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☮ Social ☮ PD Social Talk Thread: If 2020 Was the Dumpster, Can 2021 Be the Fire?

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Fuck no. They try to put one of those in me or one of my (thus far hypothetical) kids and someone's gonna die. Word on that. No problem with it being me as long as I don't get whatever the fuck a "neural lace" is put in my head. I just hope I'd be able to take enough motherfuckers with me that they'll face tougher odds with my neighbor. And he likewise until there are no motherfuckers left. And I think enough Americans feel like me that there isn't even enough force to flex on us to try and do this. This is why we as Americans are an armed people. And people are certainly not doing that shit voluntarily. Not in this country. It's just not going to happen either way. Deo gratias.
Well, I don't expect it's going to be enforced in the immediate future, just like vaccines aren't strictly enforced today (although arguably - they should be). Equally, I don't think it's going to be all that amazing in the first iterations of it, or that there might not be some problems along the way. But, some enterprising or just foolhardy humans, however you look at it, once the option is there, no doubt will opt to get some kind of direct neural interface implanted that allows them to, say, make and receive phone calls with their mind, or access the internet at will. I expect this will cause problems - some implants might turn out to be damaging in the long term, inducing early dementia, Parkinson's or some other previously unforeseen neurodegenerative disease. And of course, the psychological impact will be widespread and not always good. People are addicted to their phones now. Imagine what it would be like if they just had to think about looking something up online, how much that would absolutely annihilate the attention spans of so many of us.

But, this would not be the first social problem to be introduced by advanced technologies. The first TVs no doubt had a damaging effect on social connection within people's homes, black and white and grainy as they were. But, we've coped as a species. While we're still getting to grips with the impact of smartphones, we are already more aware of the problems they can cause, and concepts like "digital wellbeing", or good practices for it, have come into play, and many smartphone OSes now come with some of these basic countermeasures pre-installed, like ability to monitor your screentime, block certain apps for a while or whatever. It's not perfect sure, but it's a start, and as a believer in the fundamental usefulness of advanced technology to the longevity and primarily, long term quality of life, and overall happiness of future generations of the human species - I believe we will get better at managing these dangers, and better at integrating these very new technologies into our daily lives.

Same goes for the hypothetical neural lace. Yeah, sure, the early versions will likely do some harm. People will be very skeptical. Very real threats like viruses that can eavesdrop on your thoughts or subtly influence your actions by hijacking the capabilities of the software to influence your perception of the world can and probably will occur. But, in the long term - just like the immense advantages of genetically engineered designer babies would give to the human species in the long term - the potential advantages are huge. Imagine - if we don't know something, rather than simply look it up, we could summon the knowledge into our minds seamlessly. It's possible, equally, that a technological augmentation of the human brain could give us a greater degree of conscious control over the many difficulties of living within a human mind, basic, instinctual, animal emotions that influence us to act in ways we regret. React to situations with anger and fear where it is not warranted, or helpful, to anyone. The human brain is not a perfectly designed machine, but a mess that while an amazing thing, came about through the messy and disorganised road of natural evolution, and it has worked, so far, "well enough". It does not mean it cannot be improved. Just as the human neocortex provides a degree of top-down control over our basic animal impulses in the limbic and deeper reptilian brain structures - although for anyone who isn't basically a zen monk - this is difficult to do reliably - a technological augmentation could give us an even greater control, and not only that, understanding, of our minds, what it is to be conscious, and to live within one.

People act like intrusions into the brain are some kind of sacrilege, technology gone too far, "playing god", or whatever. People once said that steam locomotives would cause women to spontaneously abort with the noise. To me, and no offence intended - this is luddite nonsense. We already use technology to change ourselves. What about cochlear implants for the deaf? Retinal implants for the blind (low resolution though they might be right now)? We already use technology as an extension of our minds, our ability to truly learn has declined with the advent of mobile devices because we can just look stuff up - but it's also lead to a far more connected world.

Human consciousness, natural, sober human consciousness of an average 21st century human, is not necessarily as good as we can get, or the limit of what we should aspire to become. Technological implants in our minds could give us access to a higher level of consciousness - there is already evidence that biofeedback techniques focused on real-time measurement of brain activity can train us to better manage various psychological or emotional states such as stress, attention, or whatever. What if we had a real time, Heads Up Display on a separate, internal "screen" to our actual visual field, showing us the activity of the various parts of our minds, and more importantly, how this influences our behaviour, and why we act in the way we do, why we think in the way we do. We all like to think we know ourselves. We don't. We act, and our minds tell us a story that rationalises our actions. That does not need to be true, or at least, it can become less true. We can know ourselves better. We can augment ourselves - one day - with technology that will strengthen the admittedly - quite amazing - but still very limited - top down control mechanisms of our human neocortex over our messy, evolved monkey brains.

Once this is possible - and in my view, it's not a question of if, but when, because there will always be willing volunteers, and nothing that I've described has not already been demonstrated in a lesser form - making this an engineering problem, primarily, not a question of whether or not it is even feasible - then like the internet, smartphones, and motor vehicles, there is zero chance that it will not rapidly proliferate across the world. Because for a mature form of this technology, the advantages it would imbue would be so immense that anyone who did not adopt it would be left behind. Maybe some strange totalitarian holdout like North Korea would keep it illegal, try to hide knowledge of this technology's existence, but does anyone expect this would really last in the long term?

I've focused primarily on the way this could change our experience of consciousness and living within a human mind with all it's strange quirks, because to me that's what's most interesting, but obviously the possibility for something close to actual telepathy and instant transfer of knowledge is an important potential possibility too, with huge potential for enhancing the ability of human beings to solve the problems that need solving in the world - namely, how can we best create a bright and utopian future for the descendants of humanity, while undoing the damage we've already done to the biosphere of the Earth the best we can?

