What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[epic11]

@Hilopsilo Man, two great posts. I think I felt a little shiver just reading over the first one. You so adeptly described the nuances of a good experience. You commented that, "My girlfriend always mentions how good her hair feels brushing on her shoulders when its the magic stuff." Me too. On good stuff, I am constantly running my fingers around in my hair. You also said, "the way music sounds changes" and I 100% agree. On the right product, I will hear things in music I never heard before (no matter how familiar I am with the song).

@G_Chem The product I had access too in 2000-2005 matches your description of the 90s product. It was definitely more stimulating with a super rocky Tuesday afterwards.

@epic11 So, does this mean if I went to the right festival I could bring all my samples in and get them tested, and actually chat with the people running the tests about the results? That is pretty exciting news that they have a mass spectrometer at a festival.

yea i was gonna with @Hilopsilo here and suggest that its really not gonna be the time or place to have an in depth discussion about it. Its a fast paced moving party, and i imagine there would be lines as hilo said. See that? When people arent afraid of the repurcussions, LINES FORM to test drugs. Thats huge in harm reduction, and makes me smile.

 

[G_Chem]

So I found something interesting after reviewing some notes I made.. IDK if any of you remember but at one point I was going to reagent test 20 or so batches of MDMA/MDA to see if I could see any patterns. I stopped about halfway through because I felt my reagents (particularly my marquis) were too old.

I stumbled upon the notes again and now having tried a batch of what I believed to be MehDMA I noticed something off.

All the other batches of MDMA I tested (which IMO were high quality batches completely in line with what I’d expect) reacted differently on Mandelin than this potential MehDMA batch.

All the other high quality batches, according to my notes, exhibit a green coloration before going dark. The MehDMA batch went dark blue/black, and apparently didn’t show any green. Interesting cuz this also the only ecstasy pill I’ve tried since like 2012 or so, all other batches are crystal.

I suggest people go and buy a Mandelin reagent. This could be another, better, clue in determining between good and bad batches.

-GC

 

[Deleted member 521610]

pmk was used in mid 2000's aswell then it got banned and it changed to pmk glyicdate in 2010 but now the UN also banned it so the dutch chemists have found newer routes that are unknown by authorities. More and more are resorting to bmk i wonder if this is impacting the market having much more steps in the synthesis means more things can go wrong and the resulting product will be a mix of unknown shit. MehDMA sounds like the methylone i use to do during the legal days of it. In some mass scale productions they are making bk-mdma (methylone) first then converting to mdma.

A massive bust just happened in australia with 700 kg of mdma the purest the police they said they have ever seen. The pills i had been rolling on since 2017 were total magic love mdma that came from australia saldy it looks like the market in NZ will collapse and will be stuck with using all forms of crystal.

I have a small amount of mdma/mda mix left over still but the comedowns are much to harsh though i should follow the 3 month rule but i never have and don't see myself anytime soon til i completely quit using mdma.

 

[indigoaura]

@G_Chem I will order a Mandelin kit and comment on what I see in all my samples.

 

[psy997]

I suggest people go and buy a Mandelin reagent. This could be another, better, clue in determining between good and bad batches.

Niiiiice.

MehDMA sounds like the methylone i use to do during the legal days of it

Methylone is so much better than MehDMA. The comparisons aren't really accurate IMO.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Niiiiice.



Methylone is so much better than MehDMA. The comparisons aren't really accurate IMO.

Whaaaaaaat, c'mon, I agree that methylone isn't a good comparison, but do you really feel that MehDMA is worse than Methylone? To me there is hardly any comparison at all and you'd know the second you took methylone that what you had is not MDMA even if you're a complete noob to such drugs. MehDMA is similar enough that, well, if it was such an obvious difference to everyone there'd be a lot more noise around this. The similarities between the crappy MDMA and the magic stuff are quite close, but the point is

On a couple of occasions I've had the displeasure of being sold and thereafter consumed "molly" that was some random cathinone, like methylone. It's obvious right away that its not MDMA, cause it isn't.

