful.
 
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