What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[AlsoTapered]

umpolung

It was a rhetorical question - their are a couple of multi-step methodologies but neither are very attractive. L-PAC is obviously the most convenient precursor for BMK since it's uncontrolled and produced in vast quantities.

 

[snmfmy]

Yes, that's the current discussion.


Safrole (aka: 3,4-methylenedioxyallylbenzene) is still the primary starting precursor for clandestine production of MDP-2-P (aka: PMK), which is then reduced to MDx (usually MDMA, but it's also possible to make MDA, MDE, et al.). However, it is far from being the only chemical through which MDMA can be produced, some much easier and more efficient than others, but multiple ways still exist is the point as do multiple starting points. Because of the crackdown on sassafras oil and Safrole, clandestine manufacturers have sought and devised new methods to avoid unwanted scrutiny from law enforcement. New methods produce synthesis-specific side-products that LE analyze to reverse engineer the synthetic method used by the chemist to investigate who they might be, how they're producing the drug, where they're procuring their chemicals, and what new precursors need to be watched, controlled, and/or reported on by distributors.

So it's a game of cat & mouse… you know, pop goes the weasel & all that shiz.

I have a sort of on topic statement and question:

I was researching this issue and found this online report.

Main methamphetamine production methods used in Europe | www.emcdda.europa.eu

www.emcdda.europa.eu

It details multiple precursors to P2P, and MDP2P.

It also introduced me to the phenomenon of resolution -- recycle, re-racemize, resolution. Where the wanted enantiomer is separated (resolved) using tartaric acid, and the unwanted is re-racemized so it can be resolved again. Three passes = 87% yield of the isomer you want instead of 50%.

With 17,000 kg of tartaric acid siezed in Europe in 2020, it is clear that it is used to separate METH and likely MDMA, as we have SEEN MDMA-(bi)tartrate, which would be one stereoisomer.

This points me to the only REASONABLE conclusion I can make:

Some MDMA being produced is a single stereoisomer. Based on Shulgin and others, racemic MDMA has the magic and isomerically pure doesn't.

This is a reasonable, plausible, supported by evidence, and scientifically likely solution to the "what is wrong with MDMA today".

Comments/Criticism are welcome.

 

[snmfmy]

I believe it was detected in the meh mdma I sent to a friend. It's way back in this thread you are welcome to look. They still have to buy them as a reference standard and they ain't gonna pick up every one. They alreadly pickup over 30k.

Again this is only 1 batch of meh that was made from safrole that's all I can tell you that I know about it. Just because it is a standard doesn't mean they have it or think they don't need it..

Also MDDMA possibly COELUTES so even if they have it similar to fxe/can-ket . It can be EASILY missed is what is to be presumed mdma.i also might be mistaken it could have also been MDMMA (my mistake don't exactly remeber) which one is caused by excess methylamine. Eitherway the nmr is posted on that safrole batch it was one of the 3 of 4 we got to test along with a magic batch reguardless it's not the precourser. But the end product anyone is welcome to look back by typing NMR and my username.

Both samples at the time I believe went to energy control and university of Clemson both detected pure mdma. It wasn't until NMR was done that we noticed something

Another old MDMA batch tested with MDP2POL that's about all I remember

That doesn't mean it wasn't pure R-MDMA or pure S-MDMA.

Chemists are getting used to chiral separation. If they use tataric acid (which we KNOW has happened to because we have samples of MDMA tartrate) possibly because they have it sitting around and it's easier to use than HCL, -- voila, we have non-racemic MDMA.

 

[mauve]

Out of curiosity, since MDMA is at stage 3 clinical trials. Will it be easier to obtain, or produce it? Once it's widely available in the medical practices

 

[snmfmy]

Out of curiosity, since MDMA is at stage 3 clinical trials. Will it be easier to obtain, or produce it? Once it's widely available in the medical practices

Not likely.

Meth is actually a prescription drug (Desoxyn).

 

[AlsoTapered]

I believe the DEA has also added several radical initiators to it's list of controlled precursors. If memory serves they are used in the production of plastics and other large-scale enterprises so I'm not convinced it will be very successful.

Of course, one can simply use a chiral auxiliary during the synthesis. If memory serves one of the earliest patented syntheses of dexamphetamine used (1R)-1-phenylethan-1-amine during the reductive amination and then the unwanted benzylamine was removed via hydrogenation. In fact, the whole thing can be carried out as a single reaction.

Now I believe that chiral hydrogenation catalysts are used.

It's not that chiral compounds and their utility are new - it's merely the case that when BMK became costly, it became more economic to resolve the (much more) active enantiomer, racemize the 'waste' and feed it back into the resolution process.