Additionally, I expect that mature versions of this technology - once it becomes widespread - would be implanted early, because of the potential to make the brain more resistant against traumatic brain injury. Without even getting into the philosophically controversial quagmire of mind uploading and the like - say someone sustains a traumatic brain injury that damages a critical part of their biological mind. Usually it would affect their memory, speech, their ability to recognise faces. Depending on the capabilities, resilience, and software design of the neural lace - let's say it's recording neuronal activity and function in a kind of temporary flash drive. At the moment of injury, it intervenes to attempt to mitigate any further, collateral damage, cutting off the damaged regions, tweaking cerebral bloodflow as much as possible, and attempting to compensate for the loss of function in the natural biological mind. It might not be perfect - it might not feel the same, it might be very clear that something's very wrong. But, assuming appropriate treatment, and the potential for recovery, a mind augmented with a technology that can serve as a backup memory, a backup speech and word comprehension engine, backup facial recognition software - even, perhaps, coaxing the damaged regions back to greater efficiency and function by mitigating the subsequent stress and confusion and cognitive load that TBI patients surely have to go through in an effort to have any kind of recovery... Well, that kind of augmented mind, and the conscious being within it, is going to have a far better quality of life than someone who experienced the same injury, but did not have any technological backup system to rely on to help them both during the event and during their recovery.


The word χάραγμα, "mark [of the beast]", in the Apocalypse (Revelation) of St. John (at 13:16) is interesting. It implies "engraved, imprinted, stamped, branded." Now I'm not suggesting the sort of archetypical Protestant Fundamentalist view of things, necessarily. The image of the Roman Emperor (Nero at the time) was on the coinage, and got there by imprinting/stamping, and the coin was needed to participate in the economy, verse 17, the mark needed to "buy or sell," which verse references the famous "Number of the Beast," which, by gematria, fits neatly with "Nero Caesar" as well.

Now, I think that it's very likely that's what it means. But occasionally it starts to sound like certain bits of modern technology, like a computer chip. Or, the mark is said to be in the head or right hand ... as are people's cellphones all the time. All this winds up in a very scary place. Shit like what you're talking about just makes you think. Even if the ideas about a future technological χάραγμα are nonsense, at a minimum they're keeping the government from chipping people for now because the people just wouldn't be up for that shit, so that's a good thing.
Eh... No, I don't agree. I can't read Greek although I tried to Google-translate "χάραγμα" and got chart, but yeah, sure, there are a lot of stories of apocalyptic scenarios in the past and a lot of ways you can read meaning into them that probably, the original composers of these stories did not actually intend. Technology is both good and bad in many ways yes, but it's potential is vast and we should not shy away from the immense possibilities it offers us out of fears based on nonsense prophecies from a pre-rational age.
 
Malignant preternatural entities 100% objectively exist. Period. (So does their boss but that's more something to take on faith.)
Even temporarily granting that you could verify that this exists (I would argue you couldn't because it would quickly become a problem of verifying almost infinite other things simultaneously, and at best you could only hope for some probabilistic weighting of the possible explanations), how would they be malignant? Malignant from the social effect they might have on someone's behavior (that at least would be something we could agree on) or in some ultimate moral sense? In which case you would need some ultimate moral code, and absent faith, no such code exists.

I'm not necessarily saying that a case of true "possession" has never happened, but there's other explanations that don't require invoking some vague notion of spirits and all other sorts of ill-defined religious confabulations. I was thinking the other day about how the narratives that often accompany OCD might just be a post-hoc narrative on the part of the individual to explain the inability of their top-down functions to disengage from behaviors, and eventually these narratives become so intertwined that they become the causal explanation for said behavior in the individual's mind.

I think most of the time when people are dead set that they observed something supernatural, it was just an external stimulus that they either initially misinterpreted or elaborated upon after the fact, whether due to cultural or religious bias. We all know how strong the placebo effect is. And it's so convenient that the most suggestible brain states (your brain on drugs, trauma, etc) are constantly invoked as evidence for something supernatural, but I guess beggars can't be choosers.
 
I've never met anyone who has seen Bravest Warriors. I haven't seen Final Space, but I can say, WATCH BRAVEST WARRIORS.
Yup, as a lover of Adventure Time it was only matter of time before I found the even-more-random sci-fi counterpart.
I'm glad you pointed that out, because I finished season 1 of Final Space last night I came to the conclusion that it most reminded me of Bravest Warriors, probably thanks to the art style.
 
I miss psychedelics. I really do. I've recently tapered down and quit escitalopram (an SSRI), simply because I don't need it anymore. I don't feel depressed anymore. Usually I get high on GABA aganists (benzos, alcohol) and pregabalin (Lyrica). But in a way, they just dull me. The opposite of what psychedelics do.

I'm not sure I'm ready for some mindblowing trip right now, but I've been thinking of psilocybin. Especially 4-AcO-DMT I've found to be a very suitable psychedelic for me (I just don't have any access to it anymore). I recently got unemployed, and have more time than ever. I live on unemployment payment (which here in Finland is quite considerable), so I don't have any financial issues. I'm just a bit lost about what I want to do with my life. Search for a new job, or apply for PHD studies and start working on a doctoral thesis? I'm inclied for the latter. Sometimes psychedelics can be a tool for intospection. I know that psychedelics won't provide me with any ready answers, but I'm considering using them as a tool to dive into my mind to search for answers.

Crazy. I'm almost 40 and still don't know what I want to be/do when I grow up :rolleyes: If I ever grow up... If I could live by playing Psytrance, that would be nice!
 
