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Dissociatives The Big & Dandy Amantadine and Memantine thread

Right, right .. I realized I erred a while later, but alas, a warning had already shown up in my inbox.

Anyway, what I should have said was:

If you are interested in ordering this chemical, search google for it. Several european websites will allow you to order it without a prescription. From one supplier, *********, the price is 190 euros for 50 10mg tablets. Reasonable for research purposes, I guess.

This chemical is also listed in "this is your brain on dissociatives" under the prescription dissociative heading.

if anybody orders this chemical, i would be very interested in seeing a FAQ with relative recreational doses etc.

edited: no dancing around source names, either - atlas
 
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K was at first supposed to be neuroprotective, etc. but that was sort of ruled out by willy white, if you believe him. I think he has a few good points.

I would be suprised if a K analog could compare to the amazingly weird K hole. Ya cant beat K! dont even give me that dxm crap, haha.
 
CC, I am not kidding but to tell the truth, I have just begun larger research into ketamine. I have on and off researched it for years, but since I got a bottle recently I read the William White stuff... and he is a scientist or researcher unlike any of us (i assume). It seems like everyone is in denial that dissociatives will harm the brain. They may not, but I think theres a good chance they do.

Those assumptions are supposedly through research in animals and some in humans. Haven't you ever heard of DXM messing up people that abuse it? And I knew someone personally that used to do K all the time, he has schitzophrenia and other problems now.

I think there is no completely safe dissociative. When I do K, i take vitamin C and a small pinch of xanax to go with it, just in case willy is right. Couldn't hurt. Moderation is one of the keys to safe drug use too, whether it is K or this stuff I just heard of,Memantine.

Well I am off to IM 80mg of K. If anything interesting happens I'll write up a TR.
 
Symmetrical Daze said:
It seems like everyone is in denial that dissociatives will harm the brain. They may not, but I think theres a good chance they do.
Click to expand...
I believe there is a good chance too, but I also believe WW's shit, namely "this is your brain on dissociatives", is garbage.

Symmetrical Daze said:
Haven't you ever heard of DXM messing up people that abuse it?
Click to expand...
Yes. DXM is not ketamine.

Symmetrical Daze said:
And I knew someone personally that used to do K all the time, he has schitzophrenia and other problems now.
Click to expand...
Are you implying that the schizophrenia was caused directly by ketamine? I do not believe that. Indirectly, maybe. Any psychedelic drug has the potential to bring out pre-exsisting psychological problems.
 
Sirs i dont mean to be snooty but could we please get back on topic?

I agree with fairnymph, someone needs to try this stuff and report back, ITS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO THE BL COMMUNITY, KTHX.
 
MOD's NOTE: You can not discuss pooling money to buy drugs. What's wrong with you? I can't believe you didn't know that would be against the rules.
 
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> K was at first supposed to be neuroprotective
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No, all NMDA-antagonists have neuroprotective properties.
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> but that was sort of ruled out by willy white
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No. Dr. Olney established that NMDA-antagonists can cause a specific form of neuronal injury at specific doses in rodents. This does not alter the fact that they also have neuroprotective properties at other doses.
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> if you believe him
---
I do not.
---
> I think he has a few good points.
---
I do not.
---
> I would be suprised if a K analog could compare to the
> amazingly weird K hole. Ya cant beat K! dont even give
> me that dxm crap, haha.
---
Actually, I like DXM better than K.
---
Namaste,
Cliff
 
---
> I have on and off researched it for years, but since I got a
> bottle recently I read the William White stuff...
---
New Stuff
---
> and he is a scientist or researcher unlike any of us (i assume).
---
You assume incorrectly.
---
> It seems like everyone is in denial that dissociatives will
> harm the brain.
---
How can we be in denial about something we don't have adequate information to make pronouncements about one way or another? It used to be maintained that LSD HAD to cause brain damage, both because of the intensity of the experience, and long-term personality changes observed in users.
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> They may not, but I think theres a good chance they do.
---
Personally, I suspect that moderate users of dissociatives have a better chance of dying in traffic than of developing Olney's Lesions.
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> Those assumptions are supposedly through research in
> animals
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Rodents. Thus far, these lesions have not been demonstrated to occur in primates.
---
> and some in humans.
---
No credible evidence of the existence of permanent brain damage in humans seems to exist at the moment.
---
> Haven't you ever heard of DXM messing up people that abuse it?
---
I've heard of LSD and pot messing up people that abuse them.
---
> And I knew someone personally that used to do K all the time,
> he has schitzophrenia and other problems now.
---
I know someone personally who dipped tobacco and who killed himself. Therefore, I conclude that dipping tobacco causes you to kill yourself.
---
> I think there is no completely safe dissociative.
---
There are no completely safe drugs, nor completely safe experiences, for that matter.
---
> When I do K, i take vitamin C and a small pinch of xanax to
> go with it, just in case willy is right. Couldn't hurt.
---
The Xanax most likely further impairs memory of the experience.
---
Namaste,
Cliff
 
Ah, Cliff, this is certainly off-topic but I love to see your biting posts here. They have a certain William White and RFG aggression to them.

The "innocent until proven guilty" approach to dissociatives, DXM especially, is a dangerous one. While we have only anecdotal evidence to show lasting impairment, and you seem to have escaped this impairment, these peoples' experiences have merit by mere virtue of being the only data available.

> Haven't you ever heard of DXM messing up people that abuse it?

