Kratom The Kratom Megathread

[whiteroom67]

Does anyone have a scientific explanation of why the depression is so crippling, especially in the post-acute stage of withdrawal, during Kratom withdrawal? I'm going through it right now and it sucks, and it's taking forever to go away. I'm on day 10. The Wellbutrin is losing its initial flair after day 7 here and I'm starting to feel the depression, apathy, lethargy and anhedonia underneath it again. A scientific explanation translated into laymen's terms would be best. I tried googling but couldn't really find much on it. I'm really just wondering why the depression from Kratom seems so much worse than from regular opioid withdrawal.

Thanks in advance to anyone who knows

 

[Privateer]

Does anyone have a scientific explanation of why the depression is so crippling, especially in the post-acute stage of withdrawal, during Kratom withdrawal? I'm going through it right now and it sucks, and it's taking forever to go away. I'm on day 10. The Wellbutrin is losing its initial flair after day 7 here and I'm starting to feel the depression, apathy, lethargy and anhedonia underneath it again. A scientific explanation translated into laymen's terms would be best. I tried googling but couldn't really find much on it. I'm really just wondering why the depression from Kratom seems so much worse than from regular opioid withdrawal.

Thanks in advance to anyone who knows

It's a great question. Depression is a characteristic of opioid withdrawals but kratom seems to have the ability to induce transient depression even in the absence of opioid-like withdrawal symptoms, and more strongly than opioids of comparable strength. To answer this question we have to look at both anecdotal and scientific sources, I think, because in vivo studies aren't so hot yet with M. speciosa.

Kratom (aside from its opioid properties) seems to have some sort of additional antidepressant property. This could be due to a metabolite or a component of the plant, and could be due to direct or indirect action. I would most strongly suspect antagonism of kappa-opioid, agonism of delta-opioid, or antagonism of NMDA, but some sort of indirect serotonergic activity isn't out of the question. It also appears that this component has a longer half-life than the opioid molecules in kratom, which would cause the additional withdrawal after the worst of the opioid w/d is done (and makes the first couple days off surprisingly easy).

In your case, Wellbutrin will be beneficial for the opioid withdrawal but perhaps not so much for the longer kratom withdrawal overall. What you're experiencing is not quite a post-acute withdrawal IME. I've found in the past that ondansetron and/or phenibut/baclofen work very well for getting off kratom. I wish you the best of luck whiteroom. You should take solace in the fact that you're well over the hump and that 14-20 days is the point at which it generally gets much better.

 

[whiteroom67]

It's a great question. Depression is a characteristic of opioid withdrawals but kratom seems to have the ability to induce transient depression even in the absence of opioid-like withdrawal symptoms, and more strongly than opioids of comparable strength. To answer this question we have to look at both anecdotal and scientific sources, I think, because in vivo studies aren't so hot yet with M. speciosa.

Kratom (aside from its opioid properties) seems to have some sort of additional antidepressant property. This could be due to a metabolite or a component of the plant, and could be due to direct or indirect action. I would most strongly suspect antagonism of kappa-opioid, agonism of delta-opioid, or antagonism of NMDA, but some sort of indirect serotonergic activity isn't out of the question. It also appears that this component has a longer half-life than the opioid molecules in kratom, which would cause the additional withdrawal after the worst of the opioid w/d is done (and makes the first couple days off surprisingly easy).

In your case, Wellbutrin will be beneficial for the opioid withdrawal but perhaps not so much for the longer kratom withdrawal overall. What you're experiencing is not quite a post-acute withdrawal IME. I've found in the past that ondansetron and/or phenibut/baclofen work very well for getting off kratom. I wish you the best of luck whiteroom. You should take solace in the fact that you're well over the hump and that 14-20 days is the point at which it generally gets much better.

