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The idea of being "CLEAN" - How do you define it? (Poll, but please reply too!)

1,2,3,4?

  • 1

    Votes: 12 17.4%
  • 2

    Votes: 15 21.7%
  • 3

    Votes: 33 47.8%
  • 4

    Votes: 9 13.0%

  • Total voters
    69
Alot of people in AA / NA would say you are not truly sober. However, for myself I have stopped drinking, using heroin, coke, cannabis etc.... I am on bupe from my doc for a 'disease' i have, and getting outside help is expectable... I am taking it as prescribed, its no different then being on antidepressants for example.

No addict behaviour or mind altering is taking place.... for me i am clean and sober today.

I think the sober/ not sober debate is closely related to "is addiction a disease" question. Interestingly, two thirds of Bluelighters responded in a recent poll that addiction is NOT a disease. I personally do not think it is helpful to view addiction as a disease. To me it's a cop out in order to avoid taking personal responsibility for the choices we make. If you think addiction is a disease and suboxone is just another prescription like an anti biotic, no wonder you'd think yourself sober. Isn't Suboxone supposed to be for a taper, not maintenance? If you are taking narcotics as prescribed for pain, that is one thing, but if you're taking narcotics for "maintenance", you are just postponing the day of reckoning, which certainly beats uncontrolled drug abuse.........but to equate it with taking anti-biotics? Please.
 
Khan, I believe he said anti-depressant, not antibiotic. Studies have shown suboxone to have anti-depressant properties. It depends on how you define sober. Interesting thread. I really don't know if I can honestly form an opinion on how I feel.
 
The medical community defines it as such... a disease... just beacsuse BL members make a vote doesnt make it so, its labeled what its labeled.

"A disease is an abnormal condition affecting the body of an organism. It is often construed to be a medical condition associated with specific symptoms and signs.[1] It may be caused by factors originally from an external source, such as infectious disease, or it may be caused by internal dysfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases. In humans, "disease" is often used more broadly to refer to any condition that causes pain, dysfunction, distress, social problems, or death to the person afflicted, or similar problems for those in contact with the person."

never the less, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
Just because something is initiated by self-infliction (meaning you needed to psychically be the one to, in this case, consume the drugs to begin with) doesn't mean it's not a disease. And, Kush is right.. various medical groups such as The National Institute on Drug Abuse and The American Society of Addiction Medicine (among others), define addiction as a chronic disease. It doesn't mean personal choice is absent, mind you... there is definitley choice involved and the disease explanation shouldn't be used as a cop out, but according to the medical community... drug addiction isn't simply a matter of just "choosing to use or not". While that is a compenent.. there's much more too it. Hence the in depth studies done on the brain and body that resulted in the decision to categorize addiction as a disease, because it wasn't always so.
 
I think so. You're definitely 'clean' in my most humble opinion.

Define sober.

Does bupe "GET YOU HIGH'?

Addiction according to most professionals is a disease, and many of them are wayyyy more qualified than we are to make that call.

Just because something is initiated by self-infliction (meaning you needed to psychically be the one to, in this case, consume the drugs to begin with) doesn't mean it's not a disease. And, Kush is right.. various medical groups such as The National Institute on Drug Abuse and The American Society of Addiction Medicine (among others), define addiction as a chronic disease. It doesn't mean personal choice is absent, mind you... there is definitley choice involved and the disease explanation shouldn't be used as a cop out, but according to the medical community... drug addiction isn't simply a matter of just "choosing to use or not". While that is a compenent.. there's much more too it. Hence the in depth studies done on the brain and body that resulted in the decision to categorize addiction as a disease, because it wasn't always so.

Incredibly well said.
 
Having been around AA and NA for over 15 years, and putting together a few rather significant periods of sobriety, I'd have to say one is not "sober" if on suboxone, whether prescribed or not. My reasoning is simple.

First, we all know that opiate withdrawal isn't going to kill you, and subs are really just a way of avoiding the inevitable, and you're simply moving on to functioning as a productive person without really detoxing. One day you're going to want to stop, and that shit is going to suck. I don't think it has much to do with being high, as it does having to take a drug to feel normal. It's NOT an anti-depressant, and it's not treating a mental illness. If you want to take the position that it's "treating" addiction, fine, but I still don't agree one is really sober if you're treating addiction in this manner.

Don't get me wrong, bupe is a wonder drug. It helped me go from banging 30+mg of dillies a day to complete sobriety with VERY mild withdrawal symptoms. I took 12mg a day for a week, then 8mg a day for half a week then jumped. It was incredible, never experienced such a mild detox in my life. IMO this is how bupe should really be used, as "maintenance" is really just pushing off the pain, and the longer you're on it, the longer the detox will be, and who the hell wants a long drawn out detox??
 
