Harm Reduction Mitragyna speciosa (kratom)

[Phoenix_rising]

I've used kratom many times over the years and when it first hit Europe I bought from a wholesaler,the first wholesaler who was creating plantations in Indonesia,he was a Dutch fellow I believe. It was a long time ago and my memory not so good.

I found kratom to be a wonderful medicine for those who have been addicted to opiates. For me it felt better and more wholesome,it was a natural version of Tramadol with more to it. I asked myself "why is it not being used in mainstream medicine instead of Methadone and Buprenorphine?"

At the time in New Zealand they were testing it for this purpose and apparently was accepted as a new maintenance treatment,but no Doctor would prescribe it or knew where to get it. Much like legal cannabis in the UK for medical reasons...What a joke!

When I started looking into the chemistry of Kratom I found out that Mitragynine,the main psychoactive alkaloid is very complex to synthesize. This is probably the main reason it's not found in modern medicine. We all know that big pharma are all about profit and greed,they could produce Mitragynine,but choose to use cheap and nasty alternatives which are inferior instead.

Thank God for the vendors who supply Kratom and the farmers who produce it,but wouldn't it be nice to pop a pill that contained all the alkaloids in Kratom? I know some of the vendors have produced their own pills from extracts,which is as close as were going to get. Maybe its better this way,but not for those who would rather have it prescribed instead of other cheaply made maintenance drugs.

I wonder how many addicts would choose a pure Kratom pill over traditional maintenance drugs? I'm thinking most would. Not only does it stop withdrawals but also works as an antidepressant and stimulant and is much better for the body.

I put it to the vendors out there or the producers,can you make a really strong,slow release pill of Kratom aimed specifically to those who want to come off of traditional opiates at an affordable price? This is the thing,cost. Heroin,Fentanyl,Methadone etc etc are cheap so why swap for a more expensive product? If the price of Kratom came down I could imagine more people using it,like the Cannabis market in the USA.

It's a false economy to keep the prices so high,reduce the price,more people buy as a better alternative and bigger profits are made. I'd rather see a world flooded with Kratom and no deaths than a world we have now which is flooded with deadly opiates and killing countless lives.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

Does kratom really cost that much? I don't think so. No medicine is cheap really, especially if you don't have good drug insurance.

A slow release pill is an interesting idea. I do prefer not having to consume much powder or many pills, but it's a small sacrifice to make.

There are kratom shots that make it much quicker and it's an even better feeling than the powder, but that creates tolerance super fast. It's a nice treat once in a while, but no good for continual use. Plus, it's more pricey.

You definitely get more bang for your buck buying powder in bulk and putting it in capsules yourself. (vegetable capsules are much better/healthier than gross gelatin capsules).

And you can bet your ass the government is against kratom because they aren't profiting from it. They'd much rather see people spending tons of money on their pills and rehabs or better yet, see people dead. Then they wouldn't have to worry about it at all.

 

[speedballs_over]

As far as synthesis goes it's the same with semi-synthetic opioids (heroin, hydro, oxy) all the thebaine based opioids have to get their starting material from opium grown, not from a lab synthesis. Though it has been done it is extremely difficult and costly compared to attaining the starting material for synthesis from a plant. This is true of many alkaloid drugs discovered and used as drugs today.

Tasmania and India supply most of the alkaloids coming to the US for further processing into the opioids we know so well. They grow the opium and extract the desired alkaloids from the resin of the flowers and the stalks. They purify it and send it around the world for further processing into prescription drugs.

So it's not a matter of synthesizing starting materials for making the concentrated forms of mu agonists traditionally taken in their more native forms (opium resin, kratom leaves).

Legality and the future of kratom are likely inhibiting the growth (no pun intended) of the market place for kratom leaves & extracts much less the investments necessary to achieve the goal of a well made pharmaceutical preparation of kratom alkaloids, at that unless only one compound is isloated and used for the drug there are serious costs to having multiple active ingredients in a pill marketed with FDA approval. Seriously higher costs.

Then there's the entire clinical trial process after such a drug is formulated.

Unless governments get behind the idea of kratom, it will face the same fate that methadone would have if not for Nyswander and Dole demonstrating to the gvt that it worked for stabilizing people with opioid dependency. That's a fascinating story but I digress and methadone is fully synthetic same w/ fentanyl.

The medical community tends to feel we have more than enough mu agonists already. They need educated on the difference between mitragynia and thebaine based mu agonists. It is stunning how little the practicing medical commmunity knows about drugs in general much less obscure (to them) plant matter consumed for it's pharma properties.

So there's all that.

Some lesser companies could try to do this - but the cost and the risk are likely not worth it. Venture capital would not be available unless legality were settled, at which point bigger companies would likely take over the market.

Maybe we're better off where we are now than upsetting the apple cart?

If you feel strongly about the future of kratom send your government representatives letters or e-mails advocating for kratom to remain unscheduled, give solid reasons why and keep it short and to the point (unlike myself). These communications do get counted and the representatives know exactly how many of their constituents advocate for/ against a particular law or in this case the prevention of prohibition in the least.

