Save Nguyen Tuong Van

[eKLaB]

^^^^^^^^^^^
I just think this debate is pointless.
If it had not of been for public out cry the government wouldn't have done what little they have done.
Countries like Singapore have these laws to protect themselves.
Who are we to go telling Singapore what to do?

 

[clop]

Of course everyone knew that capital punishment was real, its just that it wasnt at the forefront of their minds. Only now has the medium for argument been seen with the Nguyen case.

I think what you meant to say is that, "Of course everyone knew that capital punishment was real, its just that nobody cared. The medium for argument has been around for decades but nobody used it because the criminals weren't Australian drug mules and their cases weren't on the telly."

Like I said, it's all a bit too convenient for me. It's like a fashion or something. Those awful long pointy shoes are another one. They look absolutely AWFUL. In fact they look ridiculous. But because they're on the telly all the girls go out and buy some and suddenly they look "smart". You're being played by the media. It's a form of brainwashing. The media is showing the Nguyen case to sell newspapers and airtime, not to free Nguyen. The moment Shapelle Corby's trial was over she was off the news. What will you be up in arms about after Nguyen? Can't you think of a cause to support on your own?

clop

 

[Fry-d-]

PM to attend cricket on day Nguyen hangs

November 28, 2005

AS family and friends of death row inmate Nguyen Tuong Van begin four days of goodbyes, Prime Minister John Howard has said he'll spend the Melbourne man's execution day at the cricket.

Mr Howard, who maintains all efforts to save Nguyen have been exhausted, said today he had an obligation as host to attend the Prime Minister's XI cricket match on Friday.

Nguyen will hang in Singapore's Changi prison at dawn that day after he admitted smuggling heroin to repay debts owed by his twin brother Khoa.

Labor and the Democrats today demanded the cricket match be called off out of respect for Nguyen.

Labor senator George Campbell said Mr Howard's justification for attending the game was feeble.

"I think it's an outrage that the match should go ahead and if he has any support for the abolition of hanging, then he wouldn't go to the match on Friday," Senator Campbell told reporters in Canberra.

"He would lead a protest in Parliament House against it. Of course call the match off, of course he's being insensitive."

Australian Democrats senator Natasha Stott Despoja agreed, saying she felt sickened by the prospect that Mr Howard would attend the game.

"... this is about how Australians and the rest of the world, including the people of Singapore, will view our response to this horrendous act – if indeed it goes ahead," she said.

"The prime minister has to show some gravitas and at this late stage make it very clear that the last thing he will be doing this week is playing cricket."

But Mr Howard has insisted he is obliged to attend, and he hoped Australians would understand.

"I have a duty as the host to go to that match," Mr Howard told ABC radio today.

"I think the Australian people will understand that I didn't set the date of this man's execution. I wish there was no date set for his execution."

Nguyen's mother Kim, brother Khoa and two of his closest friends Bronwyn Lew and Kelly Ng are in Singapore to say their final goodbyes this week.

It is not known which of the group will visit the 25-year-old today, who will be afforded an hour-long visit before those privileges are extended from tomorrow until Thursday.

He will not be allowed visitors before he is hanged in the early hours of Friday morning.

Attorney-General Philip Ruddock today downplayed new hopes held by Nguyen's legal team that the execution could still be stopped by taking the case to the International Court of Justice.

He said Singapore had repeatedly said it would not accept the jurisdiction of the court in the matter.

Singapore's Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong told Mr Howard that just yesterday when Mr Howard made a fifth and final plea for clemency.

Nguyen's lawyer Julian McMahon is refusing to give up hope, again calling on Australia to invite Singapore to test its mandatory death penalty in the court.

"We have a dispute between the law of the first world, which says a mandatory death penalty is wrong, and Singapore's law where they say, no that's okay," Mr McMahon told Channel Nine.

"Singapore then says its system is open and fair, well we want to challenge that ... we say that's a genuine legal dispute."

Mr Howard has ruled out using economic sanctions in a last ditch bid to persuade Singapore not to go ahead with the execution, but the ACTU has said it will consider trade bans.

