The banning of drug paraphernalia - harm minimisation or maximisation?

[spacejunk]

^ the idea?
i'd say political point scoring, revenue raising, stigmatising groups of people for the sake of being "tough on drugs". strange as it might seem to most of us, this can play quite well to large parts of the community. call me a cynic, but you're right - it's not going to stop anybody taking drugs. it just means they use makeshift paraphernalia.

from what most people are saying, it is still possible to buy smoking implements (sorry - oil pourers) in most australian states. this is probably because it is not worth the police time in attempting to enforce the change of law - ie it was self-enforced by retailers.

if the laws are on the books however, all it would take would be a politician needing some 'favourable' publicity and all of the "oil pourers", "potpourri warmers", "herbal incense" and other mislabeled products to be tested against the legislation in a court of law.
i think it is complacent to think that the label on a product changes its legal definition. especially when terms like "bath salts" - and the purpose behind such BS terminology are well known and all over the media.

it saddens me to see australia going backwards into this reactionary crap when so many other western nations are moving away from it.

 

[gimpan]

^ But the point is that regardless of whether a few sensible people use materials that wont breakdown there is still going to be a large number of people using less than safe materials, and if a ban on bongs leads to decreased availability then it follows that more people will make homemade bongs, many of them using unsafe materials, and thus increasing the overall physical harm being done to the Australian cannabis smoking community.

I don't know how rigorously bongs on the shelf have been tested but it seems logical to me that they are made from materials that are generally considered safe for the purpose. They have done a number of studies comparing the damage caused by bongs to joints and pipes and stuff, surely if there were some sort of by products being produced in the smoke through commercial bongs then this information would of been released. When there are materials safe to smoke out of I don't see why a reputable bong manufacturer would skimp out on dangerous materials and potentially face epic law suits down the line.

Yeah I understand your point, but the majority of bong smokers ive known have only used an al-foil cone piece as an abosolute last resort.
As for the stem I really cant see the problem using hose every now and then when most other pipes are arnt available.

When you think about it the most importent part of the bong is the cone piece, and when you think about how simple it is, it would be near impossible to ban.
If you want a surgical made bong employ the skills of a fitter/turner to knock you up a stainless piece of art!

 

[drug_mentor]

Im not really sure as to why the big fuss about bongs being banned and etc, should just pick up a very nice vape. So much better in terms of effectiveness and health. Comes in handy when u have some hash, dmt or even some crack

I think the main difference would be that one can pick up a decent bong for one tenth the price of a "very nice vape", which are typically fucking extortion. I have never used a vape myself, but literally countless of hardcore stoners (particularly bong smokers) that I know have written them off as less intense and less satisfying than smoking bongs. Even if you don't subsribe to the fact that vapes are less satisfying than bongs, any realistic person that has much insight into the wider Australian cannabis scene is going to realise that most people don't only not see the point in using one, but have never bothered to try one. Whether or not these overpriced contraptions are still available (which is currently questionable!) there is still going to be a much larger amount of people using bongs, and if they can't acquire them legally the chances are that they will be fashioned out of less than safe materials... In terms of BL atleast, that is what the "big fuss" is about...

@ gimpan, I guess you know smarter stoners than I do, a manufactured conepiece has ALWAYS been preferable, even in an otherwise homemade bong, but alfoil has been an almost universal first resort when lacking a real conepice in my 10+ years of smoking with a pretty damn wide social group over the years.

 

[gimpan]

Youre absolutly right about weed smokers blowing vaprisors off as useless(no pun) and I tend to agree that they are disappointing.

The bottom line is with any positive there is allways going to be equal negative. I think thats law. You want to enjoy altered conciousness? unfortunatly there will always be a price to pay.

 

[spacejunk]

^ i sure hope not. just because the previous ~80 years have been lived in drug prohibition, doesn't mean things won't ever change. i think we've seen massive changes to the drug market globally in the last 3 years, but australia - typically - is way behind the times. i just don't get why throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s we could walk into a shop and buy a smoking implement, but come the second decade of the 2000s and we can't? madness, if you ask me.

i think the disappointment with vaporisers that heavy smokers have is that it doesn't have the same effects profile that they are used to, so they don't register as being "stoned". it takes about 5-10 minutes to come on, for me, and it's a different stone; more like hash or something.

when i first started using vapes i had a lower tolerance to the previous 5+ years, and it blew my mind. i was way higher than smoking had gotten me in years. i think if you smoke all day, every day, your experience may be different.
no turning back for this stoner...shitty to have to run the legal risk of acquiring one though. they should be the state-sanctioned method IMO.