Crazy. I'm almost 40 and still don't know what I want to be/do when I grow up :rolleyes: If I ever grow up... If I could live by playing Psytrance, that would be nice!

It's a work in progress, man! If making psytrance makes you happy, you should pursue it in your free time. Get involved in the scene, get to know people. It's all about who you know and your connections in almost any industry, particularly the music industry. Just spend time and energy doing what you love, and things will emerge. Of course you need to keep being able to support yourself, but you should be able to do both. Too much free time sucks anyway. I spend much of my free time playing music, well this past year not as much, and this past year was way worse than previous years. Instead of sitting around finding ways to waste time, I spend my time doing something I love that furthers my musician goals, and it's the best. I am busy most of the time, but it's a better way to live life.
 
I miss psychedelics. I really do. I've recently tapered down and quit escitalopram (an SSRI), simply because I don't need it anymore. I don't feel depressed anymore. Usually I get high on GABA aganists (benzos, alcohol) and pregabalin (Lyrica). But in a way, they just dull me. The opposite of what psychedelics do.

I'm not sure I'm ready for some mindblowing trip right now, but I've been thinking of psilocybin. Especially 4-AcO-DMT I've found to be a very suitable psychedelic for me (I just don't have any access to it anymore). I recently got unemployed, and have more time than ever. I live on unemployment payment (which here in Finland is quite considerable), so I don't have any financial issues. I'm just a bit lost about what I want to do with my life. Search for a new job, or apply for PHD studies and start working on a doctoral thesis? I'm inclied for the latter. Sometimes psychedelics can be a tool for intospection. I know that psychedelics won't provide me with any ready answers, but I'm considering using them as a tool to dive into my mind to search for answers.

Crazy. I'm almost 40 and still don't know what I want to be/do when I grow up :rolleyes: If I ever grow up... If I could live by playing Psytrance, that would be nice!
I somewhat identify, although I am a bit younger, and fortuitously do still have access to psychedelics... But I haven't felt in a good enough headspace to trip for quite a long time - at least without a dissociative on hand which somehow feels dirtier, although that could be just some ingrained prejudice against drugs that I find very habituating... and even when I do trip it's been rarely properly planned, more just sporadic and random, and I've rarely been fully relaxed, so somehow most of them have just felt they're missing something.

You're fortunate to live in Finland for sure, one of if not the most progressive welfare states in the world (and I don't use the word "welfare" derogatively in any way - people should have a comfortable standard of living if they cannot or just choose not to work - this isn't the stone age where not to work was hurting your tribe... capitalism in the present day is barbaric).

I don't know how long you've been on SSRIs, I'm presuming longer than me, but I've been on sertraline for a short while and recently decided to abort this bad experiment because they have done nothing for me except make me apathetic and fatigued enough to try to compensate with far more drugs than I was doing before. Curious if escitalopram helped you, and how long you were on it for?

I hope to soon be unemployed, and hopefully - some as yet unrealised things to go well - to be financially OK for a while despite that, and I have no real plans but I don't think it really matters. It's a myth that we're supposed to know what we want out of life, none of us really do, we try things and if we're lucky find something enjoyable enough to make it our purpose for being alive. I'm sure if you have the freedom to lean into playing psytrance then why not go for it? Upload some stuff to soundcloud or something, I dunno, try to get some followers if you feel like making it into a living, or even if you don't, creating beautiful art that invokes altered states in others is a worthwhile purpose to living in itself, even absent the capitalistic bullshit that I just accidentally, involuntarily forgot myself and tried to bring up.

If I were you and the option was a job but I didn't know what job would make me happy or to study, and I knew what I wanted to study interested me and would bring me some fulfilment and happiness... I would definitely go for the latter option. I probably will need to get some kind of job eventually when I've finished up with my current one but if and when I figure out how to have enough money to not need one, I hope to go back to study of some kind myself.
 
aasda
I somewhat identify, although I am a bit younger, and fortuitously do still have access to psychedelics... But I haven't felt in a good enough headspace to trip for quite a long time - at least without a dissociative on hand which somehow feels dirtier, although that could be just some ingrained prejudice against drugs that I find very habituating... and even when I do trip it's been rarely properly planned, more just sporadic and random, and I've rarely been fully relaxed, so somehow most of them have just felt they're missing something.

I love dissociatives. I've used and abused ketamine quite a lot sporadically, but because of covid, it's really hard to get anything here. If I would get my hands on ketamine, I would probably abuse it again. I find it's a very addictive substance, at least for me. I mean it's possible to get for me but it's insanely expensive right now. Shrooms and LSD would be easy to get, but I'm not sure if I'm in the right mindset for that...yet.

You're fortunate to live in Finland for sure, one of if not the most progressive welfare states in the world (and I don't use the word "welfare" derogatively in any way - people should have a comfortable standard of living if they cannot or just choose not to work - this isn't the stone age where not to work was hurting your tribe... capitalism in the present day is barbaric).

I agree totally. I'm not entitled to this generous unemployment benefit forever though, but for a year or so still. So it feels like I have a year to think about what I want to do in the future. I know there are many people in society that think I'm a leech right now, living on other people's taxes. Well, I worked 15 years and paid my taxes. Fortunately I was a member of a trade union, hence the quite generous benefits I now enjoy.

I don't know how long you've been on SSRIs, I'm presuming longer than me, but I've been on sertraline for a short while and recently decided to abort this bad experiment because they have done nothing for me except make me apathetic and fatigued enough to try to compensate with far more drugs than I was doing before. Curious if escitalopram helped you, and how long you were on it for?