This is some stoned ass analogy but; say you've purchased a car (MDMA) online and its being delivered to your home, or what you think is supposed to be a specific car that you've been told it is. The magic mdma would be receiving the car, the engine runs fine, everything about it handles just right, full tank of gas, mint-condition, everything you imagined it to be; exact model you purchased. Really no questions asked.

The MehDMA would be getting the car, everything looks fine, its definitely what you ordered and the experts tell you it is, but driving it now something seems off. It's not a bad car, but you're not sure if its a problem with the engine or maybe the breaks, and you swear that the paint job is poorly done, you probably wouldn't buy this car again considering your initial expectations. You think its quite possible that they sold you a different/slightly cheaper model or maybe its a defect.

And then, Methylone would be like receiving that car and realizing its actually 5$ cardboard cutout of the model you purchased, you're angry and are about to get on the phone with the car dealership...

I think the whole point of this discussion was that the MehDMA is similar enough to MDMA that you're sort of scratching your chin a bit, its uncannily similar but most definitely something is off about it. If someone had given me methylone, and after not having the experience I expected, told me that it must just be that I've lost the magic, I'd laugh. But with MehDMA, its a plausible theory on paper IMO, MehDMA sure feels like what I imagine losing the magic feels like (a lot of the same effects without the magical aspect of it), and that would be what I'd still believe today if it wasn't for the batch dependent effects I'm seeing. (unless we as humans are so complex that we go in and out of being able to experience the magic of MDMA based on XYZ factors that we haven't even considered).

 

[Hilopsilo]

"Feel like maybe I should go over the chemistry behind the brown vs greyish/purple vs clear debate. Brown stuff tends to have leftover safrole, or partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy. In very basic terms, someone cooked it too hard in the early stages of synthesis from safrole, or alternatively did everything fine but neglected to do a wash before proceeding with the final steps.

Greyish color is usually from leftover MDP2P, and this is a big reason why you tend to see a lot of grey stuff leaving the Netherlands/Germany. They've been known to use pure MDP2P for synthesis rather than go from safrole. I'm pretty sure MDP2P is inactive when ingested, but it's not going to hurt you either.

In the end you can't use color to judge purity at all. Anyone who has done some organic chemistry knows that a .5% impurity can make the color wildly different. That's because relative to the wavelength of light our eyes detect even 1/1000000 of the molecules messing up the crystal structure can really bend or absorb light. Making it appear colored or cloudy.

Personally every time I've had clear stuff it makes me trip out and not be able to dance very well, still amazing but more for like a chill house party than a rave. When I've had browner/tan stuff it gets me up and dancing! Though placebo effect can be a powerful thing.

That stuff about safrole being carcinogenic is complete bullshit. People still use it for rootbeer flavoring at home, or for smaller shops that make their own. The test claiming it caused cancer force-fed rats the equivalent of a human eating like a bathtub of the stuff a week. Even if someone gave you 300 mg of "MDMA" that was actually just crystalized safrole you wouldn't be in any danger. The FDA banned safrole in the late '60s because the hippies over at Berkely were making MDA and having too much fun."

"Hyroxyamphetamine and methoxy-amphetamine impurities. The first steps of the reaction which is an oxidation of the double bond on safrole or isosafrole to MDP2P, has the potential to split open the oxygen ring system on the benzene group. So instead of selectively making MDMA you make a soup of methoxy and hydroxyamphetamines. The percentage is down to how aggressive and impatient the chemist is, though it's probably never much more than a few percent and even that would take some real work.

Or it could be completely placebo effect. I really wish it was easy to get a GC/MS or NMR spectra on samples in the US so we could all know for sure. But even sending it to EcstasyData for analysis they only look for presence/absence of MDMA and don't go investigating if they see a little peak amounting to 5% right around the main compound."



