Harm Reduction Mitragyna speciosa (kratom)

[aspiringchemist]

I second the drastic increase in opioid tolerance. It sucks to say the least. I too experience withdrawal from kratom if ingesting only opioids, unless at a rather high dose. I've found it takes at least 50mg hydrocodone, 30-40mg oxycodone, and 15mg methadone to produce euphoria and relief without kratom.

I have found that mixing kratom tea with traditional opioids works alright; much better than TW + opioids. Idk why this is but I venture a guess that it has something to do with the amount of plant material in the stomach, almost like food blocking absorption. If I only TW 7.5g and add 5-10mg hydrocodone or oxycodone I find it quite nice for during the day, energy and analgesia. However, mixing full doses of the two never got me anywhere unless using tea. I enjoy 20mg hydrocodone plus tea brewed with 15g or adding 10mg hydrocodone an hour after kratom ingestion.

I do suggest getting a scale if you intend to keep using it. It just makes it easier and their like $10. I have no idea how much a spoonful is and various kratom powders are often of varying densities. For someone with a high opioid tolerance I personally would suggest at least 7.5g to start, if not 10g of good red bali/borneo/sumatra, working up to 12/15g doses. If we're talking about actually providing similar effects to high dose opioids or replacing them.

I romanticize to this day... I just dont cross certain lines anymore. Dont get me wrong, the thought of smoking speed and heroin all night with my wife is simply amazing, though simply not worth it in the long run. I probably wouldn't be able to stop in all honesty. Also, she would never even entertain the thought of such behavior... and I would be alone... again... hard drugs and that lifestyle turn me into a fucking animal, literally living off of survival instinct. I'm still fucked up mentally from it all.

I've been homeless, incarcerated, strung out blah blah blah. I'm good on living that shit lifestyle again. I gave up alcohol like 1.5 years ago (one of the best choices of my life). It took me a long time to kick the heavy opiates and honestly the only way I did it for real was by joining a 12-step program and participating like my fucking life depended on it, because it did. Cocaine, methamphetamine, and heroin were necessities daily. I spent almost 10 years in the program, continuous. Though opted to leave some years ago due to ideological differences.

I am not an advocate of 12 step. Just sharing what I had to do when it was time to get real. Obviously I am no longer abstinent, but I approach substances with a different attitude, much more knowledge, and a hell of a lot more respect than I used to. I also am personally not ok with fucking my life off the way I was way back when. Misery perpetuates misery when it comes to addiction.

 

[aspiringchemist]

I use grapefruit juice to wash down the powder. Something I guess the citric acid in it totally removes the kratom chunks from your mouth and then leaves no aftertaste of the kratom. And for me, g/f juice potentiates the effect of it.

Very nice! It is interesting you find the GFJ to potentiate kratom given that recent research showing that mitragynine is metabolized in vivo via CPY pathway to produce 7-Hydroxymitragynine. Theoretically inhibiting this enzyme family would lead to less mitragynine conversion to 7-HO, but could very well result in an increased duration of effect with less of a peak high.

Every time I've personally tried a CPY inhibitor to potentiate kratom I ended up with reduced euphoria and an increased duration of action.

In what way does potentiation occur for you with this method? I am always looking to learn new things

 

[xaddictx]

Very nice! It is interesting you find the GFJ to potentiate kratom given that recent research showing that mitragynine is metabolized in vivo via CPY pathway to produce 7-Hydroxymitragynine. Theoretically inhibiting this enzyme family would lead to less mitragynine conversion to 7-HO, but could very well result in an increased duration of effect with less of a peak high.

Every time I've personally tried a CPY inhibitor to potentiate kratom I ended up with reduced euphoria and an increased duration of action.

In what way does potentiation occur for you with this method? I am always looking to learn new things

I would say more on the lines of a more pronounced rush and quicker onset? Now sometimes I will mix strains which could also aid on the potentiation factor. Now just happen to be a fluke of genious when I mixed the Kratom and the G/F juice also.

 

[aspiringchemist]

Thank you. None taken. In fact it kind of is like a relationship. I want to get off if because of how dependent it makes you and eventually you reach a point where your tolerance just gets worse and worse and so do the side effects. It's a dead end.