A few months ago someone posted who was working on optimizing the best isometric ratios of MDMA and AMT related compounds. The premise was that the two enantiomers both produce a subjective effect and was superior to the enantiopure compounds. I don't think amphetamine or methamphetamine were within their remit.

I'm not entirely sure if one can use radical initiators with MD ring-substituted amphetamines. That bridge is not uber-stable. The benzofuran analogues are likely much more stable.

 

[unodelacosa]

5-10% Is not so bad.

Energy Control's responses in that thread are laughably bad. What a bunch of jokers. Quel farceur.

Interesting links you shared.

Some MDMA being produced is a single stereoisomer. Based on Shulgin and others, racemic MDMA has the magic and isomerically pure doesn't.

This is a reasonable, plausible, supported by evidence, and scientifically likely solution to the "what is wrong with MDMA today".

Comments/Criticism are welcome.

Who knows? Except that there's an episode of Hamilton Morris' podcast where he speaks to an old deadhead chemists' apprentice and he goes on at length about how much better enantiomerically pure R-MDA is compared to the racemate. Plus this would only lower yields, without improving the quality like it does for meth.

I'm not entirely sure if one can use radical initiators with MD ring-substituted amphetamines. That bridge is not uber-stable.

Yes, without much effort it becomes a catechol stimulant, and probably an abrasive one at that.

The benzofuran analogues are likely much more stable.

Yes, I am reminded of the difference in duration between 2C-B and 2C-B-FLY… it's the stability provided by the furan rings.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Who knows? Except that there's an episode of Hamilton Morris' podcast where he speaks to an old deadhead chemists' apprentice and he goes on at length about how much better enantiomerically pure R-MDA is compared to the racemate. Plus this would only lower yields, without improving the quality like it does for meth.

I truly have no idea as to the veracity of the concept. But they have apparently patented the idea. MDA wasn't mentioned, only MDMA and aMT derivatives. The former Shulgin reported on the enantiomers producing different effects, the latter I tried out many years ago. (S) AMT is actually buried within the structure of LSD and so I asked for a sample of AMT to be resolved and (R) AMT has a significantly different action. An entactogen that became more psychedelic at higher doses but I will be honest, I did not go too high with AMT doses.

 

[vash445]

That doesn't mean it wasn't pure R-MDMA or pure S-MDMA.

Chemists are getting used to chiral separation. If they use tataric acid (which we KNOW has happened to because we have samples of MDMA tartrate) possibly because they have it sitting around and it's easier to use than HCL, -- voila, we have non-racemic MDMA.

Not so simple man it does mean it's NOT PURE regardless of enantiomers because NMR showed safrole, MDP2POL and MDDMA when EC and others even my owns friend university showed pure.. But when NMR came into the picture out of every sample we tested only the MAGIC batch had a clean NMR the rest we tested didn't. Reguardless of enantiomers 300mg+ should do something but all anyone did was get a slight mood lift of the MDDMA batch

 

[snmfmy]

Not so simple man it does mean it's NOT PURE regardless of enantiomers because NMR showed safrole, MDP2POL and MDDMA when EC and others even my owns friend university showed pure.. But when NMR came into the picture out of every sample we tested only the MAGIC batch had a clean NMR the rest we tested didn't.

Why would you need NMR to distinguish MDP2POL, MDDMA, and Safrole from MDMA?

They are not the same mass so you wouldn't need NMR.

We can throw residual safrole out as an issue b/c it's been an impurity for decades and it falsifies the PMK-GLY hypothesis.

MDDMA is an impurity caused by synthesis of MDMA by methylation of MDA using methyl iodide, not commonly a route of synthesis. But I've probably eaten it.

MDP-2-Pol has also likely been a longstanding impurity of many batches of MAGIC MDMA over the years because you get there from safrole and some acid. I've probably eaten that too.

So you have a few batches with impurities that you have ZERO EVIDENCE attenuate the effects of MDMA. You don't provide mass fraction of impurities.

Were the samples pills? What mass of MDMA was identified by NMR?

You also have not identified the stereo isomer configuration of the (2, 3, 5) "impure" batches. vs 2 "pure" batches, and the only discrimination is subjective effect.

C'mon man. That's ridiculous.

I have never NEVER EVER in 25 years of eating beans had Meh-MDMA. I've had not-MDMA, I've had MDMA that was significantly cut, but in EVERY SINGLE BEAN or line of MDMA that tested reasonably clean, and reasonable concentration (yes WAG), and the correct dose THE MAGIC WAS ALWAYS THERE.

