Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[DustnRoses]

Suboxone works wonders, but you have to use it the right way. Use the pyramid method, it works the best. Start at a low dose, increase for 2-3 days, then decrease for the next 3-4 days. It can be over in a week. I've done it.

 

[H-BOY]

If you are only planning to use bupe to taper just skip it and deal with 3-4 days of heroin withdrawal. you have to wait at least 24 hours anyway while you're already in withdrawal so just get some benzos, clonidine, and weed and stick out the rest.

The bupe is just going to make the process more difficult and longer, I don't think anyone should start bupe unless they are planning on going on maintenance.

With all due respect I completely disagree.

Yes you do have to wait until you are in pretty bad withdrawals but usually by 24hrs in I am only beginning to get to the worst of it. I find I am able to sleep through much of this initial stage unlike w/d 24+ hours. Tapering down from 4mg a day at most over a period of no more than 10 days down to 1mg or so, skipping days towards the end -- I find I have the advantage of:

-Being able to choose when and where I am sick. If I have something important to do I can dose that day and if I have a few days off I can speed up my taper by kicking with just some weed for a while.
-A far less severe withdrawal at the end that is only slightly longer. Usually dont have as severe chills, nausea, RLS, diarrea, anxiety, etc. which starts to improve after 72-100hrs in.

I personally would not use bupe for anything but a rapid taper. It does beat the worst of withdrawals but if I had the option/self control I'd much rather taper with a full agonist. Bupe tends to give me extreme fits of anger, depression, and irritability which is completely out of character for me high or sick. I also don't like benzo's much especially when sick so why risk another addiction when I have something more suited to my needs?

As far as IVing it, I very likely would if I had micron filters but the increased b/a and faster onset are far outweighed by the risk of shooting silica, talc or whatever insolubles. I would guess that the majority of people IVing subs do not use micron filters and I hope that there is not a high rate of deaths in our communities in the coming decades from this bullshit (Pharm Co.s not you guys).

This is obviously only my take on the matter not backed up by anything so make of it what you will. Sorry for the ramble but I am very conflicted on Suboxone myself so always looking to hear others take on it.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

As far as IVing it, I very likely would if I had micron filters but the increased b/a and faster onset are far outweighed by the risk of shooting silica, talc or whatever insolubles. I would guess that the majority of people IVing subs do not use micron filters and I hope that there is not a high rate of deaths in our communities in the coming decades from this bullshit (Pharm Co.s not you guys).

This is obviously only my take on the matter not backed up by anything so make of it what you will. Sorry for the ramble but I am very conflicted on Suboxone myself so always looking to hear others take on it.

Suboxone doesn't have talc or silica. It has corn starch.

The other problem with IV buprenorphine - less duration of effects compared to sublingual use.

I actually do micron filter Suboxone, and I made a thread on it. You are right though, many people injecting Subutex or Suboxone don't use a micron filter, and it would probably be better if they did.

You do bring up some good points here though. I also do think that it is the manufacturers of pills who have blood on their hands from all the horrible inactive ingredients they put in pills.

 

[DexterMeth]

So what's the consensus on the "spit or swallow" issue with suboxone (and I guess buprenorphine in general)? That older thread was closed down before many people answered. As of now I currently spit out the remainders after the spit has been saturating 10-15 minutes. I haven't got headaches ever since, and I really wash my mouth out before I swallow any regular spit. I think I may be sensitive to naloxone; gonna try to get on subutex. My new doc seems really cool. He thinks I may have ADD! lol.

 

[opiaddict]

