thestudent14
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Thats a great post Spacejunk
The banning of drug paraphernalia - harm minimisation or maximisation?
- Thread starter spacejunk
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MasterVampire
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Guys just how healthy is a bong made out of a plastic coke bottle, a garden hose but with a proper cone peice?
I only ask because I need a bong but now can't buy one anymore.
I only ask because I need a bong but now can't buy one anymore.
Black Rabbit of Inle
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It's not healthy in the long run. If you are changing the bottle/hose stem when you change the water (as some of my friends do) then it's somewhat better than leaving it all to deform and blacken.
There is no definitive answer, but it's definitely less healthy than a glass bong with a proper stem.
There is no definitive answer, but it's definitely less healthy than a glass bong with a proper stem.
This is a great thread with heaps of useful information and opinions in it. This is why I am glad Spacejunk is a mod: He has not had an easy life but instead of becoming bitter and burned out he uses his experience in a compassionate and constructive way. Footscrazy, too. He and Footscrazy have started lots of relevant discussions with threads like these, and it deserves recognition. Thanks to you two
The thing is, Busty, for some people such as myself it is not complexity which poses a problem or laziness which leads to reckless actions, rather it is desperation. Some people use drugs because they want to enhance their experiences (recreation), but others use them to help deal with circumstances (both internal and external) they can't manage on their own.
I'm not proud to admit it, but I think that the time to hide things away has passed, and I must confess that I have struggled privately with mental illness since my mid-teens. I don't care much for labels as I think they oversimplify and homogenise issues which are individual, but I have experienced depressive and psychotic periods throughout my years, and some of these became so intense that I would take anything to change my inner state - I have sniffed petrol to smash a mind state that was too scary to deal with when I didn't have enough money to buy drugs or alcohol.
I've seen doctors and counsellors and taken different medications, but nobody has really been able to figure it out, and of course I can't figure it out. I'm trying and doing my best, but it's not easy. There have been many times when I recklessly used substances to try and escape from something, and at those times I wasn't considering long-term ramifications. I couldn't have cared less about inhaling plastic fumes or ingesting substances which clashed with each other, because if I hadn't escaped from that immediate state I probably would have done something more drastic and final anyway.
I do care about my health and I'm trying to understand my condition and make it better, but it's a long journey and sometimes I don't have the strength or perspective to look after myself properly. At those times I will use whatever substances and required paraphernalia is at hand, whether it be a clean substance and hygienic implements, or mystery rubbish powder and filthy tools.
As I say, it's not easy to admit this stuff because I'm not proud of it, but I think the time has come for me to make this journey a shared one. Hopefully it will benefit others in some way. And that's why these threads are important: They deal with issues which are meaningful to the community and pave the way for improved conditions in the future.
The thing is, Busty, for some people such as myself it is not complexity which poses a problem or laziness which leads to reckless actions, rather it is desperation. Some people use drugs because they want to enhance their experiences (recreation), but others use them to help deal with circumstances (both internal and external) they can't manage on their own.
I'm not proud to admit it, but I think that the time to hide things away has passed, and I must confess that I have struggled privately with mental illness since my mid-teens. I don't care much for labels as I think they oversimplify and homogenise issues which are individual, but I have experienced depressive and psychotic periods throughout my years, and some of these became so intense that I would take anything to change my inner state - I have sniffed petrol to smash a mind state that was too scary to deal with when I didn't have enough money to buy drugs or alcohol.
I've seen doctors and counsellors and taken different medications, but nobody has really been able to figure it out, and of course I can't figure it out. I'm trying and doing my best, but it's not easy. There have been many times when I recklessly used substances to try and escape from something, and at those times I wasn't considering long-term ramifications. I couldn't have cared less about inhaling plastic fumes or ingesting substances which clashed with each other, because if I hadn't escaped from that immediate state I probably would have done something more drastic and final anyway.
I do care about my health and I'm trying to understand my condition and make it better, but it's a long journey and sometimes I don't have the strength or perspective to look after myself properly. At those times I will use whatever substances and required paraphernalia is at hand, whether it be a clean substance and hygienic implements, or mystery rubbish powder and filthy tools.