 

[tyrael]

.....I can't really see how these laws work, because when i do a google for any of the drug paraphernalia mentioned in SJ's OP I can find all of it from online shops here in Aus. From meth pipes to bongs to vapes and loads more things....I haven't checked physical shops....

Paraphernalia laws are based on knee-jerk emotional reactions instead of scientific research, much like the rest of the failed war on drugs. The research shows that allowing paraphernalia and needle/pipe exchanges is of tangible benefit to society from the HR side......

And this,

....To me, it makes no sense, and as many have brought up, goes against HR. To me it seems like a measure to appease the masses and I think that this is probably its main purpose. I don't think anyone who puts a modicum of thought into this would believe it actually helps reduce drug use, but it looks good to the general public.....they give the appearance of being tough on drugs but involve the most minimal of efforts....

As others have stated, it is a typical, "been done before and will be again", "make it look like we're [sic: Government] is doing something", band-aid-approach! Although I do know (personally) that there are many people on "that side" who in fact do want to try to reduction addiction rates/help those with an addiction/give good/sound/accurate information! It's unfortunate that those either of power/"high up" (no pun intended ) or setting legislation are the most vocal. As I'm sure others would agree, they (mostly, often) take the wrong path for either approach - education, dx, tx, etc.!

.....I thought what you said regarding the availability of needles but not pipes etc was really interesting Spacejunk. It is a ridiculous double standard, even though I doubt many of us still believe there's any concession to rationality or logic in the law makers of today. I suppose the threat of HIV of hep c is enough to scare people into seeing needles as the lesser of two evils, especially considering that these diseases can then be passed on to 'innocent' (in other words, non drug using) people. Because I think that sadly, for many people, harm reduction for drug users is a joke, because drug users 'choose' to use drugs, and thus choose the harms, so if they want their harms reduced, they should just stop using. ...

(Unfortunately I guess) I agree! Again education - to the law makers (silly or unhelpful laws). to the users (HR/HM), to the general populous (say you said, scaring people because apparently all/most drug users have an infection/are "scum" -_-). It's a general mentality that if something (drugs and/or addiction for instance) doesn't directly effect oneself....it's not true of course!....and hence why should they bother thinking/worrying (or god forbid) helping others in said situation(s).

....I don't venture into head shops much these days, but I had a frustrating experience recently where the staff in a shop defensively refused to answer any questions about a product they were selling....

Other than product (and hence ingredient) what information could/would they really be able to provide for you? I could probably count my number of times - every time I found their general drug/substance knowledge not any better than that of the general public, let alone know anything about their product!

...The legislation banning drug paraphernalia encourages this obfuscation, but it ultimately puts naive people at risk while they make money out of it.
Arguably, too, it is the blatant marketing tactics and positioning of these kinds of stores that lead to the knee-jerk bans in the first place.
Chicken or egg scenario I guess....but I just hate seeing people sell drug related stuff in an apparently legit store with not even a vague attempt at providing safety advice....simply cashing in while they can with no regard for the consequences...So we continue to be treated like children by government who overhype the dangers of "bad drugs" while people still get away with selling random powders with no dosage advice or info at all to help people stay safe. ....

While I'm generally not one to get on a "Nanny-state"/Government-bashing bandwagon, (and not in relation to self interest!) As i've stated, I do agree with basically what you've said spacejunk!

This is a great thread with heaps of useful information and opinions in it. This is why I am glad Spacejunk is a mod:....Thanks to you two.....

Suck up Jks!

....'m not proud to admit it, but I think that the time to hide things away has passed, and I must confess that I have struggled privately with mental illness since my mid-teens....As I say, it's not easy to admit this stuff because I'm not proud of it, but I think the time has come for me to make this journey a shared one. Hopefully it will benefit others in some way....

Although I think your story (of mental illness and the trouble seeking relief, etc) is sad, does sound tough and albeit unfortunately not all that rare on BL, it is a good sign that you're able to essentially take a step back and see things as they are. That is, the use is no long in control? I think once one cannot do this, it's a period where things often get significantly worst. -_-

 

[tyrael]

^ i sure hope not. just because the previous ~80 years have been lived in drug prohibition, doesn't mean things won't ever change. i think we've seen massive changes to the drug market globally in the last 3 years, but australia - typically - is way behind the times.....

Having said that, Australia's ORT treatments are actually quite good! (I guess little influence considering it is just one drug though ).

In terms of my how I've been effected by said laws, more or less not at all! I think maybe a fair bit of it would come down to the old "who you know" too but!

Also Spacejunk (and others) have made some really good points re the effects on HM, switching the DOC and method of use! Somewhat analogous to the availability (or lack of) of needles and it's effects (reused of old ones, par-taking in riskier behaviours, etc)!

.... the laws are on the books however, all it would take would be a politician needing some 'favourable' publicity and all of...