faster suboxone elimination

I asked a moderator about this. He had stated that alcohol metabolizes methadome more quickly through your body. He didn't know what to say about if it does the same to suboxone and requested I start a thread. So here was my experience last week, I was getting very low on my suboxone supply. I notices every time I would drink, even one or two beers, i would feel like shit, not hangover, but sweaty and sleepless like I wanted to dose. Now I want to get off these suboxone so I can enjoy my new script of oxycodone. I has been 23 hours and I was not in what I know to be withdrawal from sub yet, I took these strenghts after a herd time with OContin, day 1- 32 mg, day 2 32mg, day 3 - none. day 4 - 24mg, 5 none day 6. 23.8 mg. then thursday, 2/25/10 I stopped until about .5 hrs ago I took 50 mg. oxycodone and then chewed 2 more up. So basically I waited 47 hours after my last bupe dose and thought I could switch to these endocet - generic percodan (I think?) 10/325. Why can't I feel better yet? How can I fush the suboxone through my system to induce withdrawals faster? I thought about drinking a few brewskies; I have a very low tolreance to alcohol but a very high tolerance to suboxone. I do feel a bit better, but not that super euphoria. With my plan, what does anyone alse know about how long to wait to switch to an full agonist without wasting them? I'm not very patient but I know waiting wil be worth it. Oh and by the way I also took several valiums expecting the stupid subutex to put me into wds and I thought by sleeping for three days, it would make waiting easier. I do now feel somewhat ok, but not like I had a zero tolerance. Wish I did.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

So what's the consensus on the "spit or swallow" issue with suboxone (and I guess buprenorphine in general)? That older thread was closed down before many people answered. As of now I currently spit out the remainders after the spit has been saturating 10-15 minutes. I haven't got headaches ever since, and I really wash my mouth out before I swallow any regular spit. I think I may be sensitive to naloxone; gonna try to get on subutex. My new doc seems really cool. He thinks I may have ADD! lol.

I would typically swallow but have spit before, either works fine if you let it mostly dissolve under your tongue for the first 10-20 minutes.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

You just have to wait. Suboxone has a rather long half life, and binds heavily to protein. You'll be done WDing when your mind and body are ready.

Since every human being is the same, there's really no telling.

You're only at 47 hours after your last buprenorphine dose though, that should tell you something. Try going a week or two. That goes for most opiates, really.

How much Suboxone did you take? Did you taper down?

You could have easily posted this into the Suboxone Mega Thread.

 

[IndustrialStrength]

^^ Would you or anyone else in this thread happen to have the actual numbers for how much nalaxone is absorbed sublingually as opposed to orally?
As I've also wondered what dexter was mentioning but haven't seen any actual numbers.
I've seen anecdotal accounts of people having less headaches from spitting as opposed to swallowing.
It'd be great to see if there's any numbers out there to help with the question as opposed to anecdotal evidence.
I obviously realize buprenorphine has a higher binding affinity.
However, for those sensitive to nalaxone whether or not the is any difference in how much is absorbed.
As I'm quite curious if any numbers could back up the idea that spitting helps prevent the associated headaches in those sensitive to nalaxone.

 

[DexterMeth]

I concur, and I must say that when I spit out the juice I don't get any headaches at all (adding to the annecdotal), it's just not a practical thing to do everyday and sometimes twice a day. I also get headaches, although more mild, but definately get more nausia, when I snort suboxone (I don't know about bupe itself), as more than I probably think ends up dripping down my esophogial tract. I'm going to try to get on subutex this comming week and tell you how it goes.

 

[fistful_of_needles]

I concur, and I must say that when I spit out the juice I don't get any headaches at all (adding to the annecdotal), it's just not a practical thing to do everyday and sometimes twice a day. I also get headaches, although more mild, but definately get more nausia, when I snort suboxone (I don't know about bupe itself), as more than I probably think ends up dripping down my esophogial tract. I'm going to try to get on subutex this comming week and tell you how it goes.

I've been on both and to be honest I see no major differences ,just opted for Subutex cause I truly saw no valid reason to put naloxone into my body ...also I'm under the impression Subutex produces a "stronger" effect without excluding the placebo factor...

 

[Captain.Heroin]

^^ Would you or anyone else in this thread happen to have the actual numbers for how much nalaxone is absorbed sublingually as opposed to orally?

I don't know the BA of naloxone to be exact (I'll look in the BA/HL mega thread), but I have a feeling it is going to be absorb no matter what ROA you use.

found it

Naloxone oral- 2-4% (90% absorption but high first-pass metabolism), Half life 1-1.5 hours

As I've also wondered what dexter was mentioning but haven't seen any actual numbers.
I've seen anecdotal accounts of people having less headaches from spitting as opposed to swallowing.

I think headaches are a dose-dependent side effect, but naloxone itself can cause people with a sensitivity to it headaches. I think the first is more prevalent (dose-dependent side effect).

