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Terrorist attack on London

^ You obviously haven't read the first page of the thread then :)

By all means it was a tragic event and I feel just as much for the people who died/were injured and the people who knew and were close to them, as any other meaningless death caused for pointless causes in the last few years.

It fucking sucks, but ignoring the underlying issues is only going to lead to more futile blood-letting in the coming years.
 
Sorry lostpunk, I did miss that. My genuine apologies. In which case, you have every right to continue on with your other thoughts on the topic. I have no desire to stifle discussion on this - on the contrary - I just got upset at people who didn't express some sort of sympathy before going on a tirade about the evils of the western world.

We can all spare a moment, surely, for reflection on the mothers who lost their babies a few days ago, before remembering the millions of mothers who lose their babies every day.
 
Firstly,this event is VERY SAD :( and I'm sad for EVERYONE who has been effected badly by this.


Strawberry_lovemuffin said:
enlighten me?
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That's my whole point.This is a complex issue, the way the current federal government is going about this issue,seems to be making things worse.

Violence to combat violence is NOT the answer.

There is no easy answer,but what we are doing clearly isn't working.

The problems have to be looked at.Of course seeing what they EXACTLY are can be easier said then done.

If I had to have a guess,it would be the gap between the rich and poor.The fact,the West exploits the poorer countries to be rich.Of course bombing countries such as Iraq could also help to hate us even more.
 
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lostpunk5545 said:


It fucking sucks, but ignoring the underlying issues is only going to lead to more futile blood-letting in the coming years.
Click to expand...

Exactly my main point.
 
^ totally agree with you as far as the bombing of Iraq goes. I think that was probably one of the worst decisions the "Coalition of the Willing" ever came up with. However, what are our alternatives? Clearly we (the Western world) had pissed off extremists before the Iraq war ever started.

Why is that? Simply because of inequality between nations and money? I really doubt it. There is something else at play here... an intrinsic hatred about our way of life. I believe that extremists (and I'll use that term to encompass any terrorists of any nationality) are irked about the way we live our lives. They don't believe it is "right" or "good" and they have objectified every person who lives in that way to the point that we're not human anymore, simply targets. I really believe it is religiously motivated, not money or power or oil, or anything like that. They believe we are corrupt and greedy and powerful, and they want to bring us down, because of some warped interrpretation of their religious beliefs. Oh yes, and the US (and us) probably haven't helped with our "fight back" policies... but what would you prefer? No display of power, keeling over to their demands?

(I hope you take this all in the friendly manner of debate I intend it to be - no hard feelings whatsover )
 
Strawberry_lovemuffin said:
^ totally agree with you as far as the bombing of Iraq goes. I think that was probably one of the worst decisions the "Coalition of the Willing" ever came up with. However, what are our alternatives? Clearly we (the Western world) had pissed off extremists before the Iraq war ever started.

Why is that? Simply because of inequality between nations and money? I really doubt it. There is something else at play here... an intrinsic hatred about our way of life. I believe that extremists (and I'll use that term to encompass any terrorists of any nationality) are irked about the way we live our lives. They don't believe it is "right" or "good" and they have objectified every person who lives in that way to the point that we're not human anymore, simply targets. I really believe it is religiously motivated, not money or power or oil, or anything like that. They believe we are corrupt and greedy and powerful, and they want to bring us down, because of some warped interrpretation of their religious beliefs. Oh yes, and the US (and us) probably haven't helped with our "fight back" policies... but what would you prefer? No display of power, keeling over to their demands?

(I hope you take this all in the friendly manner of debate I intend it to be - no hard feelings whatsover )
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Some interesting points,but the believing we are 'corrupt and greedy line' would be part of my gap between rich and poor theory.You could probably chuck in the religious part too.As,I said ALL these THINGS need to be looked at.

The "display of power" sadly was agression on OUR part.WE invaded Iraq, and Iraq had nothing to do with 'September 11'.As we know the reason we invaded Iraq turned out to be false.No WMD.

Iraq had nothing to do with the 'war on terror'.But, we have NOW made it a breeding ground for terrorists and hatred.We are making things worse.