Yeah I have definitely heard of Kratom having antidepressant properties... it's weird though because the type of depression experienced upon withdrawal isn't the same as say coming off of an SSRI or MAOI or NDRI or whatever... so what the hell kind of antidepressant mechanism is it lol... I should mention that this time around at least I used Kratom to get off of oxy, so actually even at day 10 I am still getting some minor, albeit infrequent, chills and restlessness here or there. Phenibut I have, and use, and works awesome, the only problem being I can only use it 3 days at a time and then need 3 days off because that is addictive too. I've actually been swapping/alternating between 3 days gabapentin, 3 days Phenibut, and 3 days Valium, along with the Wellbutrin, which I really want off of, so as to avoid dependence on any of them. It's interesting that you mention ondansentron since that is a Serotonin 5-HT3 Antagonist I believe usually used for nausea and vomiting... that would really work for Kratom withdrawal related depression though? I never heard of that before. Yeah I'm about to be in day 11... it just sucks bc I feel like I can't do anything "recreational" for the holiday weekend... after I'm through this, some occasional use isn't out of the question for me... I just feel like I can't do anything now halfway through withdrawal and on this Wellbutrin crap... just no more oxy... ever. That's when I got myself into some shit with Kratom... and besides, my bro is keeping my Kratom stash hidden anyways

The Wellbutrin did give me the energy to be able to function at work though during the past week, I'll give it that.

 

[krock619]

ive had an oz of maeng da from a good source that i learned about from here. they seem very professional and this is all they deal in, they are located in Texas. anyways...i have yet to take it and i just dont know where to start. i dont mind just swallowing it. i tasted it and its nasty but not intolerable. i take 25g of norco (3x daily)..just as a referrence of my tolerance. should i start at 1 teaspoon full? how many grams is roughly in a teaspoon? i know, random kinda vague questions but i just dont want to end up sick. i got kids an cant afford that. thanks for any help

 

[whiteroom67]

ive had an oz of maeng da from a good source that i learned about from here. they seem very professional and this is all they deal in, they are located in Texas. anyways...i have yet to take it and i just dont know where to start. i dont mind just swallowing it. i tasted it and its nasty but not intolerable. i take 25g of norco (3x daily)..just as a referrence of my tolerance. should i start at 1 teaspoon full? how many grams is roughly in a teaspoon? i know, random kinda vague questions but i just dont want to end up sick. i got kids an cant afford that. thanks for any help

You know it's hard to say; I have introduced my 150 lb 17 year old brother to Kratom and he required a HUGE, heaping teaspoon of great quality Maeng Da to feel any effects, and feel "good", with literally ZERO opiate tolerance. My uncle who weighs way more, with a SLIGHT opiate tolerance felt barely anything from the same, and my cousin who weighs less than my uncle but more than my brother, and with NO opiate tolerance, felt barely anything from that either. Yet my brother's friends, same age as him, guys and girls, none really weighing too much, also with ZERO opiate tolerance, got great effects from a slightly rounded teaspoon or so each, which is around 5 grams more or less, and had quite the party that night (basically ending in a Greco-Roman style fuckfest... and no I was not involved).

I have also, on the other hand, introduced my 220 lb 27 year old male coworker (w no opiate tolerance) to around the same or even slightly less amount, and he got sick and projectile vomited continuously 3 or 4 hours during a certification class (what a fun night). I also introduced my other female coworker (age upper 40's, and has kids also - no opiate tolerance) to an even less amount (slightly less than a level teaspoon, maybe around 3-4 grams), and the same happened to her, vomiting in the ACME parking lot after leaving work 2 hours late because she was afraid to drive, and then passing out at 7:00 once she got home - everyone in her family wondered what the hell was wrong with her. She never told them though .

I started by taking an average of about 5 grams of Bali and felt great, other strains felt great too, including Maeng Da, and I had an 80 mg oxy per day habit up to about a month before trying Kratom for the first time. So it's hard to say. My best advice would be to start low and see how you feel, maybe a half teaspoon, or 3 grams, and work your way up. You can always take more next time, but you can't take less once you down it. I mix mine in with a little bit of water to make like a "paste" and then I pour orange juice in, stir it around and chug, on either an empty or sort of empty stomach. I will usually take some magnesium with it too. Just start low and work your way up would be my advice.