As I say, it's not easy to admit this stuff because I'm not proud of it, but I think the time has come for me to make this journey a shared one. Hopefully it will benefit others in some way. And that's why these threads are important: They deal with issues which are meaningful to the community and pave the way for improved conditions in the future.
cassandragemini
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Good points again space. I totally agree with you when you say the onus is on the end user with legal highs/paraphernalia, the way the market for 'herbal highs' etc seems to work is someone gets a hold of some chemical that isnt yet illegal for whatever reason, sells the shit out of it while they can knowing it won't last and when it ends move onto something else. They know that if they start identifying what is in their 'herbals' that the game is going to be up much quicker so instead they exploit a loophole, like branding it as plant food or something not meant for human consumption and therefore avoiding consumer law, trying to stay one step ahead of regulation. It is a chicken and egg situation, if laws were in place (like they are or will be in nz very soon) that required these companies to declare the contents of what they were pushing with a dose recommendation and safety information then we would be able to safely use them; however no one is willing to tackle this problem yet and even if they did and the contents, by law, had to be taken through the testing that all our other products have to be then we probably wouldn't see any of it on the market for another 5 + years if at all. Even if some sort of testing did happen it would almost certainly make the whole game for the people who are selling this stuff totally pointless, it seems to be about getting rich quick and even if it was possibly worth it it's probably pretty unlikely the government and regulatory bodies would allow the drugs anyway. So it's kind of either take a substance not knowing what it is, what it's dose is or what its side effects are or go without for the user. Sad.
There is kind of an example of all of this with what has happened in nz over the past 10 years with the bzp, tmfpp and for a while bk-MDMA party pills, it's been interesting watching it evolve an progress and seeing the consequences of poor regulation and planning. A guy called matt bowden pretty much single handedly started the party pill scene in nz in the late 90's, he worked with drug researchers and the ministry of health drug policy team and suggested that legal party pills containing relatively safe chemicals should be sold (at his profit) to provide an alternative to meth, which was gaining popularity in nz at the time and ecstasy. I think it started with just bzp and methylone which was taken off the market after about 6 months when the government realised it was an analogue (sigh) and a bit later tmfpp came out (sigh). It went pretty well for about a year but when other companies began to get wind of the massive profits (I think I read somewhere that end user prices could be 300 times the cost of the bulk raw ingredients) it got ugly fast, milk bars and even places like fish and chip shops started selling the pills to anyone who wanted them and I remember a friend buying a pair of jeans from the 'hip' surf shop in Napier and getting a free bzp pill with them, what the fuck. Pretty soon it became a free for all and a whole bunch of specialist 24hr party pill stores opened up all over the country selling a ton of different pills with massively increasing doses of the drugs - I think the first pills out called 'charge' had 80mg of bzp per pill, by the end there were all sorts containing up to 500mg per pill. Pretty much everybody who was partying took 'herbals' (the nz slang term for them) at some point and a lot people went crazy for them as you can imagine, I think one of the main reasons this happened is that it's much more difficult for the average rec drug user to find drugs like e or speed in nz than almost anywhere else in the western world, its also much more expensive and we have considerably less disposible income than australia for example. Lots of people were using them every weekend, id say about half of people I knew used them most weekends, they became a fall back and some people found that they didnt want to just drink when they could take herbals and rage all night. Plus because it was so easy to source them you could be at the pub at midnight, drunkenly decide you wanted one and walk down to a 24hr petrol station where they would be sold. I had a couple of friends who would go through 30 200mg bzp pills in a night, no kidding. Of course then people starting ODing and fucking out on them and the media got hold of it and ran with it and pretty soon it was evident that the whole thing was a total shambles, things were going to have to change and regulation was going to have to be put in place however instead of regulating the market the government, freaking out because of all the bad exposure, made them a class c drug. I never liked herbals at all, bzp and especially tmfpp are dirty as hell and have the worst comedown so it didnt worry me in that sense but just seeing how badly the whole thing was dealt with was a real eye opener for me. I was surprised by how totally disorganised and ineffective governments can be when it comes to setting and implementing policy and regulation and how far behind the 8 ball they can be when it comes to understanding and looking out for the people they represent. To even get into that position in the first place by not setting some kind of regulation on the sale and manufacture of the pills from the start is surprising seeing their hard line policies on other drugs. Seeing how powerless they were when things got really out of hand and how instead of trying to work something out they panicked and just outright banned them was interesting. I think they were made illegal in September 2007 and now they've had some time to figure things out they've changed a few things and decided to allow new drugs to be marketed provided they don't break any existing laws and they go through the same process that all other legal drugs and products for human consumption have to go through. It's going to be interesting to see what happens from now and if anything will actually make it to the market or if this is just another poorly thought drug policy.