The 'display of power' has just made the WEST hated even more.We did NOT need this so called 'display of power'.

Also,I NEVER said anything about keeling over to anyone's demands.For the sake of the INNOCENT PEOPLE of the world we have to look at WHY this is happening???? War is NOT the answer.
 
^ fair enough. I too, am opposed to war... you should see my true colours by now. I hope :)

But I still don't have a satisfactory answer as to why this is happening... do you? Does anyone? Maybe we do need to listen more to the people we capture and detain and try to understand exactly what it is they want from us... if it is something we can fix, goddamn it, why aren't we fixing it?

ps. the attack on the Twin Towers was before the Iraq war.. why?
 
phase_dancer said:
You forget that these networks are spread all over the world, and particularly through greater Europe. I saw a TV program in April (ABC I think) that covered some of the intelligence info Interpol and the CIA had on these groups. Among other things, it focused on moroccans leaving their home country for different parts of Europe. In looking to meet other Moroccans, these young men were often prayed upon by the recruiting groups who trained them up for such operations.

What was truly amazing and quite terrifying in itself, is that when a cell was uncovered, it was often found that the instigators or group leaders were completely unknown to authorities, and even worse, impossible to trace where they'd come from or their true identities. The conclusion was a bleak forecast that the west hasn't got a hope....
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Thankyou for your response p_d :)

I am not forgetting that there are extremist networks situated worldwide, I am suggesting that the key operatives for these networks are based in the countries that are currently being occupied by the Western militaries.. eg Iraq and Afghanistan.
The media portrays the minor groups as being specifically connected and directed by the major networks such as Al Qaeda and Jemaah Islamiah. The motivation for these attacks comes from media appearances, tapes and letters produced by leaders of these networks. I believe if the major players in these groups can be removed, or the whole group eradicated in at least one country, it creates massive difficulty in communication and direction.

In countries such as those where the cells operate in mountains, caves etc, it would be highly difficult to obtain intelligence due to their seperation from the Western world..
It is the same situation with our intelligence operatives though (those who infiltrate the networks and obtain information). How do you think we possess such information about their operations?



I think it's naive to think these groups aren't intelligent. They often have university education and better. Something which you also don't hear much about concerns the weapons/ bombs potentially at their disposal. Following the Bali bombing it was evident that chemicals other than nitrates, nitro compounds etc, can, and are being employed in making improvised explosives.

I won't go into what some of these things could be, but I will say that it would be practically impossible to scan for all the possible ingredients that could be used to make such a bomb. IMO the worst is indeed yet to come, and I don't believe for one moment Australia is any more protected or safe than England. In fact, because of the large unoccupied regions, it could prove to be far less safe. Just my opinion of course....
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I dont think they are intelligent, anyone could perform the attacks that they have. They are simple, but not always effective. Sure, you can fly planes into buildings.. but planting explosives on public transport, in nightclubs, subways etc.. that isn't intelligent. That is cowardly. You dont need a university degree to make a bomb and put it on a train.
I completely agree with your suggestion that Australia is no more protected than any other that has the potential to be attacked, but I think the general Australian population is intelligent and cautious. This will make a massive difference in the protection, and detection of suspicious activity. Just my opinion, of course.. :)
 
ticktock said:
This is just great. How and the heck am I suppose to get better hearing about all of this negative shit going on around me? What's the point in leaving your house, when quite possibly those Al Queda pricks are going to plant a bomb in a shopping center or in your car?
Mark my words, Australia's next. Either Melbourne or Sydney. You won't be catching me in Crown Casino or Chadstone shopping center that's for sure. :(
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I highly doubt that they would attack Crown..
Crown has the most sophisticated and closely monitored security system in Melbourne, you cannot take backpacks or bags (other than handbags) onto the gaming floor.

I dont know much about Chadstone, but I would suggest that if they were to attack Melbourne/Sydney.. it would be similar to the London attacks, or even an attack on some other form of city infrastructure.. eg, the Yarra River could flood the underground tunnels..
 