 

[krock619]

thanks for the reply. its crazy how the doses vary. a few times ive scooped out a teaspoon and stared at thinking..ok, am i gonna take this or not. i always say..nahhhh and pop my norco. i want to start taking kratom like 3 out of 7 days and mix in the norco ont he other days so i make my script last longer. i hate running low and freaking out. if i do take the teaspoon should i wait like 5 to 6 hours before trying another dose? thanks again for the advice. i appreciate it

 

[whiteroom67]

Well the major effects of Kratom can last anywhere from 3-6 hours, depending again on individual chemistry. Waiting 5 to 6 hours would be a safe bet, but then again your tolerance may already be a little higher for it at that point... or maybe not lol. Tolerance seems to rise fast, even by the second day in a row, there can be a noticeable difference.

 

[Snake_Eyes]

For what's worth I'm 135-140lbs with about a 40mg hydrocodone tolerance and even with taking kratom 3-4 times a week (on average) I can still feel 4 grams, I typically take 4-5 grams. A level non packed measuring teaspoon is 2.5 grams give or take 100mg.

 

[sekio]

If you have a scale, weigh out 5 grams (maybe 3 level teaspoons) and add it to a cup of boiling water, make a tea out of it for ~20 minutes, then drink it slowly over about half an hour and stop when you feel good.

Kratom can vary in density pretty widely. If you don't want to get sick, you really have to weigh your doses and know your limit. Go slow if you don't know what that limit is

 

[eeevilgenius13]

Hello everyone. New here. I am currently on day #7 of bupe withdrawal after being on subs for just under one year. I was a formerly heavy IV heroin user, but I haven't used anything but my prescribed bupe in a year. I'm being forced to get off them due to legal complications. I know from experience withdrawing from both methadone and bupe in the past that these long-acting opes are horrible to WD from because it is just such an endless, exhausting, and depressing process. I'm currently functioning daily only with the help of about 25-40 mgs of loperamide, but my question is this: I ordered some Indonesian Kratom to (hopefully) assist with the symptoms of depression and lethargy that loperamide isn't addressing. I did my research, but all reports were massively conflicting as I tried to suss out the best type of kratom to use for this process. I did use a very reputable company, but I'm hoping to garner some testimonials or opinions on the usefulness of Indonesian kratom for bupe withdrawal, specifically for the aforementioned symptoms? Thanks in advance.

 

[whiteroom67]

Well strains from Indonesia do tend to have slightly more energetic qualities in general... but this can be really subjective and really what you want to look for is whether it's a red, green or white vein strain. The white veins offer the most energy and also usually the most euphoria, the red veins are the most sedating and relaxing - and better for pain, and green veins tend to be somewhere in the middle, so I would go with either a green or white vein variety. Green veins for me though tend to be the least euphoric, but again, very subjective. White veins also kick in faster, but end faster too. Red veins take a little longer to kick in, but not much, and tend to stick around in your head longer, maybe by like an hour or so. And, green veins are usually somewhere in the middle, with the exception of Green Malay which can last up to 8 hours in the uninitiated. And yet, there are still those who don't really notice all that much of a difference between them. I personally do, but my brother doesn't, and many others don't either. Some notice simply a difference in taste, but not effect (like my brother), or vice versa. Like sekio said above, density can vary too between strains, so it's best to have a scale of some sort.

Also, is it just regular Indo, or is it "Super Indo", or even "Ultra Enhanced Indo" (UEI)? This will make a HUGE difference in the nature and intensity of the effects experienced. My personal suggestion and advice: stay stay from Ultra Enhanced Indo, any of the enhanced leaves, extracts, or full-spectrum tinctures. They are super addictive and at that point you would really just be trading one habit for another... a just as intense AND more expensive one (but legal, most likely, depending on where you live).