I've been on both and to be honest I see no major differences ,just opted for Subutex cause I truly saw no valid reason to put naloxone into my body ...also I'm under the impression Subutex produces a "stronger" effect without excluding the placebo factor...

Interesting, I'll have to see if there's any way I can try Subutex and see if there's an opinion I could form regarding this matter! :D

 

[IndustrialStrength]

Thanks for the info Captain was working on something so didn't have a chance to search.
Oddly enough I find I get less headaches when I spit, though it seems like that may be placebo.
I use suboxone as a hold over on days when I'm not dosing full agonists.
I use between 125 micrograms and .5mg in a single dose, with a max of 1.25mg in a 24 hour time period, usually .5 to .75mg.
I take it sublingually with a bastardized version of 6/7's, basically under the tongue and add a lil alcohol under tongue with it.
Seeing as it's such small amounts I figure it's not worth the extra effort to use the cotton he mentioned.
Note that I don't take it on a regular basis, maybe once or twice a week every few weeks.
I was going to ask the sublingual vs oral bio-availability but with oral being so low, it seems somewhat redundant.

 

[rolls_]

I have a question about endorphin blocking with suboxone. Now I know that it partially uses the same dopamine reward system that alcohol does and as such lowers the buzz that is possible from drinking (when I was on 16mg alcohol had no euphoric effect at all). Does it have the same effect with MDMA? The reason I asked is I had a pill for the first time in 2 years the other night, my mates said they were the best they had had in years (had been stashed for 4+ years) however whilst I got the usual Im on drugs sensation (eye wobbles, clenchy jaw, kind of chatty) I had no euphoria what so ever.

I even tried a nitrous bulb which my mates said made it like the start again, once again it had no effect on me.

Now I know I've had bad reactions with pills before (25% of the time they have caused anxiety which is why I hardly ever did them) but this is odd. Could it be the bupe or is that very unlikely?

Interested to see if people have had similar reports. Either way I won't be doing md again just thought Id try it once as it had be so long.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Thanks for the info Captain was working on something so didn't have a chance to search.
Oddly enough I find I get less headaches when I spit, though it seems like that may be placebo.
I use suboxone as a hold over on days when I'm not dosing full agonists.
I use between 125 micrograms and .5mg in a single dose, with a max of 1.25mg in a 24 hour time period, usually .5 to .75mg.
I take it sublingually with a bastardized version of 6/7's, basically under the tongue and add a lil alcohol under tongue with it.
Seeing as it's such small amounts I figure it's not worth the extra effort to use the cotton he mentioned.
Note that I don't take it on a regular basis, maybe once or twice a week every few weeks.
I was going to ask the sublingual vs oral bio-availability but with oral being so low, it seems somewhat redundant.

Cool! Yeah I use 0.1mg per dose (100mcg) and I do about 4-6 doses per day at the very most. Some days less, others (especially if I'm up for the whole 24 hours) more.

The reason why 6/7 mentions using cotton is because there's different ways to administer the alcohol and bupe together, using cottons is just one of them.

If I may ask, what specifically are you using buprenorphine that infrequently for? It's obviously not maintenance, is it for getting high, or for pain management? Anti-depression? etc?

There's lots of positive uses for buprenorphine.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I have a question about endorphin blocking with suboxone. Now I know that it partially uses the same dopamine reward system that alcohol does and as such lowers the buzz that is possible from drinking (when I was on 16mg alcohol had no euphoric effect at all). Does it have the same effect with MDMA? The reason I asked is I had a pill for the first time in 2 years the other night, my mates said they were the best they had had in years (had been stashed for 4+ years) however whilst I got the usual Im on drugs sensation (eye wobbles, clenchy jaw, kind of chatty) I had no euphoria what so ever.

I even tried a nitrous bulb which my mates said made it like the start again, once again it had no effect on me.

Now I know I've had bad reactions with pills before (25% of the time they have caused anxiety which is why I hardly ever did them) but this is odd. Could it be the bupe or is that very unlikely?

Interested to see if people have had similar reports. Either way I won't be doing md again just thought Id try it once as it had be so long.

MDMA and MDA had 100% of their effect for me, though I am on a lower dose than you.

MDMA works on 5-HT primarily, but also has effects on dopamine and norepinephrine. This is different from how buprenorphine effects one.