I've used various SSRI's for a long time (15+ years). There have been periods when I haven't used them though. It did help, when my depression was at its worst. But I don't feel like I need them anymore. If I for some reason would get extreme anxiety, I do have benzos and pregabalin at hand. But I've been heavily addicted to benzos in the past and have gone through some horrible and miserable withdrawals from them. So I have to be extremely careful with GABA agonists.

If I were you and the option was a job but I didn't know what job would make me happy or to study, and I knew what I wanted to study interested me and would bring me some fulfilment and happiness... I would definitely go for the latter option. I probably will need to get some kind of job eventually when I've finished up with my current one but if and when I figure out how to have enough money to not need one, I hope to go back to study of some kind myself.

I do miss studies. I loved studying at the university (sociology and anthropology). It was interesting and inspiring. That's why I'm considering contuinuing my studies. A doctoral thesis is of course a big project, and I'm still not completely sure what the subject would be. That's something I'm working on though.

It's a work in progress, man! If making psytrance makes you happy, you should pursue it in your free time. Get involved in the scene, get to know people. It's all about who you know and your connections in almost any industry, particularly the music industry. Just spend time and energy doing what you love, and things will emerge. Of course you need to keep being able to support yourself, but you should be able to do both. Too much free time sucks anyway. I spend much of my free time playing music, well this past year not as much, and this past year was way worse than previous years. Instead of sitting around finding ways to waste time, I spend my time doing something I love that furthers my musician goals, and it's the best. I am busy most of the time, but it's a better way to live life.

It's just that...While music is a huge passion and inspiration for me, pursuing that path seems so distant. Especially now in these covid times. You don't earn many bucks by playing or producing a very marginal music genre. It's definitely something I will continue doing, but I honestly don't see myself making a living on it. Very few do.

The thing is that, this phase in life won't last forever. While I'm managing financially right now, after a year or so I do need more income. Of course, I could apply for some shitty job just to make a living. But is that how I want to live my life? Nope.

I completely understand that people who work long hours love free time. I also did when I worked. But now, when I don't have anything but free time, it definitely sucks. I'm lonely and basically have no friends.
 
I worked 16 hours yesterday.... and I tend to work seven 12s in the summer, all summer....
Free time is so alien to me, I become instantly lethargic. Drugs and sometimes videogames are my only hobbies. I don't even get to enjoy those too often.
When the winter started and I went to a tendency to have more normal work weeks, or at least working less total hours in said weeks, my free time started to drive me utterly insane. What is my purpose? What do I do? Who the fuck am I?
Drives my girl crazy cuz after not seeing me all summer (not only do I work long hours, but I often live at man-camps) I can't even stop pacing around the house to watch a movie or spend time with her. I'm just the worst!
 
People act like intrusions into the brain are some kind of sacrilege, technology gone too far, "playing god", or whatever. People once said that steam locomotives would cause women to spontaneously abort with the noise. To me, and no offence intended - this is luddite nonsense. We already use technology to change ourselves. What about cochlear implants for the deaf? Retinal implants for the blind (low resolution though they might be right now)? We already use technology as an extension of our minds, our ability to truly learn has declined with the advent of mobile devices because we can just look stuff up - but it's also lead to a far more connected world.
Later for this, but
I tried to Google-translate "χάραγμα" and got chart
Maybe, but I'm talking about Koiné Greek, the "common" (and that is what "Κοινή" means) language of the Eastern Roman Empire around the time of Christ. The meaning of the word is going to change over 2,000 years to Modern Greek. (And had already, Koiné is different from Classical Greek.)
I am very interested in this if now is a time you would tell that story.
OK.

Story theme:



I'm going to preface this by saying a few things. In fact, the preface is probably going to be longer than the story. First, this is not a first person account, but it is from sources that I would consider unimpeachable. I would not believe this story otherwise. I would chalk it up to drug induced delusions with a side dose of shenanigans committed against the teller. However, I do not believe that to be a plausible explanation on reflection. I do not have a reasonable explanation for this story, which is why it is exceptional. Now, I am well-known here for absolutely denying any special agency to drugs, or to the idea of information being transmitted thereby much less drugs being attached to "spirits" or any sort of consciousness. My view of drugs is entirely reductionistic. Keep this in mind as I tell you this.

So this is not a story about "plant spirits" that live in ayahuasca. This is a story about, perhaps, brujos (I believe that is the correct term) performing spiritual fuckery or an elaborate pia fraus. Now, how so if I just said I don't believe in the plant spirits? As I mentioned above, I do believe in the existence of spirits beyond our realm, some of which have our best interests at heart, some of which don't. I further believe that they can intrude on people's lives if given an opening, and that drugs, particularly taken in some kind of putatively spiritual context, can provide a way in. But it is not the drugs themselves. Similarly, malign preternaturalities have been known to bother (or worse) people who use Ouija boards. There is certainly nothing about a Ouija board that is supernatural, they were created by a toy company as a toy. They have no organically developed history as a tool of divination so they're even further removed than ayahuasca. But given the way that people approach them, they became a possible conduit. Ditto for drugs.

Now, on to the show. This is a story about a young woman sojourning in Peru and doing a metric fuckton of drugs (ongoing throughout the story), including a number of ayahuasca ceremonies. After having done several, the brujo gave her a certain amulet, saying to her that it would give her spiritual power, or something of that nature*. She accepted it and his blessing. Thereafter, she began to be troubled by certain recurring dreams, had animals acting strangely around her, and felt a general sense of doom along with a healthy number of other strange occurrences. She came to believe that the amulet was responsible (she may have consulted another brujo at this point but I am not sure.) Thus, she decided to be rid of it, threw it away, went about her day unmolested by any sort of troublesome phenomena, and then went to sleep.

