Thumbprinting LSD

[Ness]

Personally I think thumbprinting is irresponsible and also wasteful of LSD. If you know somebody who is into high dose LSD experiences, they'll confirm that nothing changes, except the duration & side effects, once you get [past about 1.5mg. Thumbprinting has all the hallmarks of testosterone fuelled stupidity IMO

I really disagree with you here. I've always been told that at super-high doses, receptor saturation is somehow overcome and the subjective effects DO increase. Why, exactly, this is I don't know, but as anyone who has taken a Thumbprint and they will tell you that it isn't the same as a 1.5mg trip only longer.

 

[whitefluff]

I would be happy with a pinky print a thumb is just crazy8( 8( 8(

 

[It's a baby!]

I really disagree with you here. I've always been told that at super-high doses, receptor saturation is somehow overcome and the subjective effects DO increase. Why, exactly, this is I don't know, but as anyone who has taken a Thumbprint and they will tell you that it isn't the same as a 1.5mg trip only longer.

I've never fully understood receptor saturation. I know LSD mainly affects 5-HT receptors (specifically a few certain subclasses I can't remember), but doesn't it also affect dopamine reuptake, albeit not very strongly?

 

[Ness]

^I'm pretty sure, yes. At some point LSD does SOMETHING other than act as a 5-HT agonist that increases the subjective effects and not just the objective physical effects.

 

[EntheoDjinn]

.............The scene is very small now, and there are still a few who come for the wrong reasons, but thankfully a lot of those people don't show up at all anymore.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "the wrong reasons". Not challenging it, just curious

 

[retired_chemist]

People who are not there for the show but are there interested only in distributing drugs.

 

[dorothyperkins]

its not a selective 5ht2a agonist at any dose, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LSDaffinities.GIF

 

[Ness]

People who are not there for the show but are there interested only in distributing drugs.

That's not even necessarily a wrong reason. For all you know, that person is there selling acid at-cost simply because he wants to spread LSD. His taste in music doesn't necessarily determine his character.

 

[squerll]

I'm not sure who you mean when you say the "Family".

Well “family” is a very broad definition. I have always thought of the dead family as a group that shares a common vision and life journey. I am sure you know that Dead shows were rituals to a lot of people similar to a peyote ritual is to an Indian and in these rituals a lot of times participants can see a common vision which brings them close together in a general spiritual family. The main general Dead family branches out in to various clans and smaller tribes and “families”, as you will. But basically everyone on tour is family brought together by a common vision and dream that is based on love.
It seems like you are older then me and been on tour longer then me so I’m not quite sure why I am explaining this to you but you asked me what I meant family so that is what I mean by family.
I have ran with the Dead family before and played around on tour not very much because it is not my thing, but I have shared visions and experiences and lived on the road with the Dead family and would consider the Dead family as one of my extended tribal families.
A lot of people who did tour didn’t have any other family and the Dead family was their only and main family to those people the “family” probably has a more deeper meaning. A lot of people were very devoted to the family it was their entire life.

I remember what I thought of as "family". People that glamorize the distribution of drugs on the tour are probably not part of my "family", but I would not be surprised if they were part of the elements that really fucked up the scene on the tours..

I’m not quite sure why you think a lot of theses posts are glamorizing drug dealing. I haven’t read anywhere people bragging about who much money, women and power they got out of spreading LSD around the family, mostly just how spiritually rewarding it was.
You could classify the distribution of LSD by the Dead family as drug dealing in a narrow sense but it was a lot more then that to most people. Most of the people involved were using LSD for self-exploration and to find love share love and a common vision. For the most part they were making a sacred sacrament available for spiritual healing and self-exploration to their tribe and the universe, which is some of the most powerful medicine you can give to fellow man. I’m sure not everyone was 100% pure a heart and I’m sure few did it for the money but for the most part I think it was trying to bring and spread love and healing in the universe.

I still do a dozen or so shows every year depending on how much time life will give me. The scene is very small now, and there are still a few who come for the wrong reasons, but thankfully a lot of those people don't show up at all anymore.

I hate to break it to you but the phenomena called Dead tour is gone, it died with Jerry Garcia.