 

[whiteroom67]

Also keep in mind that trying to come off of Kratom, especially when using it frequently, in high doses and/or for long periods of time, and even more so to get off of a harder opiate especially, like you are, AND even when using plain leaf, AND even when trying to slowly taper, can still possibly be very difficult, especially psychologically. Again - very subjective. Some people have no problems and the withdrawals are simply a minor annoyance, for others, it can feel unbearable. Just be careful and use the lowest amount necessary if you are really trying to get clean from everything. If you just want to maintain on Kratom and have no intentions of getting off of that, then I guess don't worry about it so much. Still stay away from the extracts though would be my advice... please heed it.

 

[Mycophile]

I think I'm finally starting to figure out the right doses of Kratom for me and how often to take it and how long before and after food and coffee.

Today's been the most successful day so far and I mixed strains for the first time.

Started the day with 2 1/4 teaspoons of Green Malaysian.

I had found last time that because I drink excessive amounts of coffee and can't wake up without it that I need to have most of my coffee after I take my Kratom because often even a stimulating vein will bring me down and make me groggy if I don't have coffee afterwards when I first wake up.

So I got up and took the Kratom on an empty stomach w/ 1 cup of coffee, waited an hour for it to kick in and had another 2 1/2 cups and then I felt great and full of energy.

I wanted to make myself wait another hour to eat to fully absorb the Kratom but that was a bad idea cause I got really racy so next time I'll eat sooner. After eating it brought me back down again, I got a little tired so had a cup of mixed tea: Yerba Mate and Chamomile both of which I've heard synergize well with Kraotm, and after that I felt GREAT.

Just so relaxed.

A few hours later I dosed again and mixed strains for the first time: 1/4 teaspoon Bali, 1/2 teaspoon Green Malay and 1 & 1/2 teaspoons Green vein Borneo.

Now I'm really relaxed and just stimulated enough without it being too much so I just took another 3/4 teaspoon of Bali and 1/4 green Vein Borneo.

After that kicks in I'm thinking I'll vaporize some Mugwort which I got and tried for the first time last night and then do a few nitrous balloons.

I actually found that the Mugwort DID surprisingly give me a VERY mild high...just nice and relaxed for about 2 hours...hard to say what to compare it to.

I was hoping it would give me weird dreams also cause I've heard it does that, but my dreams were no more abnormal than usual, which is usually pretty abnormal cause of all the melatonin I take.

I put some of the Mugwort in my pillow to breath it in while sleeping but it didn't have any effect.

After I get the scale I ordered like Sekio suggested I'm thinking that I'll get even better at finding the right dosages for the best effects.

I also ordered some Red Vein Borneo, White Maeng Da and a "Brown Vein" which the vendor said he created by putting a red vein through a fermentation process so that it feels more like a white vein, so now I'll have some different veins to experiment with and mix.

Also bought some Klip Dagga to play around with which I'm hoping will have mild weed-like effects which is what I've heard.

 

[Berdo tm1]

Ive been concerned by ppl saying that they prefer this to heroin. This worries me like having been told you should meet someone and they are really nice people but then finding out they are good friends with hitler and the 3rd reich boys. Does that suggest it can be as strong as heroin and as hard to quit? Ive read some ppl say its even harder to quit.

 

[lolwhatzdrugs]

Ive been concerned by ppl saying that they prefer this to heroin. This worries me like having been told you should meet someone and they are really nice people but then finding out they are good friends with hitler and the 3rd reich boys. Does that suggest it can be as strong as heroin and as hard to quit? Ive read some ppl say its even harder to quit.

LOL what? Does this happen often

If kratom was anywhere near the potency of heroin, heroin would be out of a job. It's not by any measure as strong as heroin (as in potency by weight). As for subjective effects I'm sure there are people who like it more, but that doesn't mean it is stronger. It's an opioid, but a short lived one, I doubt it's harder to quit then a good dope habit, but it may be just as hard as any other similar duration opioid once you're dependant on it.

 

[I B Profane]

UGH.