You are more nearly sober and better off on suboxone than heroin or oxycodone, but no, not sober enough to please the NA crowd.
 
I scrounged up a 2mg sub this morning.... Let me brief you on my experience. On and off again user of any narc. Including oxy hydro h fent. Didn't matter. I found a good connect on 30's progressed to 200 to 300mg daily. Pretty much cost me everything. I woke up in july and decided to quit and wtf. Never thought of the withdraw consequences. I went cold turkey and suffered for 20 days felt almost ok and fell back in. I have been on this vicious cycle of using for a few days and going back cold turkey because I strugle with that 3 day hump. Which leads me to this morning. I got a sub dosed and WOW is all I can say. I have read many topics on bup pros and cons. Have been scared on many levels. I was broke today and if I had the cash I would have coped. My lack of funds attributed to getting this sub from a friend; I think its the tool to help me balance out. I will say im not high but im as close to feeling normal as I've been in a while. I think that tapering my use back and not doing anything for the past couple days helped as well. I just wish I had a few more as back ups. I don't know how long this relief is going to last but im grateful for every second.
 
Subs arent purely to push back the WD symptoms as a poster above said, they also help to curb the cravings which is what puts us back on the hamster wheel.

Im on methadone and, disagree with it if you will, consider myself clean. Within 9 months I have reenrolled in college and am just finishing up the semester next week, working a normal job and not on the streets, not engaging in reckless behavior or going in and out of jail like its a revolving door, my appearance has improved dramatically, and I am self aupporting.

My lifestyle is normal and I attribute it all to methadone. I believe everyone has their own definition of clean, but to me its abstaining from using your DOC while improving your quality of life.
 
^That really is it.
On Sub I hold down a well paying 50 hour a week job, I pay my bills, I take care of my responsibilities and my loved ones, etc, etc.
On dope you can take all those positives and reverse them 180.
The Sub fills a hole in my head. A gap, a need to fix and get that fix. Without Sub I'm not fixed. I NEED something. If I shoot up on Suboxone it's just a occasional luxury.
Am I sober by definition? No. Do I give a fuck? No. I am happy with myself this way and feeling pretty good that even after near a decade of heroin addiction I'm still maintaining on Sub.
Happiness I care about. The approval of some douche at NA? I don't give a fuck. Truly.
Those people always crack me up. Bitching about people's maintenance and how it's just a addiction swap, all the while they're chain smoking and guzzling coffee....
 
That's funny .. I agree, one of the main reasons that I avoided sub is that in a NA meeting I was told that I would be trading addictions and if I was to go the sub or don rout I would not be clean. Out of desperation I did 2mg of sub. this morning and the relentless craving left my energy level was tolerable. I didn't get it the right way.. I got it while on the hunt for my DOC. I couldn't find anything this morning and when I say I was desperate I mean it. I was to that point. I am looking for a suboxone doctor tomorrow. For the first time I feel like there is hope. That hole in my head was filled for a moment. I dont care if they think im clean or not, today I lived what I consider a normal life. I didn't think about getting or using. I actually spent time with my wife. Not sick or obsessed. This may be a false hope or dead end, all I know is I had a good day. Suboxone at just 2mg held me pretty stable today.
 
I just consider it being on subs. If someone that knows about my drug use asks me how I'm doing, I just tell them that I haven't gotten high in X amount of days, and that I've just been chilling on subs. I just got off the subs though since they numb me too much and I only wanted to use them for a 2 month taper.

I don't think so. Being on suboxone really fucked up my emotions, motivation, intelligence and general health. It was no different than dope in the sense that I couldn't do any strenuous exercise and my appetite was nonexistent. I weighed 130 lbs at 6'4" when I was on suboxone, and emotionally I was stuck in the same state of mind I was in when I was using dope.

There's 3 advantages that suboxone has over dope:

1) It's legal
2) It's cheaper than dope
3) Your supply is constant; other than your monthly doctor appointment and pharmacy visit you don't need to spend any energy trying to cop

For a lot of people that means they can live a functional life while on suboxone and there's nothing wrong with that. But you're deluding yourself if you think you're sober on suboxone. It's an extremely strong drug, much stronger than antidepressants even, and no matter what your tolerance is it's still numbing your emotions. Go 3 months without it and I guarantee you will have to deal with feelings you haven't felt in years. Go 6 months without it and you will see huge, positive changes in your personality.

I agree. I'm not saying that it's wrong to take subs just because I don't consider it to be clean. I think a lot of people need subs to help them make the first step towards kicking opiates. Once you get off the subs though, you'll definitely realize why people say that being on them isn't really considered being clean.

I understand if it helps with cravings or potential relapse and you're not abusing them then that's great but do you really consider that sober?

I agree.

Having been around AA and NA for over 15 years, and putting together a few rather significant periods of sobriety, I'd have to say one is not "sober" if on suboxone, whether prescribed or not. My reasoning is simple.

