-
MDMA &
Empathogenic
Drugs
Welcome Guest! -
What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2
- Thread starter Le Junk
- Start date
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
I believe the DEA has also added several radical initiators to it's list of controlled precursors. If memory serves they are used in the production of plastics and other large-scale enterprises so I'm not convinced it will be very successful.
Of course, one can simply use a chiral auxiliary during the synthesis. If memory serves one of the earliest patented syntheses of dexamphetamine used (1R)-1-phenylethan-1-amine during the reductive amination and then the unwanted benzylamine was removed via hydrogenation. In fact, the whole thing can be carried out as a single reaction.
Now I believe that chiral hydrogenation catalysts are used.
It's not that chiral compounds and their utility are new - it's merely the case that when BMK became costly, it became more economic to resolve the (much more) active enantiomer, racemize the 'waste' and feed it back into the resolution process.
A few months ago someone posted who was working on optimizing the best isometric ratios of MDMA and AMT related compounds. The premise was that the two enantiomers both produce a subjective effect and was superior to the enantiopure compounds. I don't think amphetamine or methamphetamine were within their remit.
I'm not entirely sure if one can use radical initiators with MD ring-substituted amphetamines. That bridge is not uber-stable. The benzofuran analogues are likely much more stable.
Of course, one can simply use a chiral auxiliary during the synthesis. If memory serves one of the earliest patented syntheses of dexamphetamine used (1R)-1-phenylethan-1-amine during the reductive amination and then the unwanted benzylamine was removed via hydrogenation. In fact, the whole thing can be carried out as a single reaction.
Now I believe that chiral hydrogenation catalysts are used.
It's not that chiral compounds and their utility are new - it's merely the case that when BMK became costly, it became more economic to resolve the (much more) active enantiomer, racemize the 'waste' and feed it back into the resolution process.
A few months ago someone posted who was working on optimizing the best isometric ratios of MDMA and AMT related compounds. The premise was that the two enantiomers both produce a subjective effect and was superior to the enantiopure compounds. I don't think amphetamine or methamphetamine were within their remit.
I'm not entirely sure if one can use radical initiators with MD ring-substituted amphetamines. That bridge is not uber-stable. The benzofuran analogues are likely much more stable.
unodelacosa
Bluelighter
Energy Control's responses in that thread are laughably bad. What a bunch of jokers. Quel farceur.
Interesting links you shared.
Who knows? Except that there's an episode of Hamilton Morris' podcast where he speaks to an old deadhead chemists' apprentice and he goes on at length about how much better enantiomerically pure R-MDA is compared to the racemate. Plus this would only lower yields, without improving the quality like it does for meth.
Yes, without much effort it becomes a catechol stimulant, and probably an abrasive one at that.
Yes, I am reminded of the difference in duration between 2C-B and 2C-B-FLY… it's the stability provided by the furan rings.
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
I truly have no idea as to the veracity of the concept. But they have apparently patented the idea. MDA wasn't mentioned, only MDMA and aMT derivatives. The former Shulgin reported on the enantiomers producing different effects, the latter I tried out many years ago. (S) AMT is actually buried within the structure of LSD and so I asked for a sample of AMT to be resolved and (R) AMT has a significantly different action. An entactogen that became more psychedelic at higher doses but I will be honest, I did not go too high with AMT doses.
Not so simple man it does mean it's NOT PURE regardless of enantiomers because NMR showed safrole, MDP2POL and MDDMA when EC and others even my owns friend university showed pure.. But when NMR came into the picture out of every sample we tested only the MAGIC batch had a clean NMR the rest we tested didn't. Reguardless of enantiomers 300mg+ should do something but all anyone did was get a slight mood lift of the MDDMA batch
Last edited:
Why would you need NMR to distinguish MDP2POL, MDDMA, and Safrole from MDMA?
They are not the same mass so you wouldn't need NMR.
We can throw residual safrole out as an issue b/c it's been an impurity for decades and it falsifies the PMK-GLY hypothesis.
MDDMA is an impurity caused by synthesis of MDMA by methylation of MDA using methyl iodide, not commonly a route of synthesis. But I've probably eaten it.
