Opioids Opiates dont seem addictive to me- addictive potential exaggerated?

[xxkcxx]

To clarify:

Yes, WD's suck. They suck donkey balls. But I do not believe that WD's are that magical point in opioid use when you've fucked your life to no return. I think that point is much more psychological than physical.

I completely agree.

I clean up for a 5-day periods every two weeks before I see my probation officer. It's easy for me to do it, well, one because I'd rather not see jail again, but also cause psychologically I know that when those 5 (excruciating) days are over, I will be back on my DOC.

The thought crosses my mind every single time that I want this to be over with. Not because of wds, cause I usually have suboxone to get me through those, but just because I'm pretty tired of the lifestyle. But that never happens, and I always go back. When it gets down to the day or two before, I'm ringing someone up making plans because 3 days clean makes me forget how much the active use sucks and by the time I get sucked back in, I find myself unable to get out again until forced to.

 

[Johnny blue]

To clarify:

Yes, WD's suck. They suck donkey balls. But I do not believe that WD's are that magical point in opioid use when you've fucked your life to no return. I think that point is much more psychological than physical.

Ok I misunderstood your position then. Surely wd isn't the point of no return. I don't believe there's ever a point of no return. Point being that when you're at the point where wd begins the affects are negative on your life. You may miss work a few times for example. The importance of other things become over shadowed even for a short time because you have to either use or wd. Both can cost you money and have an impact on your life and to me that is a big deal. In a nutshell IME reliability isn't exactly a priority. The less time you use the easier it is of course but you have to go through a rebuilding period that otherwise, obviously wouldn't exist.

I wholeheartedly agree. Opiate use is never all well and good untill you reach wd, its really just not as bad. The whole idea of this thread is ignorance at its finest. I only hope the op actually knows that now.

 

[OverDriven]

Hi I've been using opiates for about a year now and the one thing that strikes me is that they do NOT in the slightest seem addictive to me.

Anyone else see the extreme irony?

 

[Binge Artist]

Anyone else see the extreme irony?

Lol, I've been showering daily...for several years...and it doesn't seem the least bit addictive.

In all seriousness, I think the OP was trying to say that even though he uses a lot, he doesn't feel like he HAS to.

 

[Le Junk]

Your in for trouble if you continue with this kinda thinking. I just retired from opiates after a 4-5 year run, and only with the help of Suboxone (terrific, miracle drug, BTW). I sounded just like you when I first started using. I used them as a crutch when coming off of a cocaine or ecstasy run, especially the day after. They were an immediate mood and energy elevator. Now, I can definitely understand why you don't get any euphoria from your opiates.....your using oxycodone and not hydrocodone. Completely different highs. Personally, I can't stand oxycodone, but I got everything I ever wanted out of hydrocodone. Relaxed, euphoric, chatty, warm and fuzzy. Oxycodone just made me energetic and to be honest, a little hostile at times. Anyway, in the beginning it was just like you said, a light recreational thing that I definitely had control over. I'd take one yellow 10/325 Vantage pharma brand or one white 10/325 Mallinkrt brand a day or every other. I've always been quality control freek when it comes to my drugs. And speaking of which, all of the other hydro's suck, especially the readily available blue 10/500 Watson 540's (absolutely awful, ghetto buzz!). I'm getting a lil' off track here, but the jist of the story is what started as just one every other day, slowly became 1 a day, then 2, then I'd party and be up all night doin' coke, so then I'd take 3 and so on. I thought I had total control in the beginning, but as others have mentioned, it's DEFINITELY a creeper addiction. By the time my opiate addiction had run it's course, I was taking 6-7 a day! And I always use to say I had full control over opiates. The point I'm making here is that you should repect the drug and respect the user reports and studies. Your not 1 in a billion you know. It can and will happen to you. You need to decide now whether or not it's something you want to live with or leave behind because I can promise you with 100% certainty that if you continue using opiates on a regular basis, you WILL become addicted to them. I wish you the best and hope you take what I've said seriously.

Le Junk.....been there, done that a million times!

 

[Ivan420]

Sorry. That's nice of you and all, but this heroin addict doesn't need your pity

Thats exactly what i thought when i read his post.

To the OP: Nobody here is asking for you sympathy or that you empathize for heroin/opiate addicts. In fact i think its impossible to truly empathize with an addict unless you have experienced addiction yourself, and the notion that you understand us is what offends me. What makes opiates so addictive is that when you first start, they do not seem to be addictive at all. This leads a person to justify their use and increasing their frequency of use and dosage. Yet you do not feel addicted at all, and slowly but surely opiates become part of your everyday routine. You cannot truly realize the addiction potential of opiates until you yourself are addicted, and often will not realize that your addicted until you dont have them and find yourself in the pains of withdrawl.