 

[rainstorm]

^^
Too much information

BTW I believe a thumbprint will be between 40mg and 120mg of LSD. These are massive doses.

And no, I'd never do it. Standard doses of psychedelics take enough of a toll on my sanity.

Holy %&#$!! 40-120mg, that sounds about right for a pure lsd crystal thumbprint. But I cannot imagine how f***ed that would get you. That's 40,000-120,000mcg. I've only taken probably ~500mcg. You would trip out for days I'm sure...probably would give yourself massive HPPD, and PTSD, maybe serotonin syndrome. But that would be one hell of a trip. I might do that if I knew I was going to die soon, that would make for one heck of an ending.

 

[Pimp Lazy]

A lot of people who did tour didn’t have any other family and the Dead family was their only and main family to those people the “family” probably has a more deeper meaning. A lot of people were very devoted to the family it was their entire life.

You could classify the distribution of LSD by the Dead family as drug dealing in a narrow sense but it was a lot more then that to most people.

He doesn't mean Family in this sense. It's not like a "Welcome home!" type family. It's THE "Family". It's a potentially mythical organization of LSD producers on the West Coast. I've had what people called "Family Acid" and had it been phenomenal and strong, but for the most part it's used as a marketing tactic. I think the myth of the Family is in someway tied to the Brotherhood of Eternal Love, but I can't remember all these stories. I'm also on a 150mg of seroquel so it's difficult.

I really disagree with you here. I've always been told that at super-high doses, receptor saturation is somehow overcome and the subjective effects DO increase. Why, exactly, this is I don't know, but as anyone who has taken a Thumbprint and they will tell you that it isn't the same as a 1.5mg trip only longer.

I can imagine that active metabolites along with non-metabolized LSD would change the character of the trip. I'm glad I could add "receptor saturation" to your lexicon .

There is only so much glutamate accumulated in your cells. Certainly you do produce more, but at some point the amount of LSD is higher than what can be communicated between your cells. Similar as to why a 1.5mg LSD trip would take longer as you've only got some much of whatever enzyme breaks down LSD. I also know that I have several years of university level biology and chemistry under my belt and I don't have a full understanding. So trying to garner the intricacies of LSD metabolism as well as arguing the subjective effects from something you heard from someone is silly. I'll keep myself open to your ramblings, but for the moment I'm going to act more on what F&B says as he knows what he talking about.

I do have a little smile because you're just so goddamned argumentative. It's a good thing to be critical and I often times have fun being a sophist or at least devil's advocate. I'm not saying give up, but you should learn some organic chemistry, cellular biology, biochemistry, and a pharmacology course or two. Or start reading on your own.

PAX,
PL

 

[B9]

To me , the Family/Brotherhood of eternal love represent an almost mythical idealism, which, I for one, kind of subscribe to , however niave/romantic that may seem.

 

[retired_chemist]

As far as the "Dead family" goes, which was the only family I was much of a part of, in the late 70s and early 80s we were going to shows without worrying about tickets. The scene was very much family then. Around 84 things started to change rapidly and by 85 the shows had pretty much spun out of control. The "family" was still on tour but a lot of other people had joined up.

As far as some of this other "thumbprint culture" stuff that's gone around, the people I knew then that had large access to paper got just that - paper. Maybe it came from "The Family", I don't know. I only know it came from the west coast, and I also know for a fact those people were never part of any of this flowery karmic thumbprint brotherhood, but then again they would have never have been so reckless as to get involved with anybody doing anything as risky as moving lots of paper on the tour.

The people who did sell doses on the tours - at least in the later 80s, sorry but I just don't see things in the same rosy tinted glasses. The band began imploring people in the mid 80s to not jeopardize their ability to play by showing up without tickets and engaging in illegal activities around the shows.

Unfortunately it was exactly those people who started showing up in droves. I never saw them as "kind heady brahs spreading the sacrament and healing the universe." Mostly a just bunch of people who brought a lot of bad publicity to the scene, did not even go into a lot of the shows and sold doses to finance travelling around. It was not about spiritual reward, it was about make enough cash to get to the next show, sell more doses, probably not bother to see the show, and continue spreading the bad reps the tour got.

