Dissociatives The Big & Dandy Amantadine and Memantine thread
- Thread starter fairnymph
- Start date
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> I think that Olney actually does make some very important
> points when we look at his body of work
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What led you to believe that I think otherwise?
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> I find it hard to see how a scientifically rationale individual
> can dismiss all of his contributions
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All of whose contributions? The only dismissive comments that I can find in my post concern the so-called 'research' of William White.
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> to the study of this facinating molecule
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Which molecule? PCP? Ketamine? MK-801?
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> with such simple blanket statements.
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My 'blanket statements' concern only the poorly argued, poorly conceived alarmism practiced by William White. Dr. Olney's research is perfectly relevant in discussing the effects of NMDA antagonists on rodents, and may or may not be applicable to primates - though thus far, efforts to produce these lesions in primates have not been successful. I don't find that position to be dismissive of Dr. Olney's research, nor do I think that being dismissive of inaccurate statements concerning a drug's dangers is equivalent to stating that said drug is 'safe' to be constantly abused. Whether or not dissociatives cause permanent brain damage, abusing them definitely has a nasty set of side-effects.
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Namaste,
Cliff
> I think that Olney actually does make some very important
> points when we look at his body of work
---
What led you to believe that I think otherwise?
---
> I find it hard to see how a scientifically rationale individual
> can dismiss all of his contributions
---
All of whose contributions? The only dismissive comments that I can find in my post concern the so-called 'research' of William White.
---
> to the study of this facinating molecule
---
Which molecule? PCP? Ketamine? MK-801?
---
> with such simple blanket statements.
---
My 'blanket statements' concern only the poorly argued, poorly conceived alarmism practiced by William White. Dr. Olney's research is perfectly relevant in discussing the effects of NMDA antagonists on rodents, and may or may not be applicable to primates - though thus far, efforts to produce these lesions in primates have not been successful. I don't find that position to be dismissive of Dr. Olney's research, nor do I think that being dismissive of inaccurate statements concerning a drug's dangers is equivalent to stating that said drug is 'safe' to be constantly abused. Whether or not dissociatives cause permanent brain damage, abusing them definitely has a nasty set of side-effects.
---
Namaste,
Cliff
K'dOUTinAZ
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This drug has been approved in America for Alziemers (sp?) disease. I saw it on ABC a few hours ago.
eternalcrux
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K'dOUTinAZ said:
yep i caught that.. Time to go make friends with an alzheimers patient..
psychetool
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BuMp~! Any word on this drug ? Anyone tried it yet ? Any ketamine like effects ?
K'dOUTinAZ
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Somehow it delays the effects of Alziemers by boosting cognitive ability and memory skills I think. Oh ya, it's also in a tablet. ![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
Far as that, I don't know yet about any abuse potential.
Far as that, I don't know yet about any abuse potential.
K'dOUTinAZ
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bouncer said:
hmmmmm....I think it is time to start hanging with Grandma
narrative0
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Sounds like good stuff. Too bad I'll probably never get around to trying it myself.
Evaluation of the reinforcing and discriminative stimulus properties of the low-affinity N-methyl-D-aspartate channel blocker memantine.
Nicholson KL, Jones HE, Balster RL.