Yes, there are acid burnouts. Yes, there are marijuana burnouts. I think it should be fair to say though, that never before have tarded teenagers appeared in the numbers they do with DXM. Of course, none of this can be proven, only related on internet forums. I wish I had been logging my life before I used DXM (but the trip report format started my journaling days). I wish I could have taken a before and after snapshot of the FIRST USE. It screamed BRAIN DAMAGE. Danger, Will Robinson, danger.

Alas, it seems like certain people are immune to permafry (like you), if not many or perhaps even most. But those that aren't feel it hard.
 
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joking (see: sarcasm) about legally purchasing non-scheduled drugs? there is nothing criminal about these activities that weren't planned. alas, this is wasting board space. i think my posts are better suited to boards with less restrictions on message content. sorry for polluting the forum with criminal activity :-/

>How much of this stuff would be needed for a recreational dosage????

The point, n2ofiend, is that this is not known. Ordering this drug from a european supplier with some pooled money ;-) [mod note: sarcasm] is perhaps the only way to find out. entrez-pubmed says nothing of memantine overdose.
 
Personally, I suspect that moderate users of dissociatives have a better chance of dying in traffic than of developing Olney's Lesions.
Click to expand...
The chance of dying in traffic can be considerably high, depending on where you live, ask anyonewho lives near Queens Blvd, lol.

The "innocent until proven guilty" approach to dissociatives, DXM especially, is a dangerous one.
Click to expand...
I stongly agree with this.
 
pyr0tix said:
there is nothing criminal about these activities that weren't planned...i think my posts are better suited to boards with less restrictions on message content.
Click to expand...

It is however a violation of the rules of Bluelight. If you have a problem with it, don't post here anymore.
 
Walkaway said:
---
> K was at first supposed to be neuroprotective
---
No, all NMDA-antagonists have neuroprotective properties.
---
> but that was sort of ruled out by willy white
---
No. Dr. Olney established that NMDA-antagonists can cause a specific form of neuronal injury at specific doses in rodents. This does not alter the fact that they also have neuroprotective properties at other doses.
---
> if you believe him
---
I do not.
---
> I think he has a few good points.
---
I do not.
---
> I would be suprised if a K analog could compare to the
> amazingly weird K hole. Ya cant beat K! dont even give
> me that dxm crap, haha.
---
Actually, I like DXM better than K.
---
Namaste,
Cliff
Click to expand...

I think that Olney actually does make some very important points when we look at his body of work - I find it hard to see how a scientifically rationale individual can dismiss all of his contributions to the study of this facinating molecule with such simple blanket statements.

I have stated this before but we really need to make sure that we are properly defining the term "neuroprotective" before we start throwing it around and applying it to any molecules. The complicated dance that is played out by our neurochemistry cannot be accurately addressed in such one dimentional terms. It is quite possible for a molecule to be both neuroprotective by one mechanism and neurotoxic by another, depending upon what parameters we chose to measure and over what period of time. If a study is only looking at one endpoint, then we are getting a very limited snapshot of what is actually going on.

I am glad to see that others are seeing through the "innocent until proven guilty" mindset, as it is a very dangerous one. We can sit here all day and throw around theories as to why a molecule might be harmful, theraputic or neutral but the bottom line is that we are not even close to having all the answers. We need to see a lot more work done in this area, especialy looking at long term chronic administration before we start making statements about safety. Doing so beforehand represents a leap of faith over what could be described a very deep and dark abyss.

I personally reserve such leaps of faith for matters of religion, not science.

SG
 
The complicated dance that is played out by our neurochemistry cannot be accurately addressed in such one dimentional terms. It is quite possible for a molecule to be both neuroprotective by one mechanism and neurotoxic by another, depending upon what parameters we chose to measure and over what period of time. If a study is only looking at one endpoint, then we are getting a very limited snapshot of what is actually going on.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this, look at basic things like pseudoephedrine- it surpresses breathing but raises your heart rate because it affects the soft tissue of the lungs and the heart muscle completely different. I'm sure the govn't will market it, a lot .. like phen phen (ex) then realise its not the miracle drug it was intended to be.
 
This doesn't relate to the "recreational" use of memantine but may be pertinent none the less. From today's UK Guardian:
_______________________________________
Adverts for Alzheimer's drug 'are misleading'

A pharmaceutical company is accused of making false promotional claims for its drug for Alzheimer's disease, by stating in its adverts that patients who take it may avoid the need for nursing care.

Lundbeck, the manufacturer of the drug memantine, which is sold under the brand name Ebixa, should retract the claim made in its medical journal advertisements, says the Consumers' Association publication Drug and Therapeutics Bulletin, published today.

The Bulletin says there is no scientific evidence to prove that patients with Alzheimer's put on the drug will be able to live independently for longer.

"On published evidence, memantine produces, at best, only a small reduction in the rate of deterioration in global, functional and cognitive scales in such patients," it says.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1063813,00.html
 
I never advocated an 'innocent until proven guilty' approach. Regardless of whether or not dissociatives cause permanent brain damage, they can cause nasty cognitive impairments for many people if abused, and to my mind these should not be disregarded simply because they are reversible deficits (funnily enough, my paper on Erowid that I linked to takes the same position). The overhwelming majority of dissociative users do not seem to develop any permanent problems related to their dissociative use. That's about the best statement of safety I can make. Beyond that, abusing dissociatives can fuck you the fuck up. Best to exercise caution - and I don't recall ever advocating that anyone do otherwise.
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Namaste,
Cliff
 
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