MDP-2-Pol has also likely been a longstanding impurity of many batches of MAGIC MDMA over the years because you get there from safrole and some acid. I've probably eaten that too.
So you have a few batches with impurities that you have ZERO EVIDENCE attenuate the effects of MDMA. You don't provide mass fraction of impurities.
Were the samples pills? What mass of MDMA was identified by NMR?
You also have not identified the stereo isomer configuration of the (2, 3, 5) "impure" batches. vs 2 "pure" batches, and the only discrimination is subjective effect.
C'mon man. That's ridiculous.
I have never NEVER EVER in 25 years of eating beans had Meh-MDMA. I've had not-MDMA, I've had MDMA that was significantly cut, but in EVERY SINGLE BEAN or line of MDMA that tested reasonably clean, and reasonable concentration (yes WAG), and the correct dose THE MAGIC WAS ALWAYS THERE.
EVERY TIME
There was a period of time around 1999-2002 where I was associated with club venue and event management. I would eat whatever beans people gave me, beans security "confiscated" from dealers, gifts from patrons, literally 6-10 beans a week every week. So if it was in a pill I probably ate it unless it tested dangerous.
And I can guarantee I've eaten beans or powder that had MDDMA (used to get beans that were an MDA/MDMA combined press , safrole (root beer taste), and MDP2pol because backyard safrole reactions in the 90s. (your impurities)
I've eaten over 500 beans and at least 20 grams worth of powder since the mid-late 90s so if it's an impurity from an MDA or MDMA synth I've eaten it.
AND I have eaten beans and powder since then, all the way through to today.
SO MY SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE FALSIFIES YOUR HYPOTHESIS, namely identifying there is ONLY ONE actual DISCRIMINATOR between your 'meh' and not-meh --
personal subjective experience.
I've almost certainly eaten duplicates of you meh and it was Magical.
Which isn't science.
Except when we subjected samples via MALDI and before NMR they had all meh and magic had the MOL weight of MDMA... The MDP2Pol batch and the MDDMA were def one I dont remember what else. I would have to look way back in the notes but it def isnt as black and white as MOL WEIGHT that much we have discussed earlier... At least that's all the input I have...
Last edited:
The adulterants would be easily identified by LC/GC/MS.
Structural isomers OTOH that many times you do need NMR. stereo-isomers as well, unless you are doing chiral liquid column chromatography.
We KNOW the impurities you listed are not structural isomers of MDMA because they have a different molar mass than MDMA.
AND yet something is missing at these labs. For whatever reason... I'm not sure that is all I know. That when subjected to GC/MS at Clemson it showed pure something was missing when subjected to NMR we saw something except magic which had a clean NMR. How much is them not giving us the graphs/ readings so we can make our own judgements, I have no idea.
However I do have some VERY good news in a week or 2...
Didgital
Bluelight Crew
I'm not saying your wrong, but could you send me a single scientific paper detailing enantiopure MDMA? I have my doubts that this is true.
ACS Publications
https://pubs.acs.org › doi › pdf
Swim in the Chiral Pool: MDMA and MDA ...
And they can get there with tartaric acid. And there have been pills/samples of MDMA-tartrate that have been identified in LEO reports in Europe.
Shulgin reported in Pihkal that single isomer R (which he synthed or separated), didn't have the magic of racemic MDMA.
(with 100 mg of the "R" isomer) There were the slightest of effects noted at about an hour (a couple of paresthetic twinges) and then nothing at all.
(with 160 mg of the "R" isomer) A disturbance of baseline at about forty minutes and this lasts for about another hour. Everything is clear by the third hour.
(with 200 mg of the "R" isomer) A progression from an alert at thirty minutes to a soft and light intoxication that did not persist. This was a modest +, and I was at baseline in another hour.
120mg of racemic MDMA he called a +++ in his writings
Last edited:
unodelacosa
Bluelighter
I thought you said you had a question. I see the statement, and then more declarative statements, but no inquisitive ones, lol. I'm just bustin' yer chops though; I got the gist of what you're wondering.I have a sort of on topic statement and question:
I was researching this issue and found this online report.
Main methamphetamine production methods used in Europe | www.emcdda.europa.eu
www.emcdda.europa.eu
It details multiple precursors to P2P, and MDP2P.