Interesting post from reddit. I don't know enough about this stuff to tell if they're full of shit or not. The Meh brown stuff that I tested had MDP2P in it, so that doesn't gel. I'm interested in these "partially split open methylenedioxy ring systems" and "methoxy-amphetamine", how could you test for this? surely if these are such obvious impurities, you'd see them on testing databases, no?

BTW, clicking that reddit link, the photo is EXACTLY what the magic stuff I had last year looked like and what it looked like this year, basically quartz. and no smell.

 

[Phobos]

"Feel like maybe I should go over the chemistry behind the brown vs greyish/purple vs clear debate. Brown stuff tends to have leftover safrole, or partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy. In very basic terms, someone cooked it too hard in the early stages of synthesis from safrole, or alternatively did everything fine but neglected to do a wash before proceeding with the final steps.

Greyish color is usually from leftover MDP2P, and this is a big reason why you tend to see a lot of grey stuff leaving the Netherlands/Germany. They've been known to use pure MDP2P for synthesis rather than go from safrole. I'm pretty sure MDP2P is inactive when ingested, but it's not going to hurt you either.

In the end you can't use color to judge purity at all. Anyone who has done some organic chemistry knows that a .5% impurity can make the color wildly different. That's because relative to the wavelength of light our eyes detect even 1/1000000 of the molecules messing up the crystal structure can really bend or absorb light. Making it appear colored or cloudy.

Personally every time I've had clear stuff it makes me trip out and not be able to dance very well, still amazing but more for like a chill house party than a rave. When I've had browner/tan stuff it gets me up and dancing! Though placebo effect can be a powerful thing.

That stuff about safrole being carcinogenic is complete bullshit. People still use it for rootbeer flavoring at home, or for smaller shops that make their own. The test claiming it caused cancer force-fed rats the equivalent of a human eating like a bathtub of the stuff a week. Even if someone gave you 300 mg of "MDMA" that was actually just crystalized safrole you wouldn't be in any danger. The FDA banned safrole in the late '60s because the hippies over at Berkely were making MDA and having too much fun."

"Hyroxyamphetamine and methoxy-amphetamine impurities. The first steps of the reaction which is an oxidation of the double bond on safrole or isosafrole to MDP2P, has the potential to split open the oxygen ring system on the benzene group. So instead of selectively making MDMA you make a soup of methoxy and hydroxyamphetamines. The percentage is down to how aggressive and impatient the chemist is, though it's probably never much more than a few percent and even that would take some real work.

Or it could be completely placebo effect. I really wish it was easy to get a GC/MS or NMR spectra on samples in the US so we could all know for sure. But even sending it to EcstasyData for analysis they only look for presence/absence of MDMA and don't go investigating if they see a little peak amounting to 5% right around the main compound."



Interesting post from reddit. I don't know enough about this stuff to tell if they're full of shit or not. The Meh brown stuff that I tested had MDP2P in it, so that doesn't gel. I'm interested in these "partially split open methylenedioxy ring systems" and "methoxy-amphetamine", how could you test for this? surely if these are such obvious impurities, you'd see them on testing databases, no?

BTW, clicking that reddit link, the photo is EXACTLY what the magic stuff I had last year looked like and what it looked like this year, basically quartz. and no smell.

You mention that some practices can lead to the presence of hydroxy and methoxy amphetamines, could that that include 4-HMA (correct me if I am wrong), a drug used in the form of eyedrops to produce mydriasis?
Or would it be more like 3-methoxy, 4-Hydroxy-Methamphetamine that is formed?
Would the quantities produced be active enough to change the nature of the effects?
Would GC-MS detect these impurities?

 

[heatlessbbq]

Are You all chemistry majors?

 

[Kaden_Nite]

Correlating certain colours with specific impurities, or certain synthesis routes with a specific profile of effects is meaningless. Same with drawing a line between certain eras and supposed synthesis routes.