She awoke to find the amulet under her pillow. Now, really scared, she tried to be rid of it by various more elaborate means, but would wake again to find it somewhere in her personal effects. This cycle repeated itself a number of times. If you think this sounds like something out of a fantasy novel or Dungeons & Dragons (where "cursed" magical items do just this) you are about right. This continued to happen until she sought out yet another brujo who performed what amounted to an exorcism on her and told her that she then had to give him the amulet as a gift in a sort of formal way and he had to freely accept it in a ritualistic manner in order to be rid of it. This she did, rested well, and eventually got on a plane and made her way back to the United States. She never saw the amulet, nor did she have any truck with ayahuasca again.

I do not blame you if you do not believe this but it is true. Perhaps the third most obvious explanation would be one of the brujos somehow sneaking into her room and replacing the amulet, but this would require him to be following her constantly and to retrieve it from various increasingly out-of-the-way places. Now, some of them are really sketchy dudes, and I would absolutely believe in them doing something like this, but it's just implausible on it's face when you think of what he would have to be able to do in order to replace it repeatedly.

The second most obvious explanation, of course, is that this young woman was on hardcore drugs (true) and imagined the whole thing (unlikely.) Unlikely as this went on for quite an extended period of time, because she was a fairly stable person, and because it involved the objective fact of the item returning to her possession after she discarded it, both facts apparently attested to by third parties.

The most obvious explanation, of course, is that this story is a lie, either a pia fraus (pious fraud; a lie told to promote one's religious beliefs) or a plea for attention. I don't believe this based on the psychology of the people involved. She was neither the hysterical type nor trying to promote shamanism (nor did she subscribe to another religion that denigrated it and thus possibly wish to scare people away.)

Other possible naturalistic explanations involve her going into some kind of bizarre fugue state. This is the only one that I can't entirely discard, but if this is the case, it is a pretty strange story anyway, and fugue states are pretty ill-understood, still inviting a variety of possible explanations.

I do not know what to make of this story. I am not offering it as evidence of anything as such, but it is one of the most disturbing and inexplicable things that I have ever heard, and not just in my drug career. And please remember that it is me telling you this. I am not given to flights of fancy in interpreting the drug world.

(*Here's another story about drug-related "spiritual power" not working out so great.)
Having benzos at hand is also the sound thing to do with a first timer. I've never had to use them to calm myself, but i ALWAYS have benzos with me
I used to find that just having them there was beneficial.
Even temporarily granting that you could verify that this exists (I would argue you couldn't because it would quickly become a problem of verifying almost infinite other things simultaneously, and at best you could only hope for some probabilistic weighting of the possible explanations),
The way you "verify" this kind of thing is by trying to rule out entirely naturalistic explanations for ambiguous phenomena, and looking for phenomena that simply do not admit naturalistic explanations. When I mentioned having encountered "possession" in the mentally ill, I won't disclose patient details as such, but the kind of thing that would suggest this as a possible explanation is someone with intermittent, very extreme psychotic episodes, often involving religious content, which do not respond to treatment whatsoever (including requiring extremely, extremely high doses of benzos and antipsychotics just as an attempt to sedate the person if they work at all.) There are plenty of naturalistic explanations for that. Psych meds do not always work, and there are a variety of extreme states people can get into. Religion is a very common topic for delusions in schizophrenics as well.

But if you add in things like this person being able to speak about details of the lives of his caregivers which he would patently have no way to know about, and the ability to speak languages that he had no way of knowing (say, Ecclesiastical Latin), all while manifesting an aversion to religious objects, then you are starting to confound normal explanation. As you put it, "probabilistic weighing of the possible explanations," yes, but this, and perhaps the amulet story (to I think admittedly a lesser extent) are truly difficult to explain naturally. The situation with the psych patient, which I have seen firsthand, is what is known to Christians as "demonic possession," the amulet, which I haven't, "demonic oppression" i.e. persistent preternatural harassment. Stalking, if you will.

Admittedly I do not subscribe to a reductionistic view of the human soul and so would admit demonic possession as an extremely, extremely, extremely unlikely but nonetheless not utterly inconceivable possibility when looking at a clinical case, but the vanishingly few times I encountered this sort of thing I was neither Catholic nor particularly interested in religion, so it is unlikely that this colored my perceptions.
how would they be malignant? Malignant from the social effect they might have on someone's behavior (that at least would be something we could agree on) or in some ultimate moral sense? In which case you would need some ultimate moral code, and absent fsaith, no such code exists.
Certainly malignant from their effect on people. Teleological morality is of course a highly debated subject. But these things aren't nice. Now, I also believe in the existence of correspondingly benevolent spiritual entities, but that is a rather different subject. They do not seem to have a tendency to manifest themselves in human affairs in such a striking manner as frequently (although they do) as the baddies.
 
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Later for this, but

Maybe, but I'm talking about Koiné Greek, the "common" (and that is what "Κοινή" means) language of the Eastern Roman Empire around the time of Christ. The meaning of the word is going to change over 2,000 years to Modern Greek. (And had already, Koiné is different from Classical Greek.)

OK.

Story theme:



I'm going to preface this by saying a few things. In fact, the preface is probably going to be longer than the story. First, this is not a first person account, but it is from sources that I would consider unimpeachable. I would not believe this story otherwise. I would chalk it up to drug induced delusions with a side dose of shenanigans committed against the teller. However, I do not believe that to be a plausible explanation on reflection. I do not have a reasonable explanation for this story, which is why it is exceptional. Now, I am well-known here for absolutely denying any special agency to drugs, or to the idea of information being transmitted thereby much less drugs being attached to "spirits" or any sort of consciousness. My view of drugs is entirely reductionistic. Keep this in mind as I tell you this.