So I'm almost 90 days clean from all forms of opiates (76 days to this date actually, but who's counting.) I figured I'd celebrate with a bit of kratom, while I no longer use heroin or pharmaceutical opiods, I still get down with the naturals (namely kratom and PST) but like I said I haven't experienced anything resembling an opiate buzz in a long time. I figured I'd earned myself some kratom, so last night I tried to order 100gs of Maeng Da...

...only to find out that, within the past ~90 or so days, kratom has been made illegal in my state!! <---how I feel right now. Maybe this is God telling me "don't do any more opiates, srsly" but COME ON, I finally get clean from the really hard shit and now I learn that the ONE opioid that I made an exception for, I won't be able to get! I'm not fucking with the darknet over kratom. Even the headshops have stopped selling it, I remember buying some from a certain place just months ago...

And the thing is, I'm not even mad because I personally wanted to use kratom. I'm REALLY mad because this new law fucks over the people who need it! I don't "need" opiates, as in I no longer have a physical dependency, but so many opi heads who were maintaining off kratom are probably gonna go back to dope now sad.

This has also got me scared for when they (inevitably) make etizolam illegal. Here's hoping when that happens I'll have enough to taper myself off with, or I'm in for a WORLD of hurt. Fuck these ass backwards Draconian laws, mutter mutter mutter

 

[Berdo tm1]

That might just be cos most street junkies arent aware of kratom not that it isnt as good. I guess its weaker from what Ive read but the issue still stands that its like a distant relative of hitler so still carries his evil genes.

LOL what? Does this happen often

If kratom was anywhere near the potency of heroin, heroin would be out of a job. It's not by any measure as strong as heroin (as in potency by weight). As for subjective effects I'm sure there are people who like it more, but that doesn't mean it is stronger. It's an opioid, but a short lived one, I doubt it's harder to quit then a good dope habit, but it may be just as hard as any other similar duration opioid once you're dependant on it.

 

[Mycophile]

Ive been concerned by ppl saying that they prefer this to heroin. This worries me like having been told you should meet someone and they are really nice people but then finding out they are good friends with hitler and the 3rd reich boys. Does that suggest it can be as strong as heroin and as hard to quit? Ive read some ppl say its even harder to quit.

Dude, look at the person who made that comment and my discussion with them.

I was surprised they said it but then they explained themselves afterwards and said it's because they used to be on heroin and had such a high tolerance that it would only get them high for half an hour and then they'd feel sick all day until they shot up again and they liked Kratom better because it doesn't have all the side effects heroin has they don't have to worry about feeling sick all day because it helps with their withdrawals.

It was entirely coming from the perspective of a heroin user who likes it better because it has none of the negative effects heroin has.

And yes, it is a VERY distant cousin in the sense that it's an opioid and works on the same receptors in the brain, just like Codeine, Oxycodone, Hydrocodone, Morphine, etc, except it's not an actual opiate because it doesn't come from the poppy plant like those do.

 

[Berdo tm1]

Kava kava is looking prohibitively expensive now Ive been researching more, kratom seems like great bang for your buck- but at the price of the risk of addiction.

Myco, have you found yourself feening for it in the days you have off or it isnt on your mind? Or just like alcohol where you'd just think now and then that you might fancy it but its not pervading your every thought?

 

[whiteroom67]

I for one fiend on the days I am off of it. Even after being clean from it for several weeks. My brother on the other hand, not so much.

Trust me dudes and dudettes, it may not be as bad or debilitating as a heroin habit, but if you let yourself get into it for long enough, eventually you WILL find yourself wanting more and more. Unless you are the type of person that can handle pretty much anything and not be addicted. I do know a few select people who can actually do roxies like once a month and have been maintaining that frequency for years. But those people are few an far between. Chances are you aren't one of them. In a way, Kratom can be MORE addictive in some certain respects, simply because of the fact it is so easily obtainable and seems so benign.

"Kratom's not a drug! You ever suck some dick for Kratom?!" - Bob Saget (alt.)