It is theorized, however, that buprenorphine can "spill" into other brain receptors at higher doses. So if you do take 16mg, it is possible that you may not be able to feel MDMA (but I doubt this).

 

[rolls_]

Yeah I am only on 4mg now so I didn't think it was likely, still am interested why I felt the way I did on it though.

 

[DexterMeth]

I was on subutex for a short time during my methadone to buprenorphine jump. When they first put me on bupe they put me on suboxone, and within minutes I was puking and generally felt like shit. I thought it was just the methadone. But for the next few doses they put me on subutex and I remember feeling so much better than the first dose. Eventually they switched me back over to suboxone before I left and I felt pretty crappy again, but not as bad as the first day. So it definately was partially the methadone (obviously, didn't taper at all), but I can't be sure if it the methadone played a factor later in. I've always felt somewhat crappy on suboxone, but not fiendish, which I always thought was better and I'd just put up with it. The fact that I felt generally better, aside from knowing there was methadone still bits of methadone knocking off my receptors makes me think that I may have a sensitivity to naloxone. I just felt like throwing that in here, I won't respond until/unless I get subutex...or don't.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Yeah I am only on 4mg now so I didn't think it was likely, still am interested why I felt the way I did on it though.

Weird. I really have no idea though, sorry to hear about the lack of effects.

I was on subutex for a short time during my methadone to buprenorphine jump. When they first put me on bupe they put me on suboxone, and within minutes I was puking and generally felt like shit. I thought it was just the methadone. But for the next few doses they put me on subutex and I remember feeling so much better than the first dose. Eventually they switched me back over to suboxone before I left and I felt pretty crappy again, but not as bad as the first day. So it definately was partially the methadone (obviously, didn't taper at all), but I can't be sure if it the methadone played a factor later in. I've always felt somewhat crappy on suboxone, but not fiendish, which I always thought was better and I'd just put up with it. The fact that I felt generally better, aside from knowing there was methadone still bits of methadone knocking off my receptors makes me think that I may have a sensitivity to naloxone. I just felt like throwing that in here, I won't respond until/unless I get subutex...or don't.

Good luck with getting Subutex! If you felt better on it you deserve to get it in my opinion.

 

[JahRed24x]

Suboxone.... The worst side-effect for me... is the horrendous insomnia that I get from it.. No matter the dose, whether I do it in the morning or at night or in split doses... I've tried it all.. Still the insomnia persists. I've always had sleeping problems - even before I ever discovered opiates.. No i don't have anxiety and I can even shut down my mind (at least i think i am) and have not many thoughts going and still just lay here wide awake.
I've been recently taking 5mg - 10mg doses of melatonin gel-tabs each night to no avail usually. (yeah i know its a high dose of Melatonin but trust me im not retarded). I think that if I started exercising again like I use to back in the day that maybe it would solve this problem...but i don't know - i've exercised before going to the gym at night and still can noT sleep.

Melatonin, Diph, Valerian Root.. no help usually... Restoril but only 30 of them and they are gone within a few days... so no benzo addiction or dependence... I am losing my mind.. Oh lord have mercy, why can't I sleep?!?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Suboxone.... The worst side-effect for me... is the horrendous insomnia that I get from it.. No matter the dose, whether I do it in the morning or at night or in split doses... I've tried it all.. Still the insomnia persists. I've always had sleeping problems - even before I ever discovered opiates.. No i don't have anxiety and I can even shut down my mind (at least i think i am) and have not many thoughts going and still just lay here wide awake.
I've been recently taking 5mg - 10mg doses of melatonin gel-tabs each night to no avail usually. (yeah i know its a high dose of Melatonin but trust me im not retarded). I think that if I started exercising again like I use to back in the day that maybe it would solve this problem...but i don't know - i've exercised before going to the gym at night and still can noT sleep.

Melatonin, Diph, Valerian Root.. no help usually... Restoril but only 30 of them and they are gone within a few days... so no benzo addiction or dependence... I am losing my mind.. Oh lord have mercy, why can't I sleep?!?

Buprenorphine can be very stimulating. Maybe you need to try lowering your dose a lot?

I use 0.1mg at a time and can stay up for 6 to 8 hours due to a dose.

Restoril helps me a lot too, and 30 pills would last me a lot longer.

I would try combining an antihistamine with Restoril. That's helped me out tremendously.