So this is not a story about "plant spirits" that live in ayahuasca. This is a story about, perhaps, brujos (I believe that is the correct term) performing spiritual fuckery or an elaborate pia fraus. Now, how so if I just said I don't believe in the plant spirits? As I mentioned above, I do believe in the existence of spirits beyond our realm, some of which have our best interests at heart, some of which don't. I further believe that they can intrude on people's lives if given an opening, and that drugs, particularly taken in some kind of putatively spiritual context, can provide a way in. But it is not the drugs themselves. Similarly, malign preternaturalities have been known to bother (or worse) people who use Ouija boards. There is certainly nothing about a Ouija board that is supernatural, they were created by a toy company as a toy. They have no organically developed history as a tool of divination. But given the way that people approach them, they became a possible conduit. Ditto for drugs.

Now, on to the show. This is a story about a young woman sojourning in Peru and doing a metric fuckton of drugs (ongoing throughout the story), including a number of ayahuasca ceremonies. After having done several, the brujo gave her a certain amulet, saying to her that it would give her spiritual power, or something of that nature*. She accepted it and his blessing. Thereafter, she began to be troubled by certain recurring dreams, had animals acting strangely around her, and felt a general sense of doom along with a healthy number of other strange occurrences. She came to believe that the amulet was responsible (she may have consulted another brujo at this point but I am not sure.) Thus, she decided to be rid of it, threw it away, went about her day unmolested by any sort of troublesome phenomena, and then went to sleep.

She awoke to find the amulet under her pillow. Now, really scared, she tried to be rid of it by various more elaborate means, but would wake again to find it somewhere in her personal effects. This cycle repeated itself a number of times. If you think this sounds like something out of a fantasy novel or Dungeons & Dragons (where "cursed" magical items do just this) you are about right. This continued to happen until she sought out yet another brujo who performed what amounted to an exorcism on her and told her that she then had to give him the amulet as a gift in a sort of formal way and he had to freely accept it in a ritualistic manner in order to be rid of it. This she did, rested well, and eventually got on a plane and made her way back to the United States. She never saw the amulet, nor did she have any truck with ayahuasca again.

I do not blame you if you do not believe this but it is true. Perhaps the third most obvious explanation would be one of the brujos somehow sneaking into her room and replacing the amulet, but this would require him to be following her constantly and to retrieve it from various increasingly out-of-the-way places. Now, some of them are really sketchy dudes, and I would absolutely believe in them doing something like this, but it's just implausible on it's face when you think of what he would have to be able to do in order to replace it repeatedly.

The second most obvious explanation, of course, is that this young woman was on hardcore drugs (true) and imagined the whole thing (unlikely.) Unlikely as this went on for quite an extended period of time, because she was a fairly stable person, and because it involved the objective fact of the item returning to her possession after she discarded it, both facts apparently attested to by third parties.

The most obvious explanation, of course, is that this story is a lie, either a pia fraus (pious fraud; a lie told to promote one's religious beliefs) or a plea for attention. I don't believe this based on the psychology of the people involved. She was neither the hysterical type nor trying to promote shamanism (nor did she subscribe to another religion that denigrated it and thus possibly wish to scare people away.)

Other possible naturalistic explanations involve her going into some kind of bizarre fugue state. This is the only one that I can't entirely discard, but if this is the case, it is a pretty strange story anyway, and fugue states are pretty ill-understood, still inviting a variety of possible explanations.

I do not know what to make of this story. I am not offering it as evidence of anything as such, but it is one of the most disturbing and inexplicable things that I have ever heard, and not just in my drug career. And please remember that it is me telling you this. I am not given to flights of fancy in interpreting the drug world.

(*Here's another story about drug-related "spiritual power" not working out so great.)

I used to find that just having them there was beneficial.

The way you "verify" this kind of thing is by trying to rule out entirely naturalistic explanations for ambiguous phenomena, and looking for phenomena that simply do not admit naturalistic explanations. When I mentioned having encountered "possession" in the mentally ill, I won't disclose patient details as such, but the kind of thing that would suggest this as a possible explanation is someone with intermittent, very extreme psychotic episodes, often involving religious content, which do not respond to treatment whatsoever (including requiring extremely, extremely high doses of benzos and antipsychotics just as an attempt to sedate the person if they work at all.) There are plenty of naturalistic explanations for that. Psych meds do not always work, and there are a variety of extreme states people can get into. Religion is a very common topic for delusions in schizophrenics as well.

But if you add in things like this person being able to speak about details of the lives of his caregivers which he would patently have no way to know about, and the ability to speak languages that he had no way of knowing (say, Ecclesiastical Latin), all while manifesting an aversion to religious objects, then you are starting to confound normal explanation. As you put it, "probabilistic weighing of the possible explanations," yes, but this, and perhaps the amulet story (to I think admittedly a lesser extent) are truly difficult to explain naturally. The situation with the psych patient, which I have seen firsthand, is what is known to Christians as "demonic possession," the amulet, which I haven't, "demonic oppression."

Admittedly I do not subscribe to a reductionistic view of the human soul and so would admit demonic possession as a possibility when looking at a clinical case, but the vanishingly few times I encountered this sort of thing I was neither Catholic nor particularly interested in religion, so it is unlikely that this colored my perceptions.

Certainly malignant from their effect on people. Teleological morality is of course a highly debated subject. But these things aren't nice. Now, I also believe in the existence of correspondingly benevolent spiritual entities, but that is a rather different subject. They do not seem to have a tendency to manifest themselves in human affairs in such a striking manner.