ACTU president Sharan Burrow said the union movement would be prepared to impose a boycott, or undertake similar action, against the Singaporean government if there the community supported such action.

"Enough (union) members have indicated they are more than willing (to impose bans)," Ms Burrow told the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

"Anything they could do would be more than welcome, including trade sanctions."

Mr Ruddock said the government may consider a request for a minute's silence to observe Nguyen's hanging. Meanwhile, Australians are being urged to wear yellow ribbons as a gesture of support for the condemned man.

Nguyen was arrested in Singapore's Changi Airport in December 2002 while trying to board a flight to Australia with 396 grams of heroin strapped to his body and in his hand luggage.

He was sentenced to death despite cooperating with drug investigations by authorities in Singapore and Australia.

From Dailytelegraph.news.com.au

 

[clop]

Here's a link to the executions scheduled in Texas over the next five months.

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/scheduledexecutions.htm

I wonder if John Howard will appeal for clemency for any of them. Now that we are all aware of the issue and the medium for argument is available, I wonder how many bluelighters will start petitions for these people. I wonder how many threads will be started to desperately try to save Tony Ford from the electric chair on 7th December. I wonder if we will observe a minute's silence for him.

Hmm.

clop

 

[chugs]

I wonder if John Howard will appeal for clemency for any of them. Now that we are all aware of the issue and the medium for argument is available, I wonder how many bluelighters will start petitions for these people. I wonder how many threads will be started to desperately try to save Tony Ford from the electric chair on 7th December. I wonder if we will observe a minute's silence for him.
clop

all human death is bad, sad and wrong.

But that said this is a Australian Drug discussion forum - it talks about things in the context's of drug and Australia.

It's not a non-drug texas capital punishment forum and nor is it a end the slaughter in Iraqi thread either.

You don't like people supporting Van's right to live because you think it be-littles all the other injustices going on out in the world at the moment. You don't like because it you believe these people are missing the point and are being deluded/mislead by a media campaign.

who cares if it's brainwashing, or if people are jumping on the bandwagon. The end result we're all working to is that this person doesn't die.

Better still if these flippantly easily manipulated types, who still think capital punishment is alright but not for an Australian still jump on this bandwagon then perhaps there is a chance of getting through to them on the entire issue.

maybe your being a little cynical but the fact that this thread has garnished the amount of responses, for a "asian" non-white human being in country that traditionally supports the white battler then fuck take it for what it is and stop whinging about how the entire cause is stuffed because these people don't really care about capital punishment and the extingiushing of human life.

I have no problem if some teenbopper, capalistic scum, enviromentally polluting right winger "I'll suck john howards cock whilst I snort coke" (but hey fuck those nasty coke dealers when they get caught) is trying to save Van's life.


At the end of the day i think this entire matter can be summed up:

No matter the crime no has the right to kill another human being

 

[MazDan]

No matter the crime no has the right to kill another human being

What about a person who kills others?

To be honest I think that killing someone is far more humane than putting them in prison for the rest of there lives...........I wouldnt wish that on anyone.

Would you be upset if a dog was locked up all its life? wouldnt you agree it would be better off dead?

I dont believe that the crime is worth killing someone for but that is me, an Aussie and I cant comment cos I dont know there problems.

I do believe that eachy countries laws need to be respected.

This guy knew what the law was and yet still chose to take the chance........he flipped the coin and lost.........why am I having to pay for someone to try and save his sorry ass.

 

[eKLaB]

PM to attend cricket on day Nguyen hangs

November 28, 2005

AS family and friends of death row inmate Nguyen Tuong Van begin four days of goodbyes, Prime Minister John Howard has said he'll spend the Melbourne man's execution day at the cricket.

Mr Howard, who maintains all efforts to save Nguyen have been exhausted, said today he had an obligation as host to attend the Prime Minister's XI cricket match on Friday.

Nguyen will hang in Singapore's Changi prison at dawn that day after he admitted smuggling heroin to repay debts owed by his twin brother Khoa.