There is kind of an example of all of this with what has happened in nz over the past 10 years with the bzp, tmfpp and for a while bk-MDMA party pills, it's been interesting watching it evolve an progress and seeing the consequences of poor regulation and planning. A guy called matt bowden pretty much single handedly started the party pill scene in nz in the late 90's, he worked with drug researchers and the ministry of health drug policy team and suggested that legal party pills containing relatively safe chemicals should be sold (at his profit) to provide an alternative to meth, which was gaining popularity in nz at the time and ecstasy. I think it started with just bzp and methylone which was taken off the market after about 6 months when the government realised it was an analogue (sigh) and a bit later tmfpp came out (sigh). It went pretty well for about a year but when other companies began to get wind of the massive profits (I think I read somewhere that end user prices could be 300 times the cost of the bulk raw ingredients) it got ugly fast, milk bars and even places like fish and chip shops started selling the pills to anyone who wanted them and I remember a friend buying a pair of jeans from the 'hip' surf shop in Napier and getting a free bzp pill with them, what the fuck. Pretty soon it became a free for all and a whole bunch of specialist 24hr party pill stores opened up all over the country selling a ton of different pills with massively increasing doses of the drugs - I think the first pills out called 'charge' had 80mg of bzp per pill, by the end there were all sorts containing up to 500mg per pill. Pretty much everybody who was partying took 'herbals' (the nz slang term for them) at some point and a lot people went crazy for them as you can imagine, I think one of the main reasons this happened is that it's much more difficult for the average rec drug user to find drugs like e or speed in nz than almost anywhere else in the western world, its also much more expensive and we have considerably less disposible income than australia for example. Lots of people were using them every weekend, id say about half of people I knew used them most weekends, they became a fall back and some people found that they didnt want to just drink when they could take herbals and rage all night. Plus because it was so easy to source them you could be at the pub at midnight, drunkenly decide you wanted one and walk down to a 24hr petrol station where they would be sold. I had a couple of friends who would go through 30 200mg bzp pills in a night, no kidding. Of course then people starting ODing and fucking out on them and the media got hold of it and ran with it and pretty soon it was evident that the whole thing was a total shambles, things were going to have to change and regulation was going to have to be put in place however instead of regulating the market the government, freaking out because of all the bad exposure, made them a class c drug. I never liked herbals at all, bzp and especially tmfpp are dirty as hell and have the worst comedown so it didnt worry me in that sense but just seeing how badly the whole thing was dealt with was a real eye opener for me. I was surprised by how totally disorganised and ineffective governments can be when it comes to setting and implementing policy and regulation and how far behind the 8 ball they can be when it comes to understanding and looking out for the people they represent. To even get into that position in the first place by not setting some kind of regulation on the sale and manufacture of the pills from the start is surprising seeing their hard line policies on other drugs. Seeing how powerless they were when things got really out of hand and how instead of trying to work something out they panicked and just outright banned them was interesting. I think they were made illegal in September 2007 and now they've had some time to figure things out they've changed a few things and decided to allow new drugs to be marketed provided they don't break any existing laws and they go through the same process that all other legal drugs and products for human consumption have to go through. It's going to be interesting to see what happens from now and if anything will actually make it to the market or if this is just another poorly thought drug policy.
spacejunk
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wait....how did you know about that?best cut down on the mod love, otherwise they'll form a union, start striking, and demand a raise above minimum wage...![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
Wow your post smacks of arogance, Im pretty sure I didnt say anything about plastic bottles or garden hose. My point is that anyone with an imagination and common sense will know that inhaling burning plastic will not be good for your health, and with that knowlege in mind most people will make a bong with the crucial parts that are exposed to heat will consist of materials that arnt likely to break down under heat.
bunnymunro
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I can honestly say that in all the years I smoked bongs, we didn't give it a second thought...
spacejunk
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^ arrogance? i don't see it.
have you not observed the way homemade plastic PET bottles warp when melted into bongs and repeatedly used?
think of the most filthy, repeatedly used gatorade bottle bong you've ever seen - has it retained its original shape?
some people may make the effort to drill holes in glass bottles...but they'd be the minority, i'm pretty sure - in this country, anyway. i accept that there are definitely safer ways to consume cannabis than to combust it in any sort of bong or pipe - but professionally made bongs are a step-up from crude makeshift billies. that's the point i'm trying to make here.
i think if you're going to say that smoking through soft plastic bottles with holes melted in it is safe, the onus of proof is on you.
drug mentor (to my way of reading it) is saying that it probably isn't safe. not such an outrageous claim, is it?
my understanding of soft drink/water bottles is that they are not designed to be reused - because the plastic begins to break down with continued use, and eventually you end up drinking the particles.
ever noticed how water bottles - if you reuse them a few times - lose the robust structure they have when you first buy them?
think about adding heat to this and consider the breakdown of the plastics that are being inhaled....
have you not observed the way homemade plastic PET bottles warp when melted into bongs and repeatedly used?
think of the most filthy, repeatedly used gatorade bottle bong you've ever seen - has it retained its original shape?
some people may make the effort to drill holes in glass bottles...but they'd be the minority, i'm pretty sure - in this country, anyway. i accept that there are definitely safer ways to consume cannabis than to combust it in any sort of bong or pipe - but professionally made bongs are a step-up from crude makeshift billies. that's the point i'm trying to make here.
i think if you're going to say that smoking through soft plastic bottles with holes melted in it is safe, the onus of proof is on you.
drug mentor (to my way of reading it) is saying that it probably isn't safe. not such an outrageous claim, is it?
my understanding of soft drink/water bottles is that they are not designed to be reused - because the plastic begins to break down with continued use, and eventually you end up drinking the particles.
ever noticed how water bottles - if you reuse them a few times - lose the robust structure they have when you first buy them?
think about adding heat to this and consider the breakdown of the plastics that are being inhaled....