Can you recommend a benevolent entity to try to reach out to, I've only been able to get in touch with dark goddesses who are apparently benevolent but not really
 
Can you recommend a benevolent entity to try to reach out to, I've only been able to get in touch with dark goddesses who are apparently benevolent but not really
Evil spirits fear the even the mere mention of the name of Jesus Christ (and His Mother), and things like the Cross (sign of the cross or a physical one) or Rosary or just the Lord's Prayer. Like, all this stuff scares the shit out of them. They know that their time on earth to perform their fuckery is limited and that He is coming some day and they don't like to be reminded of that. Not one bit. St. Michael the Archangel too, you could try "Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; And do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen."

Interesting fact: people's encounters with what they believed to be UFO abductors have been terminated by mentioning the Name of Jesus.
 
Evil spirits fear the even the mere mention of the name of Jesus Christ, and things like the Cross or Rosary and the Lord's Prayer. Like, it scares the shit out of them. They know that their time on earth to perform their fuckery is limited and that He is coming some day and they don't like to be reminded of them. St. Michael the Archangel too, you could try "Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; And do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen."

Interesting fact: people's encounters with what they believed to be UFO abductors have been terminated by mentioning the Name of Jesus.
Never got a response from Jesus, nothing in the way of kali ma or anything. I also take serious offense to the religion.
 
The only entity I ever blatantly encountered was on ayahuasca. I was at home and during the purge stage I was in my bathroom.
The entity came out of the bottom of my toilet. It was this alien nautilus cuttlefish scallop that telepathically told me to let go of all my attachments.
NautyCuttleScallop had great advice, I agreed outloud, vomited my guts out, and then felt an amazing wave of euphoria. Guess I found a good one. Sorta figured it was like..... my spirit animal or something?
In the end it became sort of a joke. NautyCuttleScallop says, "don't fight this, just let it happen" o_O

Other than that I saw peripheral shadow folk while on MXE.... not at all sure what to make of those guys.....
 
Too much free time for me unfortunately results in alcohol, benzos and pregabalin. Definitely not productive, more like destructive. That's why I really need to seriously consider how I want to use all the free time in a productive way. And no, I don't mean a capitalistic view of being productive (ie making money), more like how I want to live my life in a fulfilling way.
 
Well, this isn't really the place for the religious debate thing, I suppose. I don't see a scenario in which my "preaching" here would be helpful to anyone (although anyone who has a question about this perspective on things, please ask.) As for drug entities, I think the vast (like, really vast) majority of the time, they're just not real, a subconscious projection. As I mentioned I think it's entirely possible that a real spiritual being might show up, there is no particular reason why a "good one" couldn't show up, but they're not really known for doing that. The bad ones are very much known for disguising themselves as good ones though.
 
It's just that...While music is a huge passion and inspiration for me, pursuing that path seems so distant. Especially now in these covid times. You don't earn many bucks by playing or producing a very marginal music genre. It's definitely something I will continue doing, but I honestly don't see myself making a living on it. Very few do.

It's not just about money though, I mean I am in a semi-successful, emerging and touring band (no touring this year but in 2019 we played in 5 states and would do weeks on the road at a time sometimes), but I make my money doing other stuff. But I work in computers so I am remote and can work on the road. My point is, I don't make any money playing music, but I absolutely love it, it's its own reward, it makes my life richer and takes up my free time and makes me feel a great joy for life. And the hope is that one day I will be able to make my living with it, or at least add to my income with it, while doing something I love.

Too much free time for me unfortunately results in alcohol, benzos and pregabalin. Definitely not productive, more like destructive. That's why I really need to seriously consider how I want to use all the free time in a productive way. And no, I don't mean a capitalistic view of being productive (ie making money), more like how I want to live my life in a fulfilling way.

That's just it... for me, too, when I have too much free time, I abuse drugs and generally self destruct. That's why being involved in music is so rewarding for me, well, one of the reasons. When I spend most of my free time making music, I am fulfilled and although the music world is intertwined with drugs to a large extent, my usage patterns are more responsible and more, I guess, supplemental, a way to celebrate after shows or with friends, rather than a way to kill boredom when I'm sitting around the house with nothing to do, which is what always leads me to bad places with drugs. I try to arrange my days so that when I am not working, I am either hanging out with friends or my girlfriend (mostly my girlfriend during COVID), and hiking, working on the house, etc, or I am working on my music. This leaves only a little downtime, and when there is only a little downtime, it's nice to have it. When I have too much downtime is when it becomes a bad thing.
 
I can't read Greek although I tried to Google-translate "χάραγμα" and got chart
Maybe, but I'm talking about Koiné Greek, the "common" (and that is what "Κοινή" means) language of the Eastern Roman Empire around the time of Christ. The meaning of the word is going to change over 2,000 years to Modern Greek. (And had already, Koiné is different from Classical Greek.)
OK, sooo.... "χάραγμα" means...? :)

As for drug entities, I think the vast (like, really vast) majority of the time, they're just not real, a subconscious projection. As I mentioned I think it's entirely possible that a real spiritual being might show up, there is no particular reason why a "good one" couldn't show up, but they're not really known for doing that. The bad ones are very much known for disguising themselves as good ones though.
Major sobriety bias here, IMO. ;) In response to your first sentence - spiritual beings are paranormal phenomena, not perceptible from a state of baseline, regular consciousness. I will make no statements about the objective existence of these beings, except that there is no way to verify it one way or the other, but that is not relevant here. The only states in which spiritual beings, ie, entities, not of this world, or rather this baseline plane of material reality accessible to us incarnate, material beings - but some undefined otherrealm, the "spirit realm", let's say, since "spiritual being" is a descriptor you've used - is if the perceiver is in a highly abnormal state of consciousness.