There are way too many variables.

 

[AutoTripper]

I have a small amount of mdma/mda mix left over still but the comedowns are much to harsh though i should follow the 3 month rule but i never have and don't see myself anytime soon til i completely quit using mdma

Interesting to hear you say this. I was curious, and what you say does actually closely match the impression I have picked up and formed in my subconscious regarding your usage regularity and general attitude towards it.

I did suspect that you used MDMA fairly frequently without putting too much pressure on yourself to abide strictly by the rules and without beating yourself up too much about it either.

Very "accepting" crucially, and there is great mental and emotional strength to come from this resolute, kind of positive, non-fretting, non-ruminating outlook.

Just taking things as they come without building anything negative or fearful in the imagination.
I make these comments with regard to people's hugely different experiences with MDMA use consequences and general effects specifically LTC.

I have been particularly interested in the people out there, like yourself, who have been fairly long-term users of MDMA and who continue to do so more regularly than most would advise, but in a seemingly comfortable and balanced manner.

As in, not reporting or considering oneself to be suffering terrible side effects and messed up. And appearing to be living life and coping relatively well mentally and personality wise. I have come across quite a few cases of people who fit this bill and certainly a good number of them appear to have remained fairly happy and stable into almost Middle Ages while continuing to use MDMA much more regularly than common advice guidelines would dictate.

There is a phenomenon involved here regarding how some people do seem to be able to use this drug against the rules without or with only a fraction of the negative consequences compared to others.

I do suspect there is a strong spiritual aspect to this.

 

[epic11]

Niiiiice.



Methylone is so much better than MehDMA. The comparisons aren't really accurate IMO.

^this is 100% incorrect and complete bs. Even mehdma is better than methylone.

Whaaaaaaat, c'mon, I agree that methylone isn't a good comparison, but do you really feel that MehDMA is worse than Methylone? To me there is hardly any comparison at all and you'd know the second you took methylone that what you had is not MDMA even if you're a complete noob to such drugs. MehDMA is similar enough that, well, if it was such an obvious difference to everyone there'd be a lot more noise around this. The similarities between the crappy MDMA and the magic stuff are quite close, but the point is

On a couple of occasions I've had the displeasure of being sold and thereafter consumed "molly" that was some random cathinone, like methylone. It's obvious right away that its not MDMA, cause it isn't.

This is some stoned ass analogy but; say you've purchased a car (MDMA) online and its being delivered to your home, or what you think is supposed to be a specific car that you've been told it is. The magic mdma would be receiving the car, the engine runs fine, everything about it handles just right, full tank of gas, mint-condition, everything you imagined it to be; exact model you purchased. Really no questions asked.

The MehDMA would be getting the car, everything looks fine, its definitely what you ordered and the experts tell you it is, but driving it now something seems off. It's not a bad car, but you're not sure if its a problem with the engine or maybe the breaks, and you swear that the paint job is poorly done, you probably wouldn't buy this car again considering your initial expectations. You think its quite possible that they sold you a different/slightly cheaper model or maybe its a defect.

And then, Methylone would be like receiving that car and realizing its actually 5$ cardboard cutout of the model you purchased, you're angry and are about to get on the phone with the car dealership...

I think the whole point of this discussion was that the MehDMA is similar enough to MDMA that you're sort of scratching your chin a bit, its uncannily similar but most definitely something is off about it. If someone had given me methylone, and after not having the experience I expected, told me that it must just be that I've lost the magic, I'd laugh. But with MehDMA, its a plausible theory on paper IMO, MehDMA sure feels like what I imagine losing the magic feels like (a lot of the same effects without the magical aspect of it), and that would be what I'd still believe today if it wasn't for the batch dependent effects I'm seeing. (unless we as humans are so complex that we go in and out of being able to experience the magic of MDMA based on XYZ factors that we haven't even considered).

@Hilopsilo explains methylone perfectly here. No comparison to mehdma, even though mehdma sucks too.