First, we all know that opiate withdrawal isn't going to kill you, and subs are really just a way of avoiding the inevitable, and you're simply moving on to functioning as a productive person without really detoxing. One day you're going to want to stop, and that shit is going to suck. I don't think it has much to do with being high, as it does having to take a drug to feel normal. It's NOT an anti-depressant, and it's not treating a mental illness. If you want to take the position that it's "treating" addiction, fine, but I still don't agree one is really sober if you're treating addiction in this manner.

Don't get me wrong, bupe is a wonder drug. It helped me go from banging 30+mg of dillies a day to complete sobriety with VERY mild withdrawal symptoms. I took 12mg a day for a week, then 8mg a day for half a week then jumped. It was incredible, never experienced such a mild detox in my life. IMO this is how bupe should really be used, as "maintenance" is really just pushing off the pain, and the longer you're on it, the longer the detox will be, and who the hell wants a long drawn out detox??

Pretty much agree with all of this too.

I never got defensive when somebody said that I wasn't clean for being on subs. I just feel that it's way better to just use it for a few months rather than 6+ months since it becomes so hard to get off of, and takes so long to get back to normal after stopping.

The bottom line is that there are significant differences between the two accomplishments, and so the distinction should be made between being completely free of all substances and being on suboxone maintenance.
 
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i think that if one considers addiction a disease, then suboxone or methadone can be considered as being in the same boat as anti-depressants. obviously not everyone is going to agree on that, and the contrasting arguments already put forth in this thread make a lot of sense. regardless of a 3rd party's approval, if someone is legit on subs and it is successfully keeping them away from the illegal stuff, that's gotta be the better alternative. then again, just my opinion ;)
 
^That really is it.
On Sub I hold down a well paying 50 hour a week job, I pay my bills, I take care of my responsibilities and my loved ones, etc, etc.
On dope you can take all those positives and reverse them 180.
The Sub fills a hole in my head. A gap, a need to fix and get that fix. Without Sub I'm not fixed. I NEED something. If I shoot up on Suboxone it's just a occasional luxury.
Am I sober by definition? No. Do I give a fuck? No. I am happy with myself this way and feeling pretty good that even after near a decade of heroin addiction I'm still maintaining on Sub.
Happiness I care about. The approval of some douche at NA? I don't give a fuck. Truly.
Those people always crack me up. Bitching about people's maintenance and how it's just a addiction swap, all the while they're chain smoking and guzzling coffee....

Fully! Why are NAers world-wide chain smokers and chain coffee drinkers ? that seems worse than bupe to me anyway.
 
you can spot an NA meeting a mile away in my city from all the cig smokers congregating outside before and after.
 
A very close friend of mine just switched over to subs after her dilaudid habit spiraled out of control.
I think it was her best move considering her possion. Also as someone who used opiates to self medicate.
Is she sober? No lol and I dont think she sees it that way yet.
 
Well I am most certainly not fucked up on Suboxone. That is not fucked up mentally, financially, socially, or physically. Call it what you want but its a much better situation to be in, so I will take it.

I would say it in our society that it is considered sober. If you are taking a medication prescribed to you (as directed), you are considered sober in this society, so thats how I see it.

And fuck NA, I wonder what is the relapse rate of people going to their meetings and are "sober" compared to those who are not welcome at their meeting because they are "not sober" because they maintain on Subs/'done?
 
If you want to get technical, the textbook definition of "sober" really only pertains to alcohol. You can be be banging dope, but as long as you're not drinking booze, you're sober!

The real term we should be using is drug free. How many of you can claim that one? :)
 
Well I am most certainly not fucked up on Suboxone. That is not fucked up mentally, financially, socially, or physically. Call it what you want but its a much better situation to be in, so I will take it.

I would say it in our society that it is considered sober. If you are taking a medication prescribed to you (as directed), you are considered sober in this society, so thats how I see it.

And fuck NA, I wonder what is the relapse rate of people going to their meetings and are "sober" compared to those who are not welcome at their meeting because they are "not sober" because they maintain on Subs/'done?

So would you consider the people in countries that have heroin maintenance programs that get dosed each day clean? They are not getting high off of it anymore, and it's prescribed to them, so by your rationale that should be considered clean. People on suboxone are also getting a potent opioid daily, although its ceiling affect and the fact that it's a partial agonist make it less euphoric for those with big habits (although many others find it to be very euphoric and some even prefer it over heroin) but it's still an opioid so that's why I don't consider it to be clean, but rather a tool to help you get clean.

Being on suboxone vs being on nothing are very different which is why I can't justify calling it being clean if you're on subs. Also, it would minimize the accomplishment of being off of everything if both of them are considered clean. And if you think you are clean on suboxone then why is the goal to get off of it?
 
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