I know this isnt even close to the same level as opioid discontinuation but I recently applied to graduate school and learned that admission is dependent upon passing a 10-panel.

I love cannabis and smoke it daily, have for years. I'm bawling my eyes out in panic rn and yesterday because it doesn't feel possible to stop and I need to now. Feels pretty pathetic. I'll try and take my own advice.

With the conditions I have cannabis is medicinal but federal institutions do not recognize legal or medicinal cannabis.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Very nice! It is interesting you find the GFJ to potentiate kratom given that recent research showing that mitragynine is metabolized in vivo via CPY pathway to produce 7-Hydroxymitragynine. Theoretically inhibiting this enzyme family would lead to less mitragynine conversion to 7-HO, but could very well result in an increased duration of effect with less of a peak high.

Every time I've personally tried a CPY inhibitor to potentiate kratom I ended up with reduced euphoria and an increased duration of action.

In what way does potentiation occur for you with this method? I am always looking to learn new things

People say it needs to be a white grapefruit? Where is this fabled white grapefruit as it is not at the local supermarkets.

 

[xaddictx]

People say it needs to be a white grapefruit? Where is this fabled white grapefruit as it is not at the local supermarkets.

I think its a fable to need the fabled WGF to get the amplified effects of Kratom. Now I did state that a "fast" strain was preferred for that. YMMV though. Experiment, my friends!

 

[aspiringchemist]

WGFJ will produce more pronounced CPY inhibition. I find it at health food stores most often. Scientifically speaking, inhibition of the CPY pathway should lead to reduced levels of 7-HO, and reduced level of effect overall, as 7-HO is the primary metabolite of mitragynine and exerts the primary mu receptor agonism.

With that said, it should also lead to an increase in duration. So I can see that being viewed as "potentiation".

Same idea as with codeine. Inhibition of CPY3A4/2D6 leads to reduced amounts of conversion to morphine in vitro, thus using WGFJ or cimetidine with codeine is lessening the overall opioid effect.

This is just what the science says. That doesnt mean individual differences aren't at play causing some sort of potentiation.

Link to 2019 study of mitragynine metabolism below

7-Hydroxymitragynine Is an Active Metabolite of Mitragynine and a Key Mediator of Its Analgesic Effects - PMC

Mitragyna speciosa, more commonly known as kratom, is a plant native to Southeast Asia, the leaves of which have been used traditionally as a stimulant, analgesic, and treatment for opioid addiction. Recently, growing use of the plant in the United ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

So red grapefruit works too just not as well?

Sorry tbh I don't know what you said aspiringchemist--without any chemistry background hahaha.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

White grapefruit is best. I wish Ruby Red grapefruit worked, it tastes better than white.

 

[xaddictx]

White grapefruit is best. I wish Ruby Red grapefruit worked, it tastes better than white.

Ruby red is the shizzle. I usually pick up about 3 or 4 of the small bottles at my local watering hole up yonder

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

Haha yesss...so refreshing!

 

[aspiringchemist]

So red grapefruit works too just not as well?

Sorry tbh I don't know what you said aspiringchemist--without any chemistry background hahaha.

No worries.
Think of kratom like codeine. Would you inhibit the pathway that converts codeine to morphine thus getting less morphine knowing that morphine is more powerful than codeine? Or would you induce that pathway to get more morphine? See what I'm sayin?

The same is likely to occur with mitragynine. Inhibiting its metabolic pathway will result in LESS 7-Hydroxymitragynine concentrations (7-HO is reported to be 17x stronger than morphine in its mu agonism effects).

In simple terms, GFJ inhibits metabolism of mitragynine, thus results in less opioid effects because less 7-Hydroxymitragynine is produced. It is backwards. One needs to induce these enzymes to increase the rate of conversion to the stronger opioid compound, not inhibit its conversion.

The one caveat is that inhibition of the metabolic pathway will likely cause the duration of effects to increase, and dampen the peak down.

 

[aspiringchemist]

The purpose of ingesting WGFJ is to decrease the activity of CPY3A4, which is the pathway responsible for producing 7-Hydroxymitragynine. Same as CPY2d6 is responsible for codeine --> morphine conversion. Taking a 2d6 inhibitor with codeine would result in less morphine being produced via metabolism.