It also introduced me to the phenomenon of resolution -- recycle, re-racemize, resolution. Where the wanted enantiomer is separated (resolved) using tartaric acid, and the unwanted is re-racemized so it can be resolved again. Three passes = 87% yield of the isomer you want instead of 50%.
With 17,000 kg of tartaric acid siezed in Europe in 2020, it is clear that it is used to separate METH and likely MDMA, as we have SEEN MDMA-(bi)tartrate, which would be one stereoisomer.
This points me to the only REASONABLE conclusion I can make:
Some MDMA being produced is a single stereoisomer. Based on Shulgin and others, racemic MDMA has the magic and isomerically pure doesn't.
This is a reasonable, plausible, supported by evidence, and scientifically likely solution to the "what is wrong with MDMA today".
Comments/Criticism are welcome.
So if racemic (±)-MDMA is being resolved to a single isomer, how come all the seizure data shows an overwhelming amount of just the racemic MDMA? I hear what you're saying regarding the MDMA-(bi)tartrate and all, but still, you'd think we'd see more enantiospecific, confiscated, contraband MDMA than we do in the published reports from e.g. the DEA, Interpol, and those sorts.
Check out this Hamilton Morris podcast; it's pretty relevant to the topic: Hamilton Morris Podcast 48: Interview with a clandestine MDA enantiopurifier. This guy details how amazing R-MDA is compared to racemic MDA. Now this stands in contrast to what Sasha had to say about R-MDA.
Also worthy of note: Swim in the Chiral Pool: MDMA and MDA Enantiomers from Alanine-Derived Precursors EDIT: oops, just noticed you had already posted this link @snmfmy … my bizzle.
Honestly I always suspected that I would enjoy R MDMA more than racemic and I had suspicions that some MDMA out there was S heavy although no data besides my own personal use to back that up
unodelacosa
Bluelighter
Well, I'm still not sure how prevalent enantiopurification is. If you listen to that podcast, you'll notice the guy said they mostly sold racemic MDA, and would keep a small reserve of R-MDA around as personals and to share with friends. It seems, to me, that the market has always been heavily dominated by racemic MDx, and pill seizure data has consistently reflected this over the years. Also we should strive to avoid confirmation bias, and not grant too much credence to anecdotal data to vouch for a theory.
Also, after resolution of the isomers, let's say the desired R configuration goes to market. This doesn't necessarily mean the S would go to market as well. There's a quick procedure that will convert all of that S-isomer into a new racemic blend, and then it can be separated again, repeat, ad infinitum
Firstly, let me be CLEAR: I think meh-MDMA is bullshit. MDMA is the same REGARDLESS how you get to MDP2P, with the exception of TRACE impurities.
So what could be causing meh-MDMA?
1. ITS NOT MDMA - meaning it wasn't tested, or it can't be differentiated from MDMA even using NMR spectography - which is far-fetched to say the least.
2. An impurity exists (unidentified) that is active at the low single mg level, that diminishes the empathogenic action of MDMA, yet ONLY DIMINISHES THE ACTION OF MDMA, without any other deleterious effect on the body or brain. -- Sounds like a wonder drug, or an MDMA chemist's worst nightmare.
I MEAN IMAGINE THERE IS THIS BOOGEYMAN IMPURITY THAT CAUSES YOUR MOLLY TO BE JUNK.
3. The dose is small.
4. It's an issue with enantiomeric ratio.
We know multiple psychoactive drugs that have vastly different actions between/across enantiomers/stereoisomers.
Methamphetamine, MDMA, and the Aminorex group (with 2 chiral centers they have 4 isomers) - to name a few quickly.
We have also seen stereo-isomer separation processes implemented in clandestine drug production.
It's the only reasonable theory I can propose except this one:
Dopaminergic+Serotonergic+NE dampening due to
(A) intermittent idiopathic physiologic phenomenology, or
(B) unexpected pharmacological interference.
There are many physiological processes that can intermittently dampen the DA/5HT/NE response to drugs like MDMA. Age is the first on the list. Long-term drug use is the second. Nutritional state is third (a diet low in vitamin c and tryptophan will cause a lessened norepinephrine and serotonin response because they are necessary for synthesis)
But I recently (about a year ago) came upon a phenomenon that I had not experienced previously.
