The Big & Dandy Oral DMT thread (Ayahuasca/Pharmahuasca)

[Tunnelfission]

How long would one suppose that banisteriopsis caapi and psychotria viridis both dry, would last in a cold, dark, dry environment?

i don't mind loss in potency, just the health of the plant matter, if using old stuff (over a year) could make one ill, that is all.

 

[Jblazingphoenix100]

Oh yea it's the DMT that makes you vomit alright (the other stuff doesn't help in a brew though).

I've read people saying that dissolving the DMT in cocacola (phoshporic acid) decreases the nausea. I tried this once but I still threw up. My nausea during a DMT trip is usually brief, very intense and random. Usually I'll just suddenly throw up and then start falling deep into the DMT space.

If you dissolve in OJ, you might as well drink it right? Don't see a point in evaporating the orange juice. Ismene's cocacola recommendation (if I recall correctly) is to dissolve your dose in a pint of coca cola and drink it.

oh yeah true...lol.

 

[yagecero]

Oh yea it's the DMT that makes you vomit alright (the other stuff doesn't help in a brew though).

Actually, traditionally speaking, it's the vine that is responsible for the purge. And as the purge is so important within indigenous cultures, they hold the vine in higher regard than the DMT containing plant that is used to make the brew visionary. It's common to hear people say that they have explored their depths (or the universe) with the chacruna or chaliponga, while having their body cleansed with the caapi. There are also cultures that drink a pure-vine (no DMT) brew that they also call "ayahuasca" (see Ott).

 

[hydrochron]

Ayahuasca

Hey everyone %)

I'm looking for some good Ayahuasca recipes. Also I wouldn't mind hearing a few experiences. I did some searches and only found stuff about smoking dmt, but none about eating.

What are the best herbs to use? A mix of Banisteriopsis caapi and Psychotria viridis looks good. However mimosa sounds more promising now to.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Warped Reality]

If you don't mind, could you explain to me what Ayahuasca is? I've read some stuff that I searched for on google but they don't explain it to well

 

[tycone]

Ayahuasca = solution/brew containing plants that each contain MAOI + ~DMT

 

[shishigami]

Check out the DMT-Nexus, they're the experts on all things DMT.

 

[hydrochron]

So the mimosas plant also has the maoi right? Sorry if that sounds stupid its just a little confusing.

 

[shishigami]

Mimosa Hostilis has DMT.
Typically a ayahuasca brew with Mimosa Hostilis uses B. Caapi or Syrian Rue, although usually the primer, for the MAOI.

 

[Ismene]

Actually, traditionally speaking, it's the vine that is responsible for the purge

But that's because they mix the DMT part and the vine all together and they havn't got a clue which causes the nausea. Although caapi does cause nausea by itself, once you add the DMT you tend to start throwing your guts up.

There are also cultures that drink a pure-vine (no DMT) brew that they also call "ayahuasca"

These cultures probably arn't drinking it for the same reason we are tho. Purging is important to the natives because they are usually riddled with worms and violent vomiting helps them get rid of them. To trip you need the DMT.

And there's some question whether they do call it "ayahuasca" or if that was just the limit of understanding of the translators trying to communicate with them - they might just have said "oh, fuck it, lets call it ayahuasca - that's close enough".

 

[shishigami]

MAOIs by themselves are psychoactive, although they won't make you trip per se. It's recommended that you try just the vine before you try MAOI+DMT.

 

[Ismene]

They're slightly psychoactive but nothing to compare to a real trip like DMT. If you close your eyes and concentrate really, really hard you might notice a few colours way, way back in the darkness. That's about it.

They also have lousy side-effects like nausea.

The DMT is the thing that's worth experiencing. The MAOI is just a route to allowing that orally. I prefer moclobemide for the least nausea.

 

[hydrochron]

Is there a good way to minimze the nausea associated the the Rue seeds?

 

[TheAppleCore]

The DMT is the thing that's worth experiencing. The MAOI is just a route to allowing that orally.

This may be true for you, but it definitely doesn't apply to everyone. The reason most ayahuasca recipes call for MUCH more Caapi than needed for full MAO-inhibition is that the synergy between the psychoactive effects of BOTH the harmaloids and the tryptamines is often said to be more powerful / healing than simple oral tryptamines alone.

As far as I've read, the most common method of calibrating ayahuasca dosage is to drink Caapi tea until intoxicated to the point of seeing visions on the vine alone (!) and then to begin carefully sipping a chacruna / chaliponga / mimosa brew.

 

[DwayneHoover]

Yes, I too have read AND EXPERIENCED that the Harmine/Harmaline combination in Rue is quite significantly psychoactive on its own (and it gave me and none of the several friends I have given MAO-inhibiting doses of it to, ZERO nausea and ZERO headache.)

Ismene gets an a-typical intense nausea and splitting headaches from Rue seed, so his opinions about Harmine plants as being totally useless and pointless on their own, are really not pertinent. OF COURSE he finds them pointless... he has a bad physical reaction to them. And as usual he casts his own personal subjective ideologies as objective facts of Science.

To say "DMT is the only useful thing in the equation" is as AppleCore has astutely pointed out, TOTALLY IGNORANT of the actual history and practice of the Ayahuasca Shamen... as well as totally ignorant of the wide-ranging use in cultures where it is grown and used of Syrian Rue as a powerful and useful consciousness alterant in and of its own accord, used for a variety of of mind-altering purposes.

Ismene's pontifications on this matter are simply factually scientifically and ethnographically erroneous.