Based on the results in this study WGFJ would not potentiate kratom. However, individual differences do occur.

XaddictX - almost makes me wonder if you're CPY3A4 activity is low. Interesting shit!!

If you WGFJ to potentiate kratom then please dont stop on my account lol. I just know whenever I inhibit CPY3A4 and ingest kratom I experience reduced effects with an increased duration, which falls in line with this most recent literature.

 

[Mycophile]

Hey Mycophile sorry for the delay in my response. My life has many hardships right now and I don't always make it to BL. So if ya already took it I hope it went well.

I've went through 3 of them now and I gotta say I prefer the OPMS gold capsules to the tincture. IME the tincture was more stimulating and kept me up, which kratom never does.

It was pretty damn strong. I never take extract without plain leaf or tea so I cannot tell you how they feel alone. Each time I've consumed the entire shot followed by tea brewed from ~15g powder. It was actually a little dysphoric likely due to the nausea and too much NE release; fortunately I always have ondansetron on hand which works wonders for kratom nausea.

Within 15 minutes I was sweating and buzzing hard, laying on the cold kitchen floor trying not to vomit. It passed and plateaued, but kinda left me at 3 hours with a hangover feeling and just wanting to lay down.

Maybe that was too much for me. Idk. It was somewhat similar to some early experiences with too high of doses; the sweating, dilated pupils, tremors etc. I just know now that I'll be ok so I dont panic.

I believe leaf is ~15mg mitragynine/gram, so 10g kratom is ~150mg mitragynine (if I am correct in the initial dosage per gram, which I may not be).

One of these shots is 118mg, so about 8 grams equivalent by doing the math, but I'd say the entire shot is on par with 10-12g probably, but that's just a (mildly) educated guess.

Something interesting to note is that I used to be addicted to phenibut at 2 - 4g per day for about a year. I have been off of it almost a year (I dont exactly remember how long).

I have extensive experience with gabaergic drugs including benzodiazepines, barbiturates, and the gabapentinoids (gabapentin, pregabalin, phenibut). Phebibut has this distinct feeling to me that I always recognize. It's sort of a heavy headedness and loss of coordination that consistently occurred when I took phenibut. I swear the past 3 days that I've ingested the OPMS tincture extract I have felt that familiar phenibut feeling. Now I am certainly not accusing them of lacing the product with phenibut at all, but it was the strangest thing.

I just poured out 2 OPMS gold capsules and TW'd them on top of 15g maha kali red vein tea after a long day of vyvanse and adderall, ensuring everyone in my family was satisfied all day. Now it's my turn

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays BL'ers
✌

UPDATE - Feeling way better at T+30 min with 2 OPMS gold capsules and 15g brewed tea than the OPMS liquid tincture.

When I picked these up today the shop owner recommended zion herbals gold reserve capsules and gave me a 5 pack for free. Anyone used these? I'll report back when I do.

I tried the shot too like a week ago, even though now i am stopping kratom and booze and all drugs for at least a while.

I was also on phenibut at the time, and yeah, i like phenibut too.

For me it was also very stimulating, but did not get me sick.

I took like another 6 grams of red powder on top of it too cause i wanted some more sedation with the stimulation hahahaha, still didn't get sick.

I have never gotten sick in terms of throwing up from kratom.

It was certainly unsually stimulating though, but i do get stimulant effects regularly from kratom, even SOME from red strains but not so much, and i literally cannot sleep on kratom.

If i take a red strain i can usually fall asleep with melatonin like 1 hour after it wears off, but i swear if i take any significant amount of any green or white strain, and i like greens best, i cannot fall asleep for like 4-6 hours AFTER THE KRATOM HAS WORN OFF.

I preferred it to the OPMS pills, which actually are one of the only types of kratom i have tried that made me mildly naseauous and not feel so great, and personally i did not like them at all, nor did i find them to be any stronger than my usual kratom.

I can't say if i would have thought the shot felt like phenibut cause i was also on phenibut too lol...and phenibut and kratom are always such a great combo.

Well, my kratom wd is over after a full week without, and i'm gonna go as long as i can without kratom, alcohol, phenibut, dexadrine and most drugs, maybe it'll be a few months, maybe longer, certainly i don't plan on forever, but i gotta be sober for a while.