And as far as the "phenomena" ending I guess a lot of people just went home. Maybe all the kind heady brahs moved on to spread the sacrament, and generally shit all over the Phish tour or something. Don't know, don't care.

As for "shows", they are still going, small but strong.

 

[B9]

Mostly a just bunch of people who brought a lot of bad publicity to the scene, did not even go into a lot of the shows and sold doses to finance travelling around.

..................

 

[fastandbulbous]

I really disagree with you here. I've always been told that at super-high doses, receptor saturation is somehow overcome

Overcome receptor saturation?! Was this from somebody with a pharmacology/biochemistry background or someone who's eaten a lot of acid? I'd say almost certainly the latter (if it's the former, them they need to do a little refresher reading as they're talking bollocks)

 

[Ness]

Sigh. Bad wording. By "overcome" I mean that the fact that the appropriate 5-HT receptors one normally associates with LSD's subjective effects are saturated, that fact is irrelevant because, whatever the MOA, the subjective effects are increased anyway.

 

[Pimp Lazy]

It's not 5ht that you associate with LSD's normal effects. Even if LSD does interact primarily with 5ht (which it does not). We need something that doesn't go against what we already know. LSD is a chemical. LSD is not magic. I wish it were but alas it is not. But I had this friend whose brother turned into a glass of orange juice once... cough cough...

You keep repeating the same thing which to me looks like someone who has their pride on the table and refuses to accept truth. But that is not important and if my observation is true it is for you alone to accept and deal with. I do not care except that it might help you in life. You're wrong. We already know it. Move on.

I want to meet the bastard who has eaten enough huge doses to be able to differentiate. I've eaten LSD 200 times maybe? I've had identical number of doses from the same well-laid paper affect and effect me in highly different ways. Given that there are so many variables that determine subjective effects, that it is impossible for the chemicals to produce a different effect (at 1.5mg apparently), it seems impossible differentiate the effects of say 300mg of LSD (assumed thumbprint dose) and 1.5mg except for duration. Certainly the length of a 300mg trip might bring some PTSD into existence as I can imagine that it would be stressful to trip that long. But that is inherently chemical. The brain is a physical organ. I'm comfortable and confident saying I don't believe in the existence of a soul. As far as I know souls don't think and what people describe as their souls are emotion. Without a brain you wouldn't be able to know you had a soul. The Ego is a machination of processes that occur before you (the Ego) are even aware of it. It's been shown with f-PET scans. Your brain basically reports to you what it is doing and you then have a thought. We are all collections of predetermined genetics and basic chemical processes. Oops... about to start a huge off-topic ramble. So I'll stop.

Peace,
PL

 

[tobala]

Overcome receptor saturation?! Was this from somebody with a pharmacology/biochemistry background or someone who's eaten a lot of acid?

No, F&B, it's from the pink and purple faeries in green booties who make the magick dust that shows us there's more to the universe than tunnel-vision science... :D

 

[swilow]

I really disagree with you here. I've always been told that at super-high doses, receptor saturation is somehow overcome and the subjective effects DO increase. Why, exactly, this is I don't know, but as anyone who has taken a Thumbprint and they will tell you that it isn't the same as a 1.5mg trip only longer.

After you've saturated 5HT receptors/subtypes, LSD affects dopamine and histamine. These, particualrly the latter, are not associated with psychedelic effects. Then again BOL is a strong 5HT2a agonist with little psychedelic effect. 'Overcoming' saturation would be like over-filling a full glass ie. impossible- however, the 'spill' creates its own effect. Just not much.

Ness, have you had very high doses? They become increasingly 'samey' after a point, and I've had a highest dose of about 700ug.

Sigh. Bad wording. By "overcome" I mean that the fact that the appropriate 5-HT receptors one normally associates with LSD's subjective effects are saturated, that fact is irrelevant because, whatever the MOA, the subjective effects are increased anyway.

I think that when people speak about 'subjective effects' increasing, I personally believe that higher doses cause more 'amnesia' leading one to RELFECT back and think thatm you were 'the Void' blah fucking blah.

 

[Ness]

I haven't had very high doses, yet. I'm going off of what I've gathered from the experiences of others, and based on the experiences of others, extremely high doses (thumbprint) DO have stronger or, at least, very different subjective effects than what is normally considered a high dose.