 

[Ismene]

To say "DMT is the only useful thing in the equation" is as AppleCore has astutely pointed out, TOTALLY IGNORANT of the actual history and practice of the Ayahuasca Shamen

Except I've forgotten more about ayahuasca shamen than you'll ever know. My knowledge is a little deeper than reading wiki for 2 minutes. And anyone who claims they've experienced "ayahuasca" because they've simply taken the caapi vine is as ignorant as the vendors who claim the vine by itself is all you need.

Look at ayahuasca artwork and you'll see DMT visions not harmaline "visions".

Syrian Rue as a powerful and useful consciousness alterant in and of its own accord, used for a variety of of mind-altering purposes.

Yeah, that's why everyone trips out on Syrian rue isn't it. It's one of the best trips you can ever have. Forget DMT - get yourself some syrian rue and see what a real trip is like eh? Get a grip Dwayne. There's a whole host of shit drugs that have been used for a variety of mind-altering purposes from nutmeg to datura. Being used doesn't make them good.

DMT is the only useful thing in the equation

It's not the only useful thing - you need to MAOI to activate it orally.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Yeah, that's why everyone trips out on Syrian rue isn't it. It's one of the best trips you can ever have. Forget DMT - get yourself some syrian rue and see what a real trip is like eh?

The point is that neither the harmala nor tryptamine alkaloids are solely responsible for the most powerful ayahuasca journey -- it is the cooperation between the two. If you know so much about traditional aya curanderos, you must be familiar with the analogy of the Caapi providing the "cave" and the admixture (botanical DMT source) providing the "light", or the torch, with which one can see and navigate the cave. This clearly illustrates the necessity of both, not only pharmacologically, but in terms of tangible, experiential psychoactive effect.

Also, if your only experience with psychoactive MAOI compounds is in Syrian Rue, then it's no wonder you've discounted their importance. Most people find rue very harsh and unpleasant, and of relatively little use in ayahuasca-esque combinations. Caapi is an entirely different story.

 

[PippUK]

In my experience, I have had more hit and miss experiences with Caapi. When I do manage to get it to work, it is preferable to Rue from a physical and phenomenal point of view. However I have found that Rue is usually a more succesful MAOI than Caapi, even though it usually causes some stomach discomfort and the occasional howffing session. Commercial Caapi extracts seem to often not be as potent as they claim.

I usually use a pharmahuasca analog starting with 300mgs of Moclobeminde (Mannerix), sometimes 450, followed by synthed DMT at the one hour mark. I have found that this allows a pretty good experience. There are tricks to enhance your breakthrough. For example, an empty stomach, and a DMT solution with minimal liquid volume, seems to increase absorbtion rate. If the DMT levels in your system rise too slowly, your Rocketship will leave without you! Yes it tastes foul - try to get the shot to avoid your tongue. Plugging a solution can be effective, but you want to aim for a neutral pH or you have a back passage like a gunshot wound.

I acknowledge that this is not a genuine Ayahuasca post. To be honest, I have experienced the brew in an authentic Amazonian setting near Iquitos with a good (as far as I could tell) Shaman who was not just a commercial outfit for tourists. It was a beautiful experience which was meaningful in a personal way, and also from a cultural point of view. However, the stories our Shaman told and his worldview were not always directly translatable into my own life and situation here at home. I am unlikely to have to engage in Shamanic conflict, as a Postal delivery worker.

This is why the Pharmahuasca idea is valid to my mind. It is, obviously a different experience, but I have found that it allows simillar access to levels of the mind that Ayahuasca does. There are millions of variables that come into play in terms of setting. For example, if your mindset is filled with thoughts about authenticity and you are imbibing Ayahuasca with traditional ingredients and ritual, then these factors will shape the way that you interpret the material. Or, if you have just followed a synthetic MAOI with some nice synthed spice, and you have got the latest Flying Lotus LP on the headphones, the you have a wholly different slant.

Moclobemide is relatively easily available, and a rather forgiving, transparent substance, with little dietary complication. I once ate a cheese and marmite sandwich in the aftermath (T+8hrs) with no evidence of serotonin symptoms that I could detect.
There are plenty of reports on erowid which describe interesting experiences with just Caapi or Rue. I recall one described very dimly coloured visuals. I like that description of Caapi as the cave and the DMT admixture as the torch/light.
What a ramble. Your mileage may vary - Peace - Pipp

 

[Ismene]

If you know so much about traditional aya curanderos, you must be familiar with the analogy of the Caapi providing the "cave" and the admixture (botanical DMT source) providing the "light", or the torch, with which one can see and navigate the cave.

Yes but remember just because a "traditional curanda" says it doesn't mean it's true. There's a kind of reverse racism often involved in discussion ayahuasca - that a bloke in the jungle must know more about it than a white man in a city. That's not always true. And if you've ever met a curanda you'll know they can be the nastiest, most unpleasant money-grabbing scum you'll ever meet. Don't always take someones word as divine truth just because he has a bone through his fucking nose. He's just a human being like you and me.


Caapi is an entirely different story.

Tried caapi too. Foul-tasting, horrendous to get down and unpleasant nausea.

I've always thought DMT was so powerful that the MAOI was of minor importance. DMT to me is the most divine thing I've ever experienced. I don't get anything remotely similar out of caapi or rue. Don't you find the same thing?

 

[Ismene]

I am unlikely to have to engage in Shamanic conflict, as a Postal delivery worker.

That's not always the case pipp. So called "shamen" don't have some kind of final say on DMT. It's a human experience which is just as valid for you and me as for some fucking shamen in the jungle running sessions for money. I think westerners tend to have a romantic view of "shamen" that they are the mysterious messengers of divine DMT truth that the white man can never understand. That's not always the case - they may well be guys who run a session then go back to their hut and beat the living crap out of their wives because she hasn't got his dinner ready.