Not that kratom is bad, as it's the safest of the drugs i use, but it kills my drive to exericise completely and kills my drive for other things too and makes me less ambitious and less hardworking and also increases my cravings for other drugs so that's no good.

When i use one thing i usually use others so for me it's usually all or nothing.

But i'm ready to get back in shape and be sober for at least a good while.

 

[xaddictx]

View attachment 19962

The purpose of ingesting WGFJ is to decrease the activity of CPY3A4, which is the pathway responsible for producing 7-Hydroxymitragynine. Same as CPY2d6 is responsible for codeine --> morphine conversion. Taking a 2d6 inhibitor with codeine would result in less morphine being produced via metabolism.

Based on the results in this study WGFJ would not potentiate kratom. However, individual differences do occur.

XaddictX - almost makes me wonder if you're CPY3A4 activity is low. Interesting shit!!

If you WGFJ to potentiate kratom then please dont stop on my account lol. I just know whenever I inhibit CPY3A4 and ingest kratom I experience reduced effects with an increased duration, which falls in line with this most recent literature.

Very well could be, Chemist. Many a drug has passed thru this body of mine.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I'm honestly jealous of people who report such strong effects from kratom. It does help to reduce opiate cravings but it's an extremely mild and short lived high for me even if I take like 10g. And to give a frame of reference, I can take 200mg codeine and it will feel much stronger than 10g kratom, so it's not like I have a sky high tolerance over here.

I usually get red strains for the calming effect but I also have tried green, white, and mixes. Some strains are stronger than others but even the strongest kratom I've had is about the same level as codeine.

Extracts obviously provide the strongest high, and I'd put the extracts at somewhere between codeine and morphine, but regular old kratom powder is weak as shit in my experience.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I actually wanted to clarify that kratom effects are pretty consistent for me in the fact that I always feel it but in comparison to something like oxycodone, it is relatively weaker and feels like half what oxy does for the brain. I can tell there's just something lacking in the composition that makes it less "whoah" like when oxy or heroin hits the brain, but the euphoria from kratom can be just as strong--however I find kratom to be less pleasurable in general.

But something like 1/20 batches, I'll take half my normal dose and feel it incredibly intensely. There have been definitely some bags that have felt just as good as oxycodone or if even more.. but this is pretty rare. Some kratom batches just feel abnormally really dank. People find it to be a relatively weak painkiller but for some unexplainable reasons at this point I actually find it to be better for pain-relief qualities. This could be because my body is so adjusted to it after a year of daily use now that it requires it to not feel pain, but oxycodone actually lost any pain-relieving qualities for the most part. I can't tell if it does anything for physical pain at all, but kratom definitely dulls out the pain way better if I've got sore back stiffness or something like that. In fact if I don't take kratom at this point I'm helpless to random minor aches and pains all over my body. I'm not sure if this is from working out and suddenly I feel how that strains out my body or it's some form of withdrawal symptom from needing kratom.

@Mycophile I'm glad you feel fine after a week. That's good news for me. You still felt effects with the meds you're on?

Anyway... @aspiringchemist I feel like you would know the answer to this question. How do the opiate receptors in the brain work in terms of quantity of doses? For example, why do I benefit more from lower/moderate doses with opiates (kratom and stronger things)? For example, if I take a lot of kratom or opioids beyond my tolerance it's like my body can't process it properly and it's a complete waste of expensive material. In some ways I feel the effects more pronounced but the pleasure aspect is less than the buzz of a slightly less substantial dose. It's like that saying less is more when it comes to opiates for me. Maybe my receptors can't process the larger amounts of higher doses when they're not adjusted to it? That's why I'm a little bit not understanding of overdoses when it comes to people pushing recreational use to the maximum. It actually feels less enjoyable to have the mindset of "let's see how high I can get."

But then something like heroin seems to be totally it's own world. People constantly push it past the limit even when they're struggling with shallow breathing and etc because the effects seem to never have a pleasure ceiling cap and taking more and more seems to be worth it in the user's mind. Maybe something about heroin's composition is just unique in regards to kratom and opioids. But I'm just asking these questions because I can't tell if I'm the only one with a pleasure threshold like this. I'm not asking these questions to encourage myself on how to get higher by the way. I've just noticed with other substances besides opiates like stimulants I don't have the same dilemma.