EVERY TIME

There was a period of time around 1999-2002 where I was associated with club venue and event management. I would eat whatever beans people gave me, beans security "confiscated" from dealers, gifts from patrons, literally 6-10 beans a week every week. So if it was in a pill I probably ate it unless it tested dangerous.


And I can guarantee I've eaten beans or powder that had MDDMA (used to get beans that were an MDA/MDMA combined press , safrole (root beer taste), and MDP2pol because backyard safrole reactions in the 90s. (your impurities)

I've eaten over 500 beans and at least 20 grams worth of powder since the mid-late 90s so if it's an impurity from an MDA or MDMA synth I've eaten it.

AND I have eaten beans and powder since then, all the way through to today.

SO MY SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE FALSIFIES YOUR HYPOTHESIS, namely identifying there is ONLY ONE actual DISCRIMINATOR between your 'meh' and not-meh --

personal subjective experience.

I've almost certainly eaten duplicates of you meh and it was Magical.

Which isn't science.

 

[vash445]

Why would you need NMR to distinguish MDP2POL, MDDMA, and Safrole from MDMA?

They are not the same mass so you wouldn't need NMR.

We can throw residual safrole out as an issue b/c it's been an impurity for decades and it falsifies the PMK-GLY hypothesis.

MDDMA is an impurity caused by synthesis of MDMA by methylation of MDA using methyl iodide, not commonly a route of synthesis. But I've probably eaten it.

MDP-2-Pol has also likely been a longstanding impurity of many batches of MAGIC MDMA over the years because you get there from safrole and some acid. I've probably eaten that too.

So you have a few batches with impurities that you have ZERO EVIDENCE attenuate the effects of MDMA. You don't provide mass fraction of impurities.

Were the samples pills? What mass of MDMA was identified by NMR?

You also have not identified the stereo isomer configuration of the (2, 3, 5) "impure" batches. vs 2 "pure" batches, and the only discrimination is subjective effect.

C'mon man. That's ridiculous.

I have never NEVER EVER in 25 years of eating beans had Meh-MDMA. I've had not-MDMA, I've had MDMA that was significantly cut, but in EVERY SINGLE BEAN or line of MDMA that tested reasonably clean, and reasonable concentration (yes WAG), and the correct dose THE MAGIC WAS ALWAYS THERE.

EVERY TIME

There was a period of time around 1999-2002 where I was associated with club venue and event management. I would eat whatever beans people gave me, beans security "confiscated" from dealers, gifts from patrons, literally 6-10 beans a week every week. So if it was in a pill I probably ate it unless it tested dangerous.


And I can guarantee I've eaten beans or powder that had MDDMA (used to get beans that were an MDA/MDMA combined press , safrole (root beer taste), and MDP2pol because backyard safrole reactions in the 90s. (your impurities)

I've eaten over 500 beans and at least 20 grams worth of powder since the mid-late 90s so if it's an impurity from an MDA or MDMA synth I've eaten it.

AND I have eaten beans and powder since then, all the way through to today.

SO MY SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE FALSIFIES YOUR HYPOTHESIS, namely identifying there is ONLY ONE actual DISCRIMINATOR between your 'meh' and not-meh --

personal subjective experience.

I've almost certainly eaten duplicates of you meh and it was Magical.

Which isn't science.

Except when we subjected samples via MALDI and before NMR they had all meh and magic had the MOL weight of MDMA... The MDP2Pol batch and the MDDMA were def one I dont remember what else. I would have to look way back in the notes but it def isnt as black and white as MOL WEIGHT that much we have discussed earlier... At least that's all the input I have...

 

[snmfmy]

Except when we subjected samples via MALDI and before NMR they had all meh and magic had the MOL weight of MDMA... The MDP2Pol batch and the MDDMA were def one I dont remember what else. I would have to look way back in the notes but it def isnt as black and white as MOL WEIGHT that much we have discussed earlier...

The adulterants would be easily identified by LC/GC/MS.

Structural isomers OTOH that many times you do need NMR. stereo-isomers as well, unless you are doing chiral liquid column chromatography.

We KNOW the impurities you listed are not structural isomers of MDMA because they have a different molar mass than MDMA.

 

[vash445]

The adulterants would be easily identified by LC/GC/MS.

Structural isomers OTOH that many times you do need NMR. stereo-isomers as well, unless you are doing chiral liquid column chromatography.

We KNOW the impurities you listed are not structural isomers of MDMA because they have a different molar mass than MDMA.

AND yet something is missing at these labs. For whatever reason... I'm not sure that is all I know. That when subjected to GC/MS at Clemson it showed pure something was missing when subjected to NMR we saw something except magic which had a clean NMR. How much is them not giving us the graphs/ readings so we can make our own judgements, I have no idea.