 

[paranoid android]

The OP sounds a good bit like me only alot more naive. Im a alcoholic (i have a hangover right now actually ), drank myself blind in the past, smoked crack on and off like it was nothing and i never cared for it really, I smoke a pack of ciggs a day, had a 3 month mazzies binge that i somehow got out of unscaved, etc.

I first tried opiates when i was maybe 13 or 14 i can't really remember. I had codeine at first and then demerol. I loved the high but didnt have any problem controlling it. When i was 20 i was getting loads of opiate pills and would only use every now and then. Id take some when i got home from work and would only get high once a day at most. I had way more pills then i could use at that point. Now those bottles and bottles of pills would last me a few days.

Fast forward a few years and i develop a serious chronic pain condition and my bipolar gets really crazy. Medical use turned to getting high and getting high turned to staying high on the nod as long as fucking possible. It still took a good 3 months of heavy oxy use to devolop a addiction but i'll never forget the first time i woke up dopesick.

Right now im run out of morphine for the past week and ive been climbing the walls. I got off easy on the physical part but right now my head is raging. My nerves are shot to hell, im half suicidal, my skin is still crawlin and i feel like im developing schizophrenia.

So if you think it can't get you then think again. I always knew it would get me sooner or later i was just wondering how long it would take.

 

[Khadijah]

Ha ha ha ha ha....Aw man, It never gets old......Gotta love the newjacks


Thanks for my entertainment for the day,original poster

Good luck with that 8)

 

[Le Junk]

I always knew it would get me sooner or later i was just wondering how long it would take.

Exactly! Same here.

Le Junk....recovering addict

 

[mdmantpa]

Ha ha ha ha ha....Aw man, It never gets old......Gotta love the newjacks


Thanks for my entertainment for the day,original poster

Good luck with that 8)

haha exactly what I was thinking. You see/hear this one too many times....and it's always the same story.

Oh this is fun/cool

Should I IV?

WOW

My veins are trashed and I spend more money than I have on dope

My life is ruined and I'm a junky

 

[bobert the man]

Youre going to be flamed here simply because almost every other person on OD has had bad experiences with addiction, especially opiate addiction. You are stating your thoughts in a very "matter of fact way" instead of being inquisitive (which is what bluelight is all about).

And for the record, it doesnt take gross irresponsibility to be addicted to opiates, and YOU KNOW THAT. Youve just come to a bunch of really supportive and intelligent people and in a way, told us you are virtually a better, stronger person.

If you want an answer, there was a year of using with no consecutive days for me before one morning I realized I could feel "relaxed" all the time, and just taper doses. A Year later I was hit in the face with full blown addiction.

This is insulting IMO. If you feel that way thats fine. But theres no reason for you to come here and ask us what you did other than to gloat. Go away please - and thank you.

 

[garuda]

Not everyone who takes opiates becomes an addict, don't be ridiculous.

Everyone is different but in general it takes a certain configuration of factors to trap you in addiction. Lack of will power is a big one but not the only one.

Let me ask you OP what would happen if your spouse/children died in an accident, or you were stricken with a painful illness, or were suicidally depressed? Now you know exactly what would help you, and you know where to get it. Would your use be so disciplined in those circumstances?

What if your life was shit, and your childhood? Would you care if you were using daily in that case?

Studies show about 1-2% of those given opiates medically long term develop an addiction, that's probably accurate to the recreational use population too.
Note addiction is different to dependence.

 

[lollerskater]

Don't feed the trolls. I don't know how many of the OP's 26 posts are in this thread, but anyone bright enough to put their shoes on the right feet in the morning knows that it was a dumb idea to put a thread like this on BL-- in the OD forum no less. It strikes me as funny that people bother to defend themselves.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Oh, my, how breathtakingly brilliant this Mr. (or should I say Dr.) Alexander is!

Who would have EVER guessed that "ghetto" (cage) rats would be more likely to become drug addicts than "suburban" (colony) rats?

See, this is why I should have become a psychologist. The field is wide open for any moron with the slightest degree of creativity to thrive.

You very much missed the point of Alexander's findings- the person in the "ghetto" may have a great support system of family and friends, be in good health and be far happier than some suburban kid whose asshole father beat him and called him a fag every day.