Memantine (MEM) is currently in clinical use in Europe for the treatment of various neurological disorders. It is a low-affinity channel blocker of N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors whose voltage-dependent, rapid binding kinetics are believed to limit its phencyclidine (PCP)-like side effects. MEM, and its analog amantadine (AMA), which has also been demonstrated to have some NMDA antagonist activity, were evaluated for PCP-like behavioral effects. The discriminative stimulus properties of MEM and AMA were tested in monkeys and rats trained to discriminate PCP from saline using a standard two-lever drug discrimination paradigm under a fixed ratio (FR) schedule of food reinforcement. In rats, MEM resulted in a dose-dependent substitution for PCP; however, full substitution occurred only at response rate suppressing doses. AMA failed to substitute for PCP at any dose tested. For MEM, all four monkeys showed complete substitution for PCP at doses which did not greatly decrease rates of responding. Conversely, AMA occasioned little or no responding on the PCP-associated level in any of the subjects. Intravenous self-administration of MEM and AMA was tested under a FR schedule of reinforcement in four monkeys trained to lever press for infusions of PCP. MEM served as a reinforcer in all subjects at one or more doses tested. For two of the subjects, at least one dose of AMA maintained rates of self-administration above those for saline. For both MEM and AMA, maximal response rates were considerably lower than with PCP self-administration and both drugs were much less potent in monkeys than would be predicted from rodent studies. The data show that MEM shares discriminative stimulus effects with PCP under these testing conditions, whereas the chemically similar compound AMA does not. MEM also serves as a positive reinforcer in rhesus monkeys, whereas AMA can serve as a weak reinforcer in only some subjects. Both AMA and MEM are reported to function as NMDA antagonists, yet clear differences exist in their behavioral effects with MEM acting more like a PCP-like antagonist. In addition, despite the rapid channel kinetics of MEM's NMDA receptor blockade, it may have some PCP-like abuse potential in humans at doses above the normal therapeutic levels.
Evaluation of the reinforcing and discriminative stimulus properties of the low-affinity N-methyl-D-aspartate channel blocker memantine.
Nicholson KL, Jones HE, Balster RL.
Memantine (MEM) is currently in clinical use in Europe for the treatment of various neurological disorders. It is a low-affinity channel blocker of N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors whose voltage-dependent, rapid binding kinetics are believed to limit its phencyclidine (PCP)-like side effects. MEM, and its analog amantadine (AMA), which has also been demonstrated to have some NMDA antagonist activity, were evaluated for PCP-like behavioral effects. The discriminative stimulus properties of MEM and AMA were tested in monkeys and rats trained to discriminate PCP from saline using a standard two-lever drug discrimination paradigm under a fixed ratio (FR) schedule of food reinforcement. In rats, MEM resulted in a dose-dependent substitution for PCP; however, full substitution occurred only at response rate suppressing doses. AMA failed to substitute for PCP at any dose tested. For MEM, all four monkeys showed complete substitution for PCP at doses which did not greatly decrease rates of responding. Conversely, AMA occasioned little or no responding on the PCP-associated level in any of the subjects. Intravenous self-administration of MEM and AMA was tested under a FR schedule of reinforcement in four monkeys trained to lever press for infusions of PCP. MEM served as a reinforcer in all subjects at one or more doses tested. For two of the subjects, at least one dose of AMA maintained rates of self-administration above those for saline. For both MEM and AMA, maximal response rates were considerably lower than with PCP self-administration and both drugs were much less potent in monkeys than would be predicted from rodent studies. The data show that MEM shares discriminative stimulus effects with PCP under these testing conditions, whereas the chemically similar compound AMA does not. MEM also serves as a positive reinforcer in rhesus monkeys, whereas AMA can serve as a weak reinforcer in only some subjects. Both AMA and MEM are reported to function as NMDA antagonists, yet clear differences exist in their behavioral effects with MEM acting more like a PCP-like antagonist. In addition, despite the rapid channel kinetics of MEM's NMDA receptor blockade, it may have some PCP-like abuse potential in humans at doses above the normal therapeutic levels.
killarava2day
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Dude, this stuff is available on prescription. Believe me, where there is a will there is a way.
K'dOUTinAZ
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Yes, the FDA has already approved for its use in America roughly a week ago.
eternalcrux
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Please someone try it!!! I would but i have no access to it... but im dying to know
gugglebum
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If anyone can PM me a link and if the price is not too high, I'll order some as soon as I leave home (Jan. 15). I would definetly need some RELIABLE dosages though, I don't wanna end up wasting half of it by trying little (safe) bumps before realising the dosage is the same as for Ketamine.
I would definetly want a statue somewhere on this site though
- GuggleBum, always ready to go where no man has ever gone (OK, now where was that boldly part?)
I would definetly want a statue somewhere on this site though
- GuggleBum, always ready to go where no man has ever gone (OK, now where was that boldly part?)
reply
I haven't had any personal experiences using memantine to prevent opiate-tolerance, but it's likely this would be so.