 

[psy997]

Hey guys, after reading your replies I thought back to my days with Methylone and realized the time I was thinking about I'd actually mixed it with MDMA. You guys actually think it's that much worse than MehDMA? My experiences with it, given with good MDMA, had me believe it was a very beautiful substance.

 

[G_Chem]

Methylone, like MDMA, can vary batch to batch. My first time I tried it I bought a g online which came as a brown powder. It’s effects were nothing like MDMA and horribly disappointing.

Second time was with a g my buddy gave me.. This time I actually enjoyed it a lot more. It felt to me like MDMA lite, overall not the same intensity but not bad either.

The second batch felt like it was the perfect substitute for those times you want to roll for some low key event but don’t want to blast yourself. Great for Thurs club night type situations where it’s too low key to waste MDMA and you want to actually be able to get up and go to work in the morning. Not as high but not as low, no impulsive redosing like described online, I wouldn’t mind having a few more grams if ever the chance.

-GC

 

[Hilopsilo]

Are You all chemistry majors?

No, I wish

Correlating certain colours with specific impurities, or certain synthesis routes with a specific profile of effects is meaningless. Same with drawing a line between certain eras and supposed synthesis routes.

There are way too many variables.

Certainly, its just that on the entire internet there is so little information at all on this subject, so anything is interesting to me really. And in a way I think that reflects how little we know about these substances. You've gotta fucking dig if you wanna find any information. Theres not even that many studies since MDMA is so illegal. We don't even fully know how MDMA works on the brains, how could we possibly 100% say for sure that MDMA = MDMA mg for mg, no matter what, so long as the % purity is the same. I don't think its terribly far-fetched to entertain the idea that its possible that impurities leftover from synthesis or whatever could have an impact on the high, and people who do have background in chemistry that I've talked to about this don't seem to think its too farfetched either. Might be a bad comparison, but look at all this stuff coming out about terpenes in weed and the entourage effect, what if there is something like that for MDMA?

the writer of this guy guide seems to think that removing even small impurities improve the effects qualitatively. Again, with my samples, the 6% difference in purity is certainly not enough to cause the differences in subjective effects, especially when increasing the dose doesn't fix the problem. I feel its very possible there is some traces of crap, the "noise" on a mass spectra, that messes with the action of MDMA.

Hey guys, after reading your replies I thought back to my days with Methylone and realized the time I was thinking about I'd actually mixed it with MDMA. You guys actually think it's that much worse than MehDMA? My experiences with it, given with good MDMA, had me believe it was a very beautiful substance.

Eh, I think methylones got a pretty bad rep overall. it is all opinion, but from my very few experiences with methylone/butylone (are they similar? idk), usually in the case of a long time ago where I was sold methylone as MDMA, all I remember is how crap it was, like utter garbage. It's like this fakey MDMA comeup that just turns into this weird coked out/stim buzz. If you mix it with MDMA idk though lol

 

[Kaden_Nite]

Methylone from decent RC vendors, between 2007 until around 2011, I had good experiences with. As GC said, like an MDMA-lite. Good for weeknights and venues where MDMA might be a bit much.

Ethylone I was disappointed with because I found it nothing like the euphorically relaxing MDEA (which I really enjoyed).

Butylone was sold here as a branded product in headshops called 'Eden' which I originally thought was MBDB before finding out it was the ketone version. It was okay for what it was.

Pentylone I didn't try, but it was fairly common for it to be sold as 'molly' for a while - I think this may have contributed to methylone getting a bad rep.