 

[aspiringchemist]

I'm honestly jealous of people who report such strong effects from kratom. It does help to reduce opiate cravings but it's an extremely mild and short lived high for me even if I take like 10g. And to give a frame of reference, I can take 200mg codeine and it will feel much stronger than 10g kratom, so it's not like I have a sky high tolerance over here.

I usually get red strains for the calming effect but I also have tried green, white, and mixes. Some strains are stronger than others but even the strongest kratom I've had is about the same level as codeine.

Extracts obviously provide the strongest high, and I'd put the extracts at somewhere between codeine and morphine, but regular old kratom powder is weak as shit in my experience.

I agree. I'm jealous as fuck that you all can purchase codeine and morphine OTC!! I would rather ingest pharmaceutical opioids or opium any day, I just dont really have the access or a line anymore. I think it is comparable to codeine, but I prefer opiates to opioids any day so theres that. Codeine being a naturally occurring "opiate" as opposed to an opioid.

Kind of interesting though that both codeine and mitragynine appear to act as pro drugs and both occur naturally. I'm fascinated with the notion of why these receptors exist in our bodies, especially with regards to psychedelic plants and fungi that occur naturally. Philosophically speaking, it seems like the receptors exist only for the plants that activate them. Just interesting... tangent... I'll stop lol

When I want to get a real opioid effect at the end of the day I either TW 16+ grams or make tea with 25 grams. It is shortlived, maybe 4 hours.

I've said it a lot in this thread and others but I certainly would prefer to be on a maintenance opioid such as methadone or buprenorphine. I'm sure I could get on one but then I'd have to admit to the kratom dependency which would compromise some of my other legitimate prescriptions.

 

[aspiringchemist]

I actually wanted to clarify that kratom effects are pretty consistent for me in the fact that I always feel it but in comparison to something like oxycodone, it is relatively weaker and feels like half what oxy does for the brain. I can tell there's just something lacking in the composition that makes it less "whoah" like when oxy or heroin hits the brain, but the euphoria from kratom can be just as strong--however I find kratom to be less pleasurable in general.

But something like 1/20 batches, I'll take half my normal dose and feel it incredibly intensely. There have been definitely some bags that have felt just as good as oxycodone or if even more.. but this is pretty rare. Some kratom batches just feel abnormally really dank. People find it to be a relatively weak painkiller but for some unexplainable reasons at this point I actually find it to be better for pain-relief qualities. This could be because my body is so adjusted to it after a year of daily use now that it requires it to not feel pain, but oxycodone actually lost any pain-relieving qualities for the most part. I can't tell if it does anything for physical pain at all, but kratom definitely dulls out the pain way better if I've got sore back stiffness or something like that. In fact if I don't take kratom at this point I'm helpless to random minor aches and pains all over my body. I'm not sure if this is from working out and suddenly I feel how that strains out my body or it's some form of withdrawal symptom from needing kratom.

@Mycophile I'm glad you feel fine after a week. That's good news for me. You still felt effects with the meds you're on?

Anyway... @aspiringchemist I feel like you would know the answer to this question. How do the opiate receptors in the brain work in terms of quantity of doses? For example, why do I benefit more from lower/moderate doses with opiates (kratom and stronger things)? For example, if I take a lot of kratom or opioids beyond my tolerance it's like my body can't process it properly and it's a complete waste of expensive material. In some ways I feel the effects more pronounced but the pleasure aspect is less than the buzz of a slightly less substantial dose. It's like that saying less is more when it comes to opiates for me. Maybe my receptors can't process the larger amounts of higher doses when they're not adjusted to it? That's why I'm a little bit not understanding of overdoses when it comes to people pushing recreational use to the maximum. It actually feels less enjoyable to have the mindset of "let's see how high I can get."

But then something like heroin seems to be totally it's own world. People constantly push it past the limit even when they're struggling with shallow breathing and etc because the effects seem to never have a pleasure ceiling cap and taking more and more seems to be worth it in the user's mind. Maybe something about heroin's composition is just unique in regards to kratom and opioids. But I'm just asking these questions because I can't tell if I'm the only one with a pleasure threshold like this. I'm not asking these questions to encourage myself on how to get higher by the way. I've just noticed with other substances besides opiates like stimulants I don't have the same dilemma.