Rather, I used it to attempt to prevent tolerance to amphetamines. This was unsucessful, but I did have a tolerance before I tried memantine, and not after. I think it will work when my tolerance is finally gone.
Anyways, on high doses of memantine, I noted these effects:
Frequent: Increased Strength, Dissasociation, Odd Thought Patterns- sometimes they sound brilliant, but many times they feel as though they're an anxiety reponse- again, I was on amphetamine, which is a sort of counfounding factor.
Not as frequent: Acute psychosis, out of body experiences- I think music sounded strange to me- as though it were data for me to analyze.
Overall, an unpleasant and unproductive experience.
I believe there may be action at other receptor sights which mediate the rewarding properties you're no doubt searching for.
-James
I haven't had any personal experiences using memantine to prevent opiate-tolerance, but it's likely this would be so.
Rather, I used it to attempt to prevent tolerance to amphetamines. This was unsucessful, but I did have a tolerance before I tried memantine, and not after. I think it will work when my tolerance is finally gone.
Anyways, on high doses of memantine, I noted these effects:
Frequent: Increased Strength, Dissasociation, Odd Thought Patterns- sometimes they sound brilliant, but many times they feel as though they're an anxiety reponse- again, I was on amphetamine, which is a sort of counfounding factor.
Not as frequent: Acute psychosis, out of body experiences- I think music sounded strange to me- as though it were data for me to analyze.
Overall, an unpleasant and unproductive experience.
I believe there may be action at other receptor sights which mediate the rewarding properties you're no doubt searching for.
-James
lazyvegan
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..so how much did you take exactly during your 'high' doses.??.which route of ingestion..???..
..also how long after you started taking the amphetamine before you dosed with the memantine?..i ask this because i have personally long since sworn off taking psychedelics/dissacociatives after being up for a few days on meth (which i have sworn off anywayz)...i have had many bad , horrible, or at least completly bizzare uncomfortable wierdo trips using this combo..and i rarely have bad trips, so i wonder how the meth may have affected your experience with it..
..again i (and i believe i speak for many others) would be 'very' interested in hearing anything more about experiences with this substance..i find it funny that on the manufactuers insert, they say there shouldn't be any problems if you take too much, yet they also specifically say not to take in combination with ketamine/dxm, ect...and hallucinations were reported with a small percentage of the research group at medicinal doses..
..i dunno, from what i understand this drug has more potential for treating the symptoms of this disiese than anything else on the market..perhaps that is why the fda, ect, have overlooked the fact that it is so closely related to other more commonly used items in the psychedelic underground..i mean dxm is a cough suppresant like no other ya know...and commonly available...
..also have you tried ketamine or other similar drugs, and how do you think the overall feel of the memantine experience compared to them..i mean you describe OBE's, dissasociation, music sounding wierd, ect so i gotta ask..
..also interested in the receptor site comment..could play a role...will check your link..hmmm...more..anything..MORE..!!!
..also how long after you started taking the amphetamine before you dosed with the memantine?..i ask this because i have personally long since sworn off taking psychedelics/dissacociatives after being up for a few days on meth (which i have sworn off anywayz)...i have had many bad , horrible, or at least completly bizzare uncomfortable wierdo trips using this combo..and i rarely have bad trips, so i wonder how the meth may have affected your experience with it..
..again i (and i believe i speak for many others) would be 'very' interested in hearing anything more about experiences with this substance..i find it funny that on the manufactuers insert, they say there shouldn't be any problems if you take too much, yet they also specifically say not to take in combination with ketamine/dxm, ect...and hallucinations were reported with a small percentage of the research group at medicinal doses..
..i dunno, from what i understand this drug has more potential for treating the symptoms of this disiese than anything else on the market..perhaps that is why the fda, ect, have overlooked the fact that it is so closely related to other more commonly used items in the psychedelic underground..i mean dxm is a cough suppresant like no other ya know...and commonly available...
..also have you tried ketamine or other similar drugs, and how do you think the overall feel of the memantine experience compared to them..i mean you describe OBE's, dissasociation, music sounding wierd, ect so i gotta ask..
..also interested in the receptor site comment..could play a role...will check your link..hmmm...more..anything..MORE..!!!
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