Labor and the Democrats today demanded the cricket match be called off out of respect for Nguyen.

Labor senator George Campbell said Mr Howard's justification for attending the game was feeble.

"I think it's an outrage that the match should go ahead and if he has any support for the abolition of hanging, then he wouldn't go to the match on Friday," Senator Campbell told reporters in Canberra.

"He would lead a protest in Parliament House against it. Of course call the match off, of course he's being insensitive."

Australian Democrats senator Natasha Stott Despoja agreed, saying she felt sickened by the prospect that Mr Howard would attend the game.

"... this is about how Australians and the rest of the world, including the people of Singapore, will view our response to this horrendous act – if indeed it goes ahead," she said.

"The prime minister has to show some gravitas and at this late stage make it very clear that the last thing he will be doing this week is playing cricket."

But Mr Howard has insisted he is obliged to attend, and he hoped Australians would understand.

"I have a duty as the host to go to that match," Mr Howard told ABC radio today.

"I think the Australian people will understand that I didn't set the date of this man's execution. I wish there was no date set for his execution."

Nguyen's mother Kim, brother Khoa and two of his closest friends Bronwyn Lew and Kelly Ng are in Singapore to say their final goodbyes this week.

It is not known which of the group will visit the 25-year-old today, who will be afforded an hour-long visit before those privileges are extended from tomorrow until Thursday.

He will not be allowed visitors before he is hanged in the early hours of Friday morning.

Attorney-General Philip Ruddock today downplayed new hopes held by Nguyen's legal team that the execution could still be stopped by taking the case to the International Court of Justice.

He said Singapore had repeatedly said it would not accept the jurisdiction of the court in the matter.

Singapore's Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong told Mr Howard that just yesterday when Mr Howard made a fifth and final plea for clemency.

Nguyen's lawyer Julian McMahon is refusing to give up hope, again calling on Australia to invite Singapore to test its mandatory death penalty in the court.

"We have a dispute between the law of the first world, which says a mandatory death penalty is wrong, and Singapore's law where they say, no that's okay," Mr McMahon told Channel Nine.

"Singapore then says its system is open and fair, well we want to challenge that ... we say that's a genuine legal dispute."

Mr Howard has ruled out using economic sanctions in a last ditch bid to persuade Singapore not to go ahead with the execution, but the ACTU has said it will consider trade bans.

ACTU president Sharan Burrow said the union movement would be prepared to impose a boycott, or undertake similar action, against the Singaporean government if there the community supported such action.

"Enough (union) members have indicated they are more than willing (to impose bans)," Ms Burrow told the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

"Anything they could do would be more than welcome, including trade sanctions."

Mr Ruddock said the government may consider a request for a minute's silence to observe Nguyen's hanging. Meanwhile, Australians are being urged to wear yellow ribbons as a gesture of support for the condemned man.

Nguyen was arrested in Singapore's Changi Airport in December 2002 while trying to board a flight to Australia with 396 grams of heroin strapped to his body and in his hand luggage.

He was sentenced to death despite cooperating with drug investigations by authorities in Singapore and Australia.

From Dailytelegraph.news.com.au

What a fkn joke that is!
I heard that on the radio not long ago and thought to myself, why dont we just stop the whole Australian economy while we're at it.

 

[Bent Mk2]

Labor and the Democrats today demanded the cricket match be called off out of respect for Nguyen.

Labor senator George Campbell said Mr Howard's justification for attending the game was feeble.

"I think it's an outrage that the match should go ahead and if he has any support for the abolition of hanging, then he wouldn't go to the match on Friday," Senator Campbell told reporters in Canberra.

Are they farkin' serious? Why shouldn't he attend? Whether you agree with the sentence or not, lets no lose sight of the fact that he's a convicted criminal!

Should the whole of Australia shut down for the day? Fark me, this is getting ridiculous! Especially when they're demanding this for no other reason than vote farming.

 

[keystroke]

don't you think that Van was being insensitive when he smuggled heroin through Asia with the sole purpose of making MONEY?

it's insensitive to think that anyone would even stop to think of him when the cricket is on, let alone, the Prime Minister, who has already given too much of his time on the matter.

he knew what he was doing, he knew the consequences and he got caught.