Busty St Clare
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It isn't that hard to find a heat resistant sealant to seat a cone peice on top of. Silicone glues are used to seal around fireplaces and even used around gaskets and are resistant to temperatures up to 2000 Deg. I still argue that the concern about rubber vapour is insignificant compare to ounces of plant matter that you pull through your lungs.
<no sources for anything>
<no sources for anything>
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poledriver
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Why can't you buy one anymore? Search online and there are heaps of places that will sell them to you and deliver to your door. If you can't buy online there are also head shops that still sell them in most major cities I think and also some tobacconists, they will of course most probably not have them on display but if you ask nice enough and they aren't paranoid or up them selves they may sell them to you.
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Captain Brewster
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Not only that, I've heard claims that you shouldn't even reuse plastic bottles for drinking water, something about breaking down of carcinogens.
Busty St Clare
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If you live in the city I wouldn't even breathe the air. Life is a risk, you just have to weigh up how much you like to gamble.
Captain Brewster
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But if you had a choice it would be different.
And the government is making that choice for us, of course we can go make our own type of 'safe' (or safer) bong. But if I'm in a hurry and my glassy just smashed, I'd prefer to head down to my local sex shop to grab a new one, as opposed to going to the milk bar (glass bottle) then hardware store for various solvents, screw around in the shed for a while etc etc.
And the government is making that choice for us, of course we can go make our own type of 'safe' (or safer) bong. But if I'm in a hurry and my glassy just smashed, I'd prefer to head down to my local sex shop to grab a new one, as opposed to going to the milk bar (glass bottle) then hardware store for various solvents, screw around in the shed for a while etc etc.
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spacejunk
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That's bollocks and you know it.
I'm referring to plastics, not rubber.
Of course we are exposed to chemicals and carcinogens on a daily basis in the modern world. This does not mean that we should be deliberately burning shit and sucking it's heated smoke through these carcinogens (ie plastic bottles that are designed to break down) and holding it in our lungs for as long as possible if it can be avoided. You can't eliminate all possibility of harm; that is why we use the term harm reduction, right?
Busty St Clare
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When you weigh up the risks between a whole lung full of smoke vs a small increment of plastic then the difference is vast. You only have to see the black scum sitting around the mouth piece after a single session to realise that all manner of crap still sucks through the water chamber. Ash and plant debris would be my main concern, even if I was sucking through a hose with a hand made foil cone on the end. I'm not saying there is no risk from using a plastic bottle, but apart from creating the stem hole you are hardly heating up this material while smoking a cone.
laugh
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bong a) plastic orchy/gatorade bottle
bong b) tall double chamber
hypothesis; better made bong, more air tight bong, more filtering systems of bong = less harmful effects and possibly less material being used, consumed, burned. money saved can go towards respiratory specialist appointment invoice.
method; lets do a nifty little science experiment by placing a tissue between mouth piece and lips.1. rip from bong a. 2. rip from bong b...notice significantly less scum on tissue i.e. lips/mouth/throat/lungs from bong b...repeat to gather further scientific evidence...send info to Dr Karl for chance to win prize pack.
what are your findings/scientific results/data?
bong b) tall double chamber
hypothesis; better made bong, more air tight bong, more filtering systems of bong = less harmful effects and possibly less material being used, consumed, burned. money saved can go towards respiratory specialist appointment invoice.
method; lets do a nifty little science experiment by placing a tissue between mouth piece and lips.1. rip from bong a. 2. rip from bong b...notice significantly less scum on tissue i.e. lips/mouth/throat/lungs from bong b...repeat to gather further scientific evidence...send info to Dr Karl for chance to win prize pack.
what are your findings/scientific results/data?
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spacejunk
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You're narrowing the subject down to a single homemade smoking device.
What about "bongs" made out of aluminium cans and the like?
There are lots of possibilities people will resort to when they can't buy something purpose-made.
That's the point I am trying to make, anyway.
It's ok, I don't expect you to agree; but if you don't acknowledge that people are likely to take bigger risks if they can't buy drug paraphernalia, then I'm not sure you're being sincere.
Ban my paraphernalia assholes, just try it.
Also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rop27x2mOo
come at me government.