*sigh* that this is a cause for change is legislation - some politician with (often) absolutely no knowledge regarding anything associated with drugs (or medications!), addiction/use, demographic/users, public/health policies, nor the influences/effects they have on the country/state/town/population!

 

[spacejunk]

Other than product (and hence ingredient) what information could/would they really be able to provide for you? I could probably count my number of times - every time I found their general drug/substance knowledge not any better than that of the general public, let alone know anything about their product!

This may be the case much of the time, but I've had friends that have worked in head shops with decades of experience with drugs, countercultures and medical work. I've known ex-nurses that have worked in head shops, and people with a huge diversity of backgrounds.
Having said that - like every profession - there are a bunch of morons that work in these joints too. I would specifically single the chain-store bong shops out in this regard. The ones that do body piercing....not cool IMO.
They give drug paraphernalia peddlers a bad name (literally).

 

[gimpan]

^ i sure hope not. just because the previous ~80 years have been lived in drug prohibition, doesn't mean things won't ever change. i think we've seen massive changes to the drug market globally in the last 3 years, but australia - typically - is way behind the times. i just don't get why throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s we could walk into a shop and buy a smoking implement, but come the second decade of the 2000s and we can't? madness, if you ask me.

i think the disappointment with vaporisers that heavy smokers have is that it doesn't have the same effects profile that they are used to, so they don't register as being "stoned". it takes about 5-10 minutes to come on, for me, and it's a different stone; more like hash or something.

when i first started using vapes i had a lower tolerance to the previous 5+ years, and it blew my mind. i was way higher than smoking had gotten me in years. i think if you smoke all day, every day, your experience may be different.
no turning back for this stoner...shitty to have to run the legal risk of acquiring one though. they should be the state-sanctioned method IMO.

Australias behind the times? Id say we are much more progresive than most. Yeah a few years ago I was on my high horse championing the benefits of vapes to everyone that would listen but gave up to overwhelming criticism.
I rarely smoke these days because of work piss tests but when I do Id much rather a bong than than a vaporiser.

 

[Fieldy]

Well i've smashed 3 glass bongs in the last 2 and 1/2 years now, damn shame. I now have 3 stems i just use in a plastic bottle I will get a vape when $$$ permits

 

[spacejunk]

Australias behind the times?

Yes, we're "banning smoking paraphernalia", whilst several states in the US are legalising cannabis for recreational use.

 

[Fieldy]

^ I also love the hit from a bong, so I'm still on the fence about the high's for a vape as I have never used a vape before though, so i don't know how it is different. I would love to see weed legalized like Colorado for small amounts of possession would be a good step in the right direction

 

[spacejunk]

I would happily never smoke a bong again in my life now that I have a kick-ass vape.
Thoroughly superior way of toking if you ask me. Safer, smoother, tastier, more efficient (spent herb = edibles).
I guess some people are set in their ways, and it doesn't bother me...but Australia's cannabis culture really is decades behind that of north America and certain parts of Europe.
....especially on the legislation front.

 

[drug_mentor]

I definately agree that Australian cannabis culture on the whole is pretty unsophisticated. I was having a few brews at a mates place this afternoon when my usual dealer rocked up and had some pretty nice smoke so I decided to buy some even though I am well stocked, anyway my friends kept pressuring me to smoke with them when eventually I caved in and agreed I would if we rolled a spliff, I was promptly informed there were no rolling papers! In a house full of bloody stoners you would think there would be a single leaf to skin up with but no... On the plus side it did deter me from smoking when I shouldn't of been.

My whole social circle smoke cannabis every single day in life and all of them practically refuse to use anything if its not a bong. Even if they just picked up an ounce they would rather smoke out of a shitty plastic bong than to roll a nice joint or even smoke a pipe. They also all exclusively mix their weed with tobacco (although I admittedly am guilty of this too, its a shitty thing to start but hard to stop doing when you are used to it) and would never consider not. I also firmly believe that chronic smoking of tobacco through a bong takes a horrible toll on your respiratory system, which is pretty sad because it means most Australian pot heads are considerably increasing the harm of consuming this otherwise relatively benign drug.

Even though I smoke bongs every day I do concede they are pretty gross and to me its sad that 99% of smoking in this country revolves around the filthy things. It isn't as though other parts of the world don't smoke bongs but it just seems to me there is a serious lack of appreciation amongst Australians when it comes to consuming cannabis any other way.

 

[gimpan]

Id disagree with Australia being unsophisticated when it comes to cannabis, unpretentious maybe but I think thats a good thing, what I dont want is the commercialisation of cannabis.

I am by no means a heavy smoker (maybe once a month) but looking at the weed situation in this country its pretty clear to me that were not an anti drug country. I like the fact that the majority of smokers grow or know the grower of the weed they purchase.