 

[volume-A]

People have said "what is hanging van going to do to stop the drug trade, the drugs will still get on the street etc" It is tradgic what has happened to van but the governments arn't looking at van as a person, no one on death row as a person.

This is all about detterent, and while each indivdual case may be sad, you need to look at the bigger picture. Drugs will always find their way to the street no matter what law comes in because there is always someone willing. But these governments have made the ultimate sacrifice "if you traffic drugs we will kill you" there isnt much more of a threat than that to scare people into not doing it. And if they choose to and dont have some mental disorder etc then they play russian roulette

Sorry if im rambling but no one gives 2 shits about the guy/girl that Od's on the shit "van" would have brought to our shores

 

[chugs]

What about a person who kills others?

What does it achieve. Does it stop future deaths? Does it placate or heal the victims of their crime? Is society enriched by the concept that hey if we can't fix a problem let's flush it down the loo?

Punishment/revenge is simply a primevil ancient response that we practised as cavemen when group survival required clensing of inviduduals who would not toe the line.

I would have hoped humans have significantly evovled from such a position.

To be honest I think that killing someone is far more humane than putting them in prison for the rest of there lives...........I wouldnt wish that on anyone.

till don't think it's right to kill them. Don't think any human being on this planet has the right to dictate whether another person dies or not.

That said you could for the sake of arguing simply redefine what it is to be human and if that value was not meet then you could destroy the non-human without qualm or ethetics getting in the way.

Would you be upset if a dog was locked up all its life? wouldnt you agree it would be better off dead?

Van isn't a dog. That said I believe a human should have the right to dictate whether they live or die. No one else has that right.

So in Van's case if he was given life inprisionment then i would give him the choice of a quick and painless death. Still don't believe in long prision sentances.

I do believe that eachy countries laws need to be respected.

Time and time again you people keep parroting this nonsenical piece of specious logic.

We involve ourselves all the times in the affairs of other countries. Look at Iraqi. Not only do we assist in the security and policing of their country but we're heavily involved economically and politically.

What about Papua New Guina, that country hates our fucking guts but we're forcing our laws onto them (and worse still forcing our security personnel ).

There are so many examples of Australia involving itself in area's that you claim are scared to only the indigenous natives of that country.

What about the Aboringals, not only do we force our values and laws onto them but we let them die in our jails.

This world is so interconnected that claiming that a country has some soverign, hallowed area that we cannot dare to tread on is simply a weak argument. It is a way of transferring responsiblity, disvowing yourself from the decision that has been invoked to extiniusgh the life of another human being.

The only reason why these countries don't give a fuck about the imprisonment of their nationals in Australia (rightly or wrongly) is simply because they have no regard whatsoever for human life.

Go to a third-world country, see entire families, barely clothed, living on the median strip of a highway, then watch rich fuckers in their big US made trucks drive right on by....Watch the compounds and Macdonalds filled to the bream with people whilst poor beggers wait for the rubbish/scraps to be dumped outside.

Singapore is simply an extension of these countries, the only difference is they have clean pavement.

 

[chugs]

Sorry if im rambling but no one gives 2 shits about the guy/girl that Od's on the shit "van" would have brought to our shores

Huh - what the fuck is bluelight then? Bluelight evolved because society and our governments thought the only solution to stoping the OD's & deaths was via interdiction and punishment.
We all know how successful that particular policy has been.

The "shit" Van would have brought to our shores would have been sold by other people. If you want to talk about personal responsibility then why are you not baying for the death of those dealers. What if those dealers are the very same people who sell you drugs? What if they were your friends? Still want them to die?

What do you care about junkies and users. You barely care about human beings who are given punishment massively exceeding the "crime" their accused of.

If you want to protect the right of drug users then killing dealers and traffickers is not the way to go about it.