Certainly, its just that on the entire internet there is so little information at all on this subject, so anything is interesting to me really. And in a way I think that reflects how little we know about these substances. You've gotta fucking dig if you wanna find any information. Theres not even that many studies since MDMA is so illegal. We don't even fully know how MDMA works on the brains, how could we possibly 100% say for sure that MDMA = MDMA mg for mg, no matter what, so long as the % purity is the same. I don't think its terribly far-fetched to entertain the idea that its possible that impurities leftover from synthesis or whatever could have an impact on the high

Agreed. I just think it varies so much from batch to batch (variations in precursors, the purity of those precursors, the procedure itself, the clean-up, etc etc) that it's impossible to say method #1 leads to MDMA type A, method #2 leads to MDMA type B etc.

I remember some old Rhodium & Hive posts drawing lines between colours of meth and certain impurities and synth routes, but they were disproven as virtually any synth can produce brown or or tan or amber or rainbow gear.

There was some apparently very high purity MDMA seized in Australia recently that looked yellow. Not the nicest looking stuff actually.

I do believe in that 'entourage' effect as I find coca and poppies considerably different than pure cocaine or morphine, and cannabis different to concentrates.

With MDMA, I think reports varied a lot in the 90s, they varied a lot in the early 00s and they vary a lot now. Search high and low for a good batch if you have to, buy a shit load of it and you're set

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Hey @G_Chem , I did some more kit testing with the last bits left over of my A/B extraction. There was more crystal left than before so I guess it hadn't fully evaporated. I don't know if that contributed to my negative experience - e.g. the dose was low due to water still being there?

Anyway:

Mandelin - very small - turquoise
- small - black with turquoise edge
- medium - black with purple edge, Long term: black/sightly reddy brown

Marquis (needed much bigger quantities than traditionally with mehdma)
- small/medium - purple/grey to purple/black, Long term: black with a yellowy/brown edge
- medium - purple to grey, Long term: black with a yellowy/brown edge
- large - purple/black to black, Long term: black with a yellowy/brown edge

Mecke - small and medium - black with grey/blue edge
- very small - black but a bit more blue
- long term noticed red fringing but tested Mecke without anything and it did the same

 

[G_Chem]

@Kaden_Nite - You make very excellent points that I’d like to address.

In regards to the era’s, those are very loosely based on averages from synthesis route analysis studies, along with other information. They aren’t 100%, and should just be taken as the averages they are.

For instance, I often speak of Leuckart being a 90’s route but there is evidence of it being used up into the mid 2000’s. It just was no longer the most common route, but sure some people (indigo maybe) could and were still getting that type of MDMA even after a specific era.

Next you are also right that “such and such synthesis = certain batch of MDMA” ideology can be problematic too. There’s many steps along the way to get MDMA, and each step can change things up.

For instance, the hexamine to methylamine thing talked about before. If homemade can have ammonium chloride in it, if not purified. This homemade methylamine can be used in MANY synthesis routes as it needed often to attach the methyl portion of the molecule, so not only does the route effect things but minor changes in the precursors used can have effects on the end product too.

In the end we have to view this stuff as generalizations and remember to keep it all with a big grain of salt. We’re gonna be wrong a few times til we get it right. I myself have gone back n forth so much it hurts. What I do know without a shadow of a doubt; batch variation exists, why? Well that’s the answer I’ve been working on for years.

@ThreePointCircle - Interesting that you saw turquoise on the Mandelin but not Mecke? Usually I’ll see turquoise or green on the start for that reagent too, but as we know reagents can very slightly batch to batch. I’ll look at my notes again to see if any Mecke didn’t show green at the start.

-GC

 

[ThreePointCircle]

@ThreePointCircle - Interesting that you saw turquoise on the Mandelin but not Mecke? Usually I’ll see turquoise or green on the start for that reagent too, but as we know reagents can very slightly batch to batch. I’ll look at my notes again to see if any Mecke didn’t show green at the start.

Possibly my reagents are past their best. Have ordered some new ones and will re-test.

 

[Aeon Psyche]

I assume you either lost the magic or get pills with low quanity or possibly some other analog of mdma so it just doesn't feel the same. I can still get pure crystal mdma and even though i lost the magic long ago i still can tell when it is strong mdma or not.