 

[drug_mentor]

I guess we move in pretty different circles gimpan but I wouldn't say most smokers grow or know the grower. Sure, I have known plenty of growers over the years but I have still bought a shitload of weed where I didn't and I would say most people I know are the same. The cops wouldn't keep making large busts if all the weed being sold was by small to medium size growers... I guess with your once monthly intake it might be feasible, but with more than a handful of years of daily use under my belt it would be impossible for me to have sustained that habit purely through my contacts I knew who grew or even to have grown myself in the circumstances I was in.

I don't see whats unpretentious about milking bong after bong just because its the most economical, if anything, I find there is this macho dicksizing bullshit associated with it where people claim only bongs get them stoned because they are such a big smoker etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate bongs, and as I pointed out earlier I am being somewhat of a hypocrite because I do smoke bongs every night mixed with tobacco, but just the lack of people even having an open mind to consuming cannabis more than just the one way is pretty boring and a shame in my opinion.

 

[spacejunk]

I like the fact that the majority of smokers grow or know the grower of the weed they purchase.

you really think that's true? I know its practically impossible to get reliable information to back up these sorts of claims, but I think you're dead wrong.

it depends on way too many factors to make such a big call. Your circle of mates might be tight-knit and open about these kinds of things, but it is clear that huge commercial operations supply a lot of smokers with bud too.
How many 16 kids who live with mum and dad and smoke behind their back know the grower that keeps them in smoke? Very few, I bet.

This existence of a commercial cultivation industry is undeniable; it is fairly discreet, profitable, and the necessary precursers are a cinch to procure legally ans locally. A dream for organised crime. not all cannabis is grown on a small scale - backyard homegrown exists too, but when you see those suburban houses that operate purely as a hydro professional grow-ops are probably just the 'tip of the iceberg; the few that get busted. And this is without even mentioning large-scale outdoor grows - those cats are highly unlikely to be boasting about their exploits and preferred grow spots to all their mates down the pub.

Incidentally, I happen to know a lot of the people that grow the pot I smoke ( even if it is a rarity nowadays) but I really don't think this applies to all Aussie stoners, unless you are lucky, in the game yourself, some other kind of privileged position, or you don't smoke enough to keep drawing out new supplies from acquaintances and middle-man (or women ) all the time.
It's nice to know and trust your grower; but it's a luxury most of us don't have.

Agree with what drug mentor said about the machismo factor, and think it is pretty preposterous to equate "sophiatocated" with "pretntious". I'd say you're either being defensive or making an argument for the sake of it

Fact of the matter is that this "oil pourer" nonsense is childish (and insulting of our intelligence; especially compared to the forward steps taken in cannabis culture in canada and an increasing amount of states in the US).
progressive states in america now have "legal" dispensaries, whilst we've been stripped of the privilege of buying a purpose-built bong - all in the same 5 year period. Seem a little skewed to anybody else?

Personally I think it reflects on australians' substance use more broadly (ie motive = get fucked up on whatever is at hand ASAP) which is why I prefer weird drugs I can procure through non traditional means where possible.
We're getting pretty badly off topic here, but I think the "sophisticated"/"pretentious" of smoking weed (not talking about other drugs in this instance) are often safer and becoming increasingly inaccessible to australian users - further increasing the risks to our health, further marginalising us as a community, rather than making cannabis smokers the normal, harmless and generally otherwise good contributing members of society I think we are.

 

[Stevenski]

I hope I don't smash my glassie. Just a simple single chamber but I never liked D/C's or anything fancy. I like my bong hits to have a certain degree of "harshness" & I will nearly always prefer to rip cones. That said a nice spliff is fun to share with friends.

 

[ugly]

I haven't been able to read this whole thread yet.

I'm not in Australia.

Did someone already post about smoking bud using an apple?

Once you get the hang of making an apple into a pipe, it works extremely well.

Not as well as a beautiful water pipe with ice chambers and all that but I broke the best water pipe in the world. It was precious to me and had cost me a bundle. I replaced it six months later and I had it for one day. One fucking day. I get clumsy when I'm uber stoned.

Now when I see a well lit display case full of sparkling new water pipes of every possible size and with every possible tricked out chamber, I just sigh. They are works of art. They truly are.

I would love to have a jaw dropping glass piece. But I'm a glass dropping jawpiece.8)

 

[Stevenski]

Did someone already post about smoking bud using an apple?

Once you get the hang of making an apple into a pipe, it works extremely well.

Apple bongs were good for school. I could hit the pipe in the playground walking a lap of the oval. You could also make Artline pipes if you had a cone. Probably not HR but desperate times call for desperate measures.