Whether it is drug induced is irrelevant. The very fact that an otherworldly, presumed "spiritual" being, can be perceived, is evidence of the altered state that the perceiver has entered into. There are many ways other than drugs to enter such a state of course, but I see no reason to assume that "drug entities" are any more or less likely to be more "real" than a subconscious projection, than other "entities of the spirit world", so to speak.

As far as the rest - "good spiritual beings" aren't truly known for doing anything, we don't know that they exist. Same goes for the bad ones, unless you're talking mythology in both cases, in which case, I won't dispute it, I'm not a theologian, perhaps you're correct. But regardless - it's no more or less possible that any spiritual being could show up in a drug induced hallucination compared to just a hallucination, spontaneous, symptomatic of psychosis, sleep deprivation, or any other abnormal glitch in our experience of reality, rationally explicable in some way, or not. And I don't intend this to be a religious debate of any sort, as I say, if you're talking mythology, fine, I won't contest it.

But as for "drug entities" being somehow less real than any other perception of an entity which we can usually not perceive, courtesy of them possibly existing in a realm that we have no truly objective method to access, except through states of consciousness which are, by definition, abnormal, courtesy of the fact that this perception - real or not - would be equally well defined as a mere "hallucination" - drug induced or not. I see no logic in that.
 
I don’t believe in either but objectively demons seem even less likely than plant spirits.
A plant, being a living thing, why wouldn’t it have a spirit when other living things do? Indigenous people have believed in animism for longer than organized religion has been around.
 
OK, sooo.... "χάραγμα" means...? :)
charagma: a stamp, impress
Original Word: χάραγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: charagma
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ag-mah)
Definition: a stamp, impress
Usage: sculpture; engraving, a stamp, sign.

5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").

[Ancient documents were validated by such stamps or seals (see Plutarch, Agesilaus, 15:6; De Lysandro 16:2, ala DNTT, 2, 574).]
From here, right in the top Google results, my dude. Usual translation in the Bible is "mark" but the other definitions are more enlightening. I'll respond to your longer post at longer length, but no, I'm not positing that any modern technology is the "mark of the beast," just pointing out why people might think that.
Major sobriety bias here, IMO. ;) In response to your first sentence - spiritual beings are paranormal phenomena, not perceptible from a state of baseline, regular consciousness. I will make no statements about the objective existence of these beings, except that there is no way to verify it one way or the other, but that is not relevant here. The only states in which spiritual beings, ie, entities, not of this world, or rather this baseline plane of material reality accessible to us incarnate, material beings - but some undefined otherrealm, the "spirit realm", let's say, since "spiritual being" is a descriptor you've used - is if the perceiver is in a highly abnormal state of consciousness.
Here's where you and I depart. Yes, spiritual beings are "paranormal" (I would say "preternatural") but that doesn't mean they can only be encountered in an altered state of consciousness. There just isn't an equivalence between these two things. Now, as most disagreements do, this boils down to the definition of a word. Perceiving a paranormal phenomenon does not, eo ipso, mean one is in an altered state of consciousness unless you define an altered state of consciousness to include any and all perceptions of paranormal phenomena to constitute an altered state of consciousness. As drug users know, there are all sorts of indicia of altered states. Now, some things like temporal lobe epilepsy that are associated with perceiving paranormal phenomena are very much altered states, but I wouldn't be too quick to make that equivalency.
that "drug entities" are any more or less likely to be more "real" than a subconscious projection, than other "entities of the spirit world", so to speak.
I would start by seeing if they are associated with any paranormal phenomena to use your terminology or symptoms of possession or oppression to use explicitly Christian terminology.
As far as the rest - "good spiritual beings" aren't truly known for doing anything, we don't know that they exist.Same goes for the bad ones, unless you're talking mythology in both cases, in which case, I won't dispute it, I'm not a theologian, perhaps you're correct
I didn't say that. I said that they did not usually manifest themselves in dramatic phenomena like what is called "demonic possession" (which phenomenon is an undoubtedly real thing, even if that's not what it actually is.) There are very dramatic phenomena associated with "good spiritual beings" (more) but sadly in our lives it would appear we are more likely to encounter a bad one in dramatic manifestation than a good one in the same. This is very much not to say that we don't have them acting on our lives, but that goes beyond the scope that we are agreeing to here.But
regardless - it's no more or less possible that any spiritual being could show up in a drug induced hallucination compared to just a hallucination, spontaneous, symptomatic of psychosis, sleep deprivation, or any other abnormal glitch in our experience of reality, rationally explicable in some way, or not.

as for "drug entities" being somehow less real than any other perception of an entity which we can usually not perceive, courtesy of them possibly existing in a realm that we have no truly objective method to access, except through states of consciousness which are, by definition, abnormal, courtesy of the fact that this perception - real or not - would be equally well defined as a mere "hallucination" - drug induced or not. I see no logic in that.
What I'm saying, highly specifically and more formally, is that any (a) paranormal phenomenon that is more than a mere hallucination is not solely drug induced and (b) drugs never induce paranormal phenomena by themselves. If you don't believe in paranormal phenomena at all, that's something you should be able to agree with, with the caveat that the set of phenomena conforming to proposition "(a)" is nil. If you do believe drugs, as such, can induce paranormal phenomena, then we disagree.
And I don't intend this to be a religious debate of any sort, as I say, if you're talking mythology, fine, I won't contest it.
I'm trying not to let religious dogma as such define what I'm trying to say, and I hope I'm succeeding.
 
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