The idea of being in a colony is that you are content; you have all of your needs met whether they are social, physical, spiritual, whatever. When these needs aren't meant then people and animals look to relieve this distress and they often do so pharmacologically.

 

[Tchort]

The social or economic basis for addiction theory is laughable.

Opioids and Nicotine are unique. Morphine is considered the archetypal addictive substance. My own definition of addiction is the dual mechanisms of dependancy and compulsion occuring at the same time.

Aside from using the word for the sake of simplifying a conversation, I try not to use the word 'addiction' to describe compulsive use of substances that produce only compulsive use and not dependancy (stimulants), or substances that produce compulsive use and a 'pseudo-dependancy'/rebound effect (GABAgerics/downers).

binge artist: As far as opioids are concerned, dependancy is a big deal. It marks the transformation of either recreational use or compulsive use of opioids to addiction, which is a much different set of circumstances when compared to other drugs of abuse. Someone else mentioned the low incidence of iatrogenic addiction: the development of addiction in patients who require opioids medicinally. For these people, the issue is not dependancy, because dependancy is by itself almost inconsequential. This is also why a large percentage of medically dependant opioid users can end their opioid therapy when necessary with little or no problem- or effort.

I disagree with your characterization of a chipper. I guess all opioid addicts go from being a chipper to an addict, but those who put effort into staying a regular non-dependant user (already filling half of the addict scenario: compulsive use) are constantly in danger of developing dependance, which changes their use into addiction, with all of its physiological consequences. Personally, I've never met a chipper who, after becoming accidentally dependant, went back immediately to being a chipper. All I've known became typical addicts, they did not return to their former use pattern- IMHO, because of this dual nature of addiction.

To me this idea makes much more sense than addiction as a catch all word for dependancy, compulsive use, regular recreational use, or just 'Liking' something a lot. Chocolate addicts, gambling addicts, sex addicts, etc are simply people with a compulsive use problem: identical to the compulsive use problem of stimulant and depressant users, and opioid 'chippers'.

 

[Binge Artist]

You very much missed the point of Alexander's findings- the person in the "ghetto" may have a great support system of family and friends, be in good health and be far happier than some suburban kid whose asshole father beat him and called him a fag every day.
.

Ahhh, so people/rats who are completely happy and content with life are less likely to become drug addicts...Even more mind blowing

Seriously, though, psychology does seem like one of those sciences where any half-wit could become the Gauss of his field.

 

[Binge Artist]

binge artist: As far as opioids are concerned, dependancy is a big deal. It marks the transformation of either recreational use or compulsive use of opioids to addiction, which is a much different set of circumstances when compared to other drugs of abuse. Someone else mentioned the low incidence of iatrogenic addiction: the development of addiction in patients who require opioids medicinally. For these people, the issue is not dependancy, because dependancy is by itself almost inconsequential. This is also why a large percentage of medically dependant opioid users can end their opioid therapy when necessary with little or no problem- or effort.

I disagree with your characterization of a chipper. I guess all opioid addicts go from being a chipper to an addict, but those who put effort into staying a regular non-dependant user (already filling half of the addict scenario: compulsive use) are constantly in danger of developing dependance, which changes their use into addiction, with all of its physiological consequences. Personally, I've never met a chipper who, after becoming accidentally dependant, went back immediately to being a chipper. All I've known became typical addicts, they did not return to their former use pattern- IMHO, because of this dual nature of addiction.

In the first place, I just don't see how dependence can even be called a "transition." I mean, it's more of a process, which I believe starts at the first dose. You don't just use 20 times and be fine and dandy, and after the 21st dose be puking, shitting, etc. In my experience, I saw various withdrawal symptoms as sort of a "price" to be paid to the piper for use of opioids. And I would fall into usage patterns where I found some of the milder symptoms to be "worth it", and some of the more intense symptoms not to be. In other words, I would use to the point where the enjoyment was worth the subsequent misery. Sometimes, I would accidently cross that line. The remedy was to pause usage for a while.

So, I just really don't understand the point of putting in "great effort to remain a regular nondependant user". I think all those regular users are dependent, but just don't know it because their symptoms stay close to the border of imperceptability. But so what if they cross the border a little? What's a runny nose or a bit of stomach cramps? People are frequently willing to drink to the point of a hangover that would actually be much worse than those mild opioid withdrawal symptoms, and we don't necessarily call them alcoholics.

In sum, I think it's more of an "economics" problem. The addicts--you know, those whose lives have been wrecked by opiates--are analagous to buyers who overextend their credit, or who let their habit write the proverbial check that their ass can't cover.