I had taken a break from street drugs b/c of unrelated health reasons
I took a known (subjectively by someone) good molly pill that tested MDXX and something - a mix with likely a benzofuran. And it was rubbish.
Took some powder from the baggy a week later, rubbish - although the length of effects were comparable to 5/6-(*)APB(*) and MDXX combo.
Took some mushrooms that everybody else was tripping balls on -- nothing but mild visuals.
A little bump of crystal -- dampened euphoria and shittier sympathomimetic effects than normal.
I thought I was fucked.
Then I realized there was something different:
I WAS CURRENTLY AND HAD BEEN ON 1600-2000 mg/day of GABAPENTIN for the last year.
So I tapered down, did a 2-week washout, and tried again.
Molly --Yay
Mushrooms -- woohoo
Crystal -- smooth and euphoric
Gabapentin isn't supposed to have that type of action. Although it is known to affect DA/5HT/NE levels in the brain and body, it is a calcium channel blocker and also an extra-synaptic GABAp receptor agonist.
It wasn't until yesterday that I realized my personal almost nightmare might be the reason for what is wrong with MDMA.
DIFFERENTIAL subjective experience because of UNEXPECTED PHARMACOLOGICAL INTERFERENCE.
Gabapentin didn't become widely prescribed or abused by poly-drug users until after it became a generic in 2004.
What OTHER seemingly innocuous pharmaceuticals (especially newer antidepressants) or even RCs have unknown effects of unknown duration on the response to MDMA and other psychoactive drugs?
OR MAYBE YOU ARE JUST OLD, AND/OR HAVE TAKEN TOO MANY DRUGS, AND/OR HAVE BAD NUTRITION
Last edited:
Respectfully, the "interference with monoamine transporters" specifically refers to DAT, SERT, and NET.
My post proposes INTERMITTENT dampening of the DA/5HT/NE response - caused by modulation of the ENTIRE system by something not in the meh-MDMA and not expected, LIKE GABAPENTIN which supposedly doesn't DIRECTLY AFFECT the systems specific to MDMA.
For example, the endocannabinoid receptors modulate the serotonin system.
Modulation of the Serotonin System by Endocannabinoid Signaling - PMC
The cannabinoid CB1 receptors and their endogenous agonists, endocannabinoids (eCBs), are ubiquitously distributed throughout the central nervous system (CNS), where they play a key role in the regulation of neuronal excitability. As such, CB ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
It has only been recently that THC content of marijuana has consistently exceeded 25%, or that it has been legalized recreationally.
It is a comparatively TINY number of people that have experienced "meh-MDMA" that has been lab tested and confirmed as actual MDMA. It's not widespread.
Furthermore, I personally know people who take Gabapentin and experience MDMA just fine.
What I am proposing is that some people have an intermittent dampening of their response to MDMA that has nothing to do with what's in the pill and everything to do with mindset, nutritional status, and other Rx and non-prescription drugs consumed. These responses may only apply to individuals or a small percentage of people.
As another example, ceftriaxone (omnicef) a beta-lactam antibiotic restores the levels of depleted DA/5HT if given post METH usage.
Effects of repeated high-dose methamphetamine and ceftriaxone post-treatments on tissue content of dopamine and serotonin as well as glutamate and glutamine - PubMed
Repeated exposure to high doses of methamphetamine (METH) is known to alter several neurotransmitters in certain brain regions. Little is known about the effects of ceftriaxone (CEF), a β-lactam antibiotic, known to upregulate glutamate transporter subtype 1, post-treatment on METH-induced...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
If an antibiotic can elicit such a change to the DA/5HT system POST METH USE, what effect could it have pre or concurrently.
I think only an extremely small number of people are even aware of the effects of gabapentin on the response to 5HT releases/agonists, or the effects of CEF on DA/5HT levels post METH.
Or that weed modulates the response to 5HT.
I would also wager that the number of people who experienced meh-MDMA (lab confirmed) and were not concurrently or very recently using another or many other drugs of any type is ZERO.
Last edited:
This is inconsistent with the Meh-MDMA report listed in this post and many others.