 

[vash445]

The adulterants would be easily identified by LC/GC/MS.

Structural isomers OTOH that many times you do need NMR. stereo-isomers as well, unless you are doing chiral liquid column chromatography.

We KNOW the impurities you listed are not structural isomers of MDMA because they have a different molar mass than MDMA.

However I do have some VERY good news in a week or 2...

 

[Didgital]

Some MDMA being produced is a single stereoisomer

I'm not saying your wrong, but could you send me a single scientific paper detailing enantiopure MDMA? I have my doubts that this is true.

 

[vash445]

We been arguing so long I wish it was that easy

 

[snmfmy]

I'm not saying your wrong, but could you send me a single scientific paper detailing enantiopure MDMA? I have my doubts that this is true.

ACS Publications
https://pubs.acs.org › doi › pdf
Swim in the Chiral Pool: MDMA and MDA ...

And they can get there with tartaric acid. And there have been pills/samples of MDMA-tartrate that have been identified in LEO reports in Europe.

Shulgin reported in Pihkal that single isomer R (which he synthed or separated), didn't have the magic of racemic MDMA.

(with 100 mg of the "R" isomer) There were the slightest of effects noted at about an hour (a couple of paresthetic twinges) and then nothing at all.

(with 160 mg of the "R" isomer) A disturbance of baseline at about forty minutes and this lasts for about another hour. Everything is clear by the third hour.

(with 200 mg of the "R" isomer) A progression from an alert at thirty minutes to a soft and light intoxication that did not persist. This was a modest +, and I was at baseline in another hour.

120mg of racemic MDMA he called a +++ in his writings

 

[unodelacosa]

I have a sort of on topic statement and question:

I was researching this issue and found this online report.

Main methamphetamine production methods used in Europe | www.emcdda.europa.eu

www.emcdda.europa.eu

It details multiple precursors to P2P, and MDP2P.

It also introduced me to the phenomenon of resolution -- recycle, re-racemize, resolution. Where the wanted enantiomer is separated (resolved) using tartaric acid, and the unwanted is re-racemized so it can be resolved again. Three passes = 87% yield of the isomer you want instead of 50%.

With 17,000 kg of tartaric acid siezed in Europe in 2020, it is clear that it is used to separate METH and likely MDMA, as we have SEEN MDMA-(bi)tartrate, which would be one stereoisomer.

This points me to the only REASONABLE conclusion I can make:

Some MDMA being produced is a single stereoisomer. Based on Shulgin and others, racemic MDMA has the magic and isomerically pure doesn't.

This is a reasonable, plausible, supported by evidence, and scientifically likely solution to the "what is wrong with MDMA today".

Comments/Criticism are welcome.

I thought you said you had a question. I see the statement, and then more declarative statements, but no inquisitive ones, lol. I'm just bustin' yer chops though; I got the gist of what you're wondering.

So if racemic (±)-MDMA is being resolved to a single isomer, how come all the seizure data shows an overwhelming amount of just the racemic MDMA? I hear what you're saying regarding the MDMA-(bi)tartrate and all, but still, you'd think we'd see more enantiospecific, confiscated, contraband MDMA than we do in the published reports from e.g. the DEA, Interpol, and those sorts.

Check out this Hamilton Morris podcast; it's pretty relevant to the topic: Hamilton Morris Podcast 48: Interview with a clandestine MDA enantiopurifier. This guy details how amazing R-MDA is compared to racemic MDA. Now this stands in contrast to what Sasha had to say about R-MDA.

Also worthy of note: Swim in the Chiral Pool: MDMA and MDA Enantiomers from Alanine-Derived Precursors EDIT: oops, just noticed you had already posted this link @snmfmy … my bizzle.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Honestly I always suspected that I would enjoy R MDMA more than racemic and I had suspicions that some MDMA out there was S heavy although no data besides my own personal use to back that up

 

[unodelacosa]

I had suspicions that some MDMA out there was S heavy although no data besides my own personal use to back that up

Well, I'm still not sure how prevalent enantiopurification is. If you listen to that podcast, you'll notice the guy said they mostly sold racemic MDA, and would keep a small reserve of R-MDA around as personals and to share with friends. It seems, to me, that the market has always been heavily dominated by racemic MDx, and pill seizure data has consistently reflected this over the years. Also we should strive to avoid confirmation bias, and not grant too much credence to anecdotal data to vouch for a theory.

Also, after resolution of the isomers, let's say the desired R configuration goes to market. This doesn't necessarily mean the S would go to market as well. There's a quick procedure that will convert all of that S-isomer into a new racemic blend, and then it can be separated again, repeat, ad infinitum