 

[amblerg]

taking 120mg without daily use or significant tolerance would rock most people.

 

[purepremium]

I've been looking for a thread like this and I'm glad I actually found it. I just want to share my $.02

I've been taking OC daily now for about 3 or 4 months. I felt in my mind that I was not addicted and that I could stop any time I wanted to, but I just did not want to stop yet. I was enjoying it and I just wasn't ready yet. So we are experiencing I guess what would be a small sized drout here.. and it was very difficult for me to find some for 2 days... I always buy in bulk so I don't have to buy everyday, just so happened I ran out and needed more.

My guy said everyone is dry for atleast 3 days. So I said oh that's okay I'll just wait till you get them. So the next day goes by my husband says I seemed a little agitated but then again he didn't have any OC's either so maybe it was both of us being cranky. The following day, I literally could not get out of bed, I could not move, my stomach hurt sooooooo incredibly bad, all I could do was sit on the toilet all day I was so cold yet sweating. Oh my god it was miserable! Thank God that night my connect got some stuff in to hold us over till he got the larger amount the next day.

That was miserable! And I could not truly belive how horrible my body felt not taking them. I really felt in my mind that I could stop when I wanted too.. until I felt that horibble shitty feeling. But I don't want to stop yet, when I do have a shit load of suboxone so atleast that should help.

But really... that was a wake up call to me.. and I realized that I am addicted. So I feel that they are very addictive, and you don't realize until it's hit you, and in some cases too late.

 

[Kenaz]

The social or economic basis for addiction theory is laughable.

Opioids and Nicotine are unique. Morphine is considered the archetypal addictive substance. My own definition of addiction is the dual mechanisms of dependancy and compulsion occuring at the same time.

Opioids gets a bad rap because they induce physical dependence so quickly. It can take years of heavy drinking to develop a nice case of the DTs: a few weeks of daily heroin use will leave you dopesick when your supply runs out.

Aside from using the word for the sake of simplifying a conversation, I try not to use the word 'addiction' to describe compulsive use of substances that produce only compulsive use and not dependancy (stimulants), or substances that produce compulsive use and a 'pseudo-dependancy'/rebound effect (GABAgerics/downers).

Someone who has regularly been taking 20+ mg. of Xanax or Klonopin a day is a bit more than "pseudo-dependent" and may suffer far more than a rebound effect if they abruptly discontinue usage. Same for heavy users of GHB, GBL, booze, barbituates, etc. As I said above, it takes a bit longer to get physically hooked -- but once you do you're REALLY hooked.

binge artist: As far as opioids are concerned, dependancy is a big deal. It marks the transformation of either recreational use or compulsive use of opioids to addiction, which is a much different set of circumstances when compared to other drugs of abuse. Someone else mentioned the low incidence of iatrogenic addiction: the development of addiction in patients who require opioids medicinally. For these people, the issue is not dependancy, because dependancy is by itself almost inconsequential. This is also why a large percentage of medically dependant opioid users can end their opioid therapy when necessary with little or no problem- or effort.

I disagree with your characterization of a chipper. I guess all opioid addicts go from being a chipper to an addict, but those who put effort into staying a regular non-dependant user (already filling half of the addict scenario: compulsive use) are constantly in danger of developing dependance, which changes their use into addiction, with all of its physiological consequences. Personally, I've never met a chipper who, after becoming accidentally dependant, went back immediately to being a chipper. All I've known became typical addicts, they did not return to their former use pattern- IMHO, because of this dual nature of addiction.

I agree, and might add that the "chipper" who only uses on weekends but then spends the week counting the minutes until Friday's dose is already habituated. Physical dependence, as you said, is only one part of the issue. And of course psychological dependence can be considerably harder to kick than the physical stuff. Lots of junkies get clean and stay clean for years before succumbing to those nagging cravings which persist long after the dependency has been overcome.

To me this idea makes much more sense than addiction as a catch all word for dependancy, compulsive use, regular recreational use, or just 'Liking' something a lot. Chocolate addicts, gambling addicts, sex addicts, etc are simply people with a compulsive use problem: identical to the compulsive use problem of stimulant and depressant users, and opioid 'chippers'.

QFT. Although I might use "dependency" to define the physical dependence and "addiction" to define the psychological addiction. A regular long-term meth user may well be addicted without being dependent. A long-term chronic pain patient who uses her Fentanyl patches and Roxis for breakthrough pain is almost certainly dependent without being psychologically addicted to the high those drugs can produce.