Go to your town hall meetings, help enlighten, vote Green and stop mistruths from being perpetuated, and don't parrot the bullshit conservative mantra of

"what about the rights of the victims who take these drugs"

I take heroin, should I blame the dealer for my ODs, my pain and misery? No of course not - Van is no more guilty then a soldier is perpetuating the Iraqi war or a politician who applies flawed policies to drug interdiction.

 

[keystroke]

vote Green? last I knew, the Greens were a bunch of dirty hippies

Van knew what he was doing, if he didn't like Singapore law he should never of went there. he did it out of greed, why couldn't he of gotten one, two or even three jobs like the rest of the hard working Australians that owe hundreds of thousands of dollars?

one reason, because he couldn't be bothered.

no one is to blame here except himself.

 

[chugs]

Van knew what he was doing, if he didn't like Singapore law he should never of went there.

He didn't mean to go there, it was just a stop over for godsake...he didn’t even go through the custom gate. He got arrested and he was in an international terminal, not exactly the most legal of arrests.

he did it out of greed,

No he did it to pay for his brother debt. That is not greed.

If he did to buy a mansion, or more drugs, or cars or something like that then perhaps you would be right, but your not.

QUOTE=keystroke]why couldn't he of gotten one, two or even three jobs like the rest of the hard working Australians that owe hundreds of thousands of dollars?

The people who his brother owed the money to were making threats to Van's mother/family. He had already sold his business to pay for the debts. He was at wit's end.

These people weren't giving anymore time and the personal security of his family was at stake. I think you would be quite tempted to just become a mule if you were in the same situation

More importantly creditors normally don't threaten the life of your mother/brother/yourself, if you fail to pay a debt. Working three jobs may have been an option if he had legitimate creditor. Fuck he could gotten a Part IX if that was the case, gotten his debt frozen and worked himself out of it.

These people were loan sharks and apart from cutting peoples thumbs off they are also well known for their special orthopedic ablities.

one reason, because he couldn't be bothered.
no one is to blame here except himself.

He couldn't be bothered to take an increadible risk to free his family from possible (fatal) harm?

He has everyone to blame, his brother, the society that let the addicts sqaunder their lives in addiction, the country that doesn't have to kill him.

You haven't given a credible/critical point as to why this human being's life should be extingiushed.

and don't try that line about "but what about the victims". Van was not selling the drugs. That responsiblity lies with the dealers themselves and more importantly with the addicts.

 

[mr king]

the claims he has made about clearing up someones debt IS TRUE, australias,england(queen),america all asking the asian goverment for him to be extradited back to aus DENIED the falling out with australias and asia most likly *remember the free trade proposal aswell evan tho this young boy was trying to do the right thing he was well aware and knows/knew what would happen but asia not handing him over FUKED

respect for ya bud KING ONE!

HB will be along for the ride

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

This is all incredibly sad. He is handling it with such dignity too

 

[w0bBLeD]

Such a sad thing to happen, the poor bloke has gotten him self into the deepest of shit hasn't he and it looks like he's never going to get out. I'm sure he will be going to a better place then having to sit around in a depressing old prison for the rest of his life so if I was him I would at least go out with a smile on my face.

 

[aunty establishment]

Two days. I am really, really pissed off that he's being executed on my birthday. I'm just pissed off in general. Damn it!

 

[BigTrancer]

Why Nguyen must die
By Joseph Koh
November 30, 2005

Singapore's decision to execute Nguyen Tuong Van for drug trafficking is correct and responsible.

ALTHOUGH opinions in Australia are not unanimous, many Australians strongly oppose Singapore's decision not to commute the death sentence on Mr Nguyen Tuong Van for drug trafficking. I respect these views, which spring from a deep sense of human compassion. However, the outcry has also made it difficult to separate fact from fiction.

Fiction No. 1: Singapore has breached international law.
There is no international agreement to abolish the death penalty. Capital punishment remains part of the criminal justice systems of 76 countries, including in the United States, where it is practised in 38 states.

We respect Australia's sovereign choice not to have capital punishment. We hope Australia will likewise respect Singapore's sovereign choice to impose the death penalty for the most serious crimes, including drug trafficking. The overwhelming majority of Singaporeans support this.