Let me think about this and respond later. Thanks for your inquiry!

Ok so as far as the pain killing properties working better than oxycodone for you, my guess is that this has to do with the fact that kratom contains some 25+ alkaloids with varying medicinal properties including VGCC blocker (like gabapentin), alpha 2 adrenergic agonists (think clonidine, lofexidine, or.tizanidine). Also ones that are smooth muscle relaxants. And many more that I cant name off the top of my head. All of these things, plus the mu agonism from mitragynine and 7-HO make for a great all around painkiller.

To be honest, I am not sure the answer to your question. I'm not that smart! Lol
But I appreciate you thinking I am! :giggle:

I can only speculate. Typically one's receptors are able to recieve high doses and strong binding opioids regardless of current lack of tolerance. This is why people fall out when shooting up while trying to quit or chipping, or when they've never used before. I don't believe receptor saturation occurs with most opioids but I could be totally wrong here.

My GUESS would again be enzymatic in nature. Perhaps your body has some kind of inability to metabolize larger amounts, thus you are not getting the increased effect that should occur with increased dosage, just unwanted secondary effects.

Some opioids do have saturation points. Codeine is a good example. The enzymes responsible for producing morphine typically become saturated around the 400mg dose, thus taking more codeine is wasteful because the body cannot convert it to morphine.

If you had some kind of genetic variation of your CPY enzymatic pathways it could cause issues like this. Genetic tests are available to determine the activity of most of these enzymes, but they're costly tests. I had one ran and what I learned was really interesting.

Again, this is all just a mildly educated guess and speculation. Certainly not medical advice in any way lol

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Let me think about this and respond later. Thanks for your inquiry!

Ok so as far as the pain killing properties working better than oxycodone for you, my guess is that this has to do with the fact that kratom contains some 25+ alkaloids with varying medicinal properties including VGCC blocker (like gabapentin), alpha 2 adrenergic agonists (think clonidine, lofexidine, or.tizanidine). Also ones that are smooth muscle relaxants. And many more that I cant name off the top of my head. All of these things, plus the mu agonism from mitragynine and 7-HO make for a great all around painkiller.

To be honest, I am not sure the answer to your question. I'm not that smart! Lol
But I appreciate you thinking I am! :giggle:

I can only speculate. Typically one's receptors are able to recieve high doses and strong binding opioids regardless of current lack of tolerance. This is why people fall out when shooting up while trying to quit or chipping, or when they've never used before. I don't believe receptor saturation occurs with most opioids but I could be totally wrong here.

My GUESS would again be enzymatic in nature. Perhaps your body has some kind of inability to metabolize larger amounts, thus you are not getting the increased effect that should occur with increased dosage, just unwanted secondary effects.

Some opioids do have saturation points. Codeine is a good example. The enzymes responsible for producing morphine typically become saturated around the 400mg dose, thus taking more codeine is wasteful because the body cannot convert it to morphine.

If you had some kind of genetic variation of your CPY enzymatic pathways it could cause issues like this. Genetic tests are available to determine the activity of most of these enzymes, but they're costly tests. I had one ran and what I learned was really interesting.

Again, this is all just a mildly educated guess and speculation. Certainly not medical advice in any way lol

Haha, it's okay--thanks for attempting to answer. That's interesting, because a lot of people find it to do nothing to help their chronic pain when looking for an additional pain-killer and already on high dose opioids or something like that. There have been a couple of times where I've been on moderate dose opioids and not have had any alleviation in back pain. All the sudden I'll take a tiny bit of kratom and it goes away entirely. To me it does not feel like legitimate pain because I never have back pain, but more like a withdrawal symptom where many encounter during opiate withdrawal random aches and pains throughout their body. Either way opioids do nothing for physical pain or headaches at all for me at this point. Not like I need them to but just found it strange how I respond better to 8 grams of kratom drastically over something like 60mgs of oxycodone. I'm probably more dependent on the alkloids in kratom then since there are way more than I thought.

Btw... totally of topic but what would happen if I brought kratom with me onto an airline or something? Lollll