Strawberry_lovemuffin said:

But I still don't have a satisfactory answer as to why this is happening... do you? Does anyone? Maybe we do need to listen more to the people we capture and detain and try to understand exactly what it is they want from us... if it is something we can fix, goddamn it, why aren't we fixing it?

ps. the attack on the Twin Towers was before the Iraq war.. why?
Click to expand...

Totally agree.EVERYTHING has to be looked at.
Why? Why? has to be looked at.



The aggressive violence approach is NOT the answer.

There is no simple answer,but the current approach is NOT the answer, I know that much.
 
sonicnature said:
I highly doubt that they would attack Crown..
Crown has the most sophisticated and closely monitored security system in Melbourne, you cannot take backpacks or bags (other than handbags) onto the gaming floor.

I dont know much about Chadstone, but I would suggest that if they were to attack Melbourne/Sydney.. it would be similar to the London attacks, or even an attack on some other form of city infrastructure.. eg, the Yarra River could flood the underground tunnels..
Click to expand...

I would agree that it would be some infrastructure or something that represents Australia - Sydney Opera House, Flinders Street Station... More likely to be Sydney Opera House - Lots of toursist and the damage it will cause will impact the tourism industry ...

F
 
The thing is, no matter how much Howard raves about the money he is spending on defence from terrorists, there is not a hell of a lot anyone can do about it. Besides of course, not giving reasons for us to be a target.

If I decided to fill my back pack with explosives and detonate myself in the middle of Sydney I fairly doubt anyone would notice anything strange before it was too late.
 
^ Not just here, apparently there have 70 reports of racist attacks in England, and 5 Mosques in New Zealand have had their windows smashed.

Fucking grow up you losers.

It wasn't really surprising that all of the racist graffitti that has been displayed on the news, from here in Australia, is spelt wrong. Rednecks much?

"I knew that this day would have to come
Wailing on the wall
Watching giants fall
I know there's a message to receive
Written in debris
It's meaning's hard to see
The loss of innocence
Means nothing in the new world
All our hands are red
Everyone is guilty now

I'm all right
Tell me you're all right
Stop my eyes...
Open wide

Another idiot glued to the box
Frozen to the screen
Scared to turn it off
Quiet shock gives way to righteousness
Rattle on the bars
Vengeance will be ours
Fanatics on their knees
Pray for a swift and just revenge
Become what they condemn
Mirror image men

Colors of democracy
Fly from every SUV
The misspelled bumper sticker's here
Where did all the honor students go?

Numbers on the news
This time with familiar names
This time on familiar ground
This reality in your back yard
So the fences fall
Will you redefine them all?
Will you choose shelter or empathy?
The world we share has come too close
With borders blown from glass
We collect stones and cast them"

- Never Stops, Lagwagon
 
that makes me more sick than anything - the fact that peaceful muslims walking down the street are now seen as a threat (well, post new yorks attacks anyway) . . .

this sounds harsh, but i can totally empathise with what these terrorists groups are feeling . . .
 
Think of it this way, if Australia is going to get attacked it probably won't be at least for another year, judging by the time between the other attacks.

What I love about the English is that they've just kept on going with their lives as if nothing has happened. You can either act scared and run inside crying, or you can say fuck you. Personally I have a life to live, so I am going on as if nothing has happened. :)
 
lostpunk5545 said:
If I decided to fill my back pack with explosives and detonate myself in the middle of Sydney I fairly doubt anyone would notice anything strange before it was too late.
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Assuming of course, you exhibited no outward signs of discomfort to any nearby trained people. You would sweat, you'd sure as hell would want to be wearing sunglasses to cover your darting eyes and dilated pupils and you would be very nervous (duh).
People, I'm sure, tend to be when they're about to explode.
I'd think the people around sites like the opera house would be trained to look for things like these.

I guess if you had really considered something like this, it'd be to your benefit that you don't really appear to be very middle eastern - people (I'm using myself as a guide here) would expect a middle eastern person to detonate. Sad that I (we?) make such a stereotype.

The opera house would be an interesting target.
Prestressed concrete + demolition = shit flying everywhere. Great fun for all the tourists around the harbour near the Opera House taking photos and going for a stroll
 
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