Fiction No. 2: The death penalty has not deterred drug trafficking.
This logic is flawed. The death penalty has not completely eliminated drug trafficking, but it has certainly deterred drug trafficking. Since the introduction of tough anti-drug laws in the mid-1970s, drug trafficking and drug abuse in Singapore have come down significantly. Potential traffickers know that, once arrested, they face the full weight of the law.

Fiction No. 3: Mr Nguyen is an unsuspecting victim
Mr Nguyen may not be a hardened criminal, but he is not an unsuspecting victim either. He knew what he was doing and the penalty if he was caught. Had he succeeded, he would have made a lot of money. If we let off a convicted courier because of age, financial difficulties or distressed family background, it will only make it easier for drug traffickers to recruit more "mules", with the assurance that they will escape the death penalty.

Fiction No 4: The punishment does not fit crime.
Mr Nguyen was caught with 396 grams of pure heroin, enough for 26,000 "hits", with a street value of more than $A1 million.

Yes, he was transiting Singapore, and not smuggling drugs into the country, but Singapore simply cannot afford to allow itself to become a transit hub for illicit drugs in the region.

Fiction No. 5: Mr Nguyen can testify against Mr Bigs.
All drug syndicates assume that some of their couriers will get caught. They never let the couriers know enough to incriminate themselves. The information that Mr Nguyen provided to the Singapore authorities was of limited value, and was, in fact, intended to mislead and delay the investigation.

Fiction No. 6: Singapore connives with drug lords.
This is an old falsehood propagated by Dr Chee Soon Juan (Singapore opposition leader). He has alleged that the Singapore Government had invested in projects in Myanmar (Burma) that supported the drug trade. When this first surfaced in 1996, the Singapore Government explained that its investment in the Myanmar Fund was completely open and above board. The fund held straightforward commercial investments in hotels and companies. Other investors in the fund included Coutts & Co, an old British bank, and the Swiss Bank Corporation. The Singapore Government offered to set up a commission of inquiry so Dr Chee could produce evidence to prove his wild allegations. Unfortunately, Dr Chee never took up the offer.

Fiction No. 7: Singapore has treated Australia with contempt.
Singapore highly values good relations with Australia and with Australian leaders. We share a common belief in the sanctity of the law. The Singapore cabinet deliberated at length on Mr Nguyen's clemency petition. It considered all relevant factors, including Mr Nguyen's personal circumstances, and the many public and private appeals from Australian leaders. Unfortunately, finally the cabinet decided that it could not justify making an exception for Mr Nguyen. It had to treat Mr Nguyen consistently with similar past cases, and apply the law equally to Singaporeans and foreigners.

Singapore's leaders have taken pains to explain our decision to Australian leaders, both in writing and in person. Singapore's Foreign Minister had also informed Foreign Minister Alexander Downer confidentially in advance of when the family would be notified of the execution date, and explained to Mr Downer that that the family should be the first to learn of the execution date. So when Singapore's Prime Minister, Lee Hsien Loong, met Prime Minister John Howard in Busan, he could not inform Mr Howard of the execution date either. Mr Lee did not know that the letter of notification had by mistake already been delivered to Mrs Kim Nguyen, one day early. Once Mr Lee discovered what had happened, he promptly apologised to Mr Howard.

Australians who oppose the death sentence on Mr Nguyen will not agree with everything I have said. But I hope they will accept that the Singapore Government has a responsibility to protect the many lives that would otherwise be blighted and destroyed by the drug syndicates, and to prevent Singapore from becoming a conduit for illicit drugs in the region. We are all touched by the pain and anguish of Mr Nguyen's mother, but if we waver in our firm position against drug trafficking, many more families will be shattered.

Joseph K. H. Koh is Singapore high commissioner in Australia.

From: http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/why-nguyen-must-die/2005/11/29/1133026469782.html

BigTrancer

 

[aunty establishment]

Hey Joe: government mouthpiece, much?

Reading that is pretty much like reading the newspapers here - infuriating.

I'll be in the AngryDome.