Educate your representatives about the benefits! Without the govt eiher ignoring it or getting behind it it will remain in this perceived legal limbo forever or worse become scheduled.

 

[psy997]

Kratom is super, super cheap if you know where to buy it.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

he was a Dutch fellow I believe.

He was

I wonder how many addicts would choose a pure Kratom pill over traditional maintenance drugs? I'm thinking most would. Not only does it stop withdrawals but also works as an antidepressant and stimulant and is much better for the body.

Without having extensive experience in the Opiod class. Codeine is reasonably tolarable but so sedating it is annoying. Tramadol and Poppy Pod's are steps below Kratom. Kratom imo rules.

 

[Phoenix_rising]

As far as synthesis goes it's the same with semi-synthetic opioids (heroin, hydro, oxy) all the thebaine based opioids have to get their starting material from opium grown, not from a lab synthesis. Though it has been done it is extremely difficult and costly compared to attaining the starting material for synthesis from a plant. This is true of many alkaloid drugs discovered and used as drugs today.

Tasmania and India supply most of the alkaloids coming to the US for further processing into the opioids we know so well. They grow the opium and extract the desired alkaloids from the resin of the flowers and the stalks. They purify it and send it around the world for further processing into prescription drugs.

So it's not a matter of synthesizing starting materials for making the concentrated forms of mu agonists traditionally taken in their more native forms (opium resin, kratom leaves).

Legality and the future of kratom are likely inhibiting the growth (no pun intended) of the market place for kratom leaves & extracts much less the investments necessary to achieve the goal of a well made pharmaceutical preparation of kratom alkaloids, at that unless only one compound is isloated and used for the drug there are serious costs to having multiple active ingredients in a pill marketed with FDA approval. Seriously higher costs.

Then there's the entire clinical trial process after such a drug is formulated.

Unless governments get behind the idea of kratom, it will face the same fate that methadone would have if not for Nyswander and Dole demonstrating to the gvt that it worked for stabilizing people with opioid dependency. That's a fascinating story but I digress and methadone is fully synthetic same w/ fentanyl.

The medical community tends to feel we have more than enough mu agonists already. They need educated on the difference between mitragynia and thebaine based mu agonists. It is stunning how little the practicing medical commmunity knows about drugs in general much less obscure (to them) plant matter consumed for it's pharma properties.

So there's all that.

Some lesser companies could try to do this - but the cost and the risk are likely not worth it. Venture capital would not be available unless legality were settled, at which point bigger companies would likely take over the market.

Maybe we're better off where we are now than upsetting the apple cart?

If you feel strongly about the future of kratom send your government representatives letters or e-mails advocating for kratom to remain unscheduled, give solid reasons why and keep it short and to the point (unlike myself). These communications do get counted and the representatives know exactly how many of their constituents advocate for/ against a particular law or in this case the prevention of prohibition in the least.

Educate your representatives about the benefits! Without the govt eiher ignoring it or getting behind it it will remain in this perceived legal limbo forever or worse become scheduled.

I'm in the UK so Kratom's already banned under the psychoactive bill 2016. I used to have Kratom straight from Indonesia and got really good prices and product,but when it was banned it started becoming harder to import.

The vendors started to ship it via the USA to try and not draw attention,but customs became aware of it. The seizure rate is high now,the Last one seized was labelled as an obscure herb,but they must have tested it because the letter I received from them stated that it was a psychoactive substance.
It didn't state what substance it was though which makes me wonder.

Anyway I would much prefer to be maintained and happy using Kratom rather than synthetic opiods or natural opiates. Kratom is safer and much better for your health.

But since the psychoactive substances ban kratom has become too expensive for me. I'm paying more than twice as much for a kilo now and its breaking the bank.

Because we have the NHS here it's much cheaper to be prescribed opiates/opioids than buying Kratom. If you're not in work then you get your drugs for free and if you're in work like me then it will only cost you £8.50 fortnightly. If Kratom was an alternative at those prices I would I'd stick to it.

We had a petition here for Kratom not to be banned. I think it has to have a certain amount of votes first before it gets petitioned to government,I'm not sure if the amount was ever met and if it was it never made any difference. That's the thing about the UK government,they're pretty liberal or lax until things get into the media then they act on things to an extreme without thinking or doing research and then when they've made their decisions then they can't be budged. Unless there's a public outcry and unfortunately for Kratom there hasn't.

We do have a real problem in the UK with Heroin and the abuse of opiates/opiods but nothing like the USA,for a start we haven't got the cartels flooding the market with that poison called Fentanyl and we haven't got Doctors over prescribing pills. I know its changed in the USA with prescribing now and it's become more strict and the pain mills have been closed down,but they have a serious epidemic that's killing so many people still. Maybe if it were the same here our Government would have to listen to the people when they protested about future bans on Kratom,but it's not and they dont listen.

I do feel strongly about it that Kratom should be legal and regulated here,not for recreational purposes but for those who need it as an alternative,even instead of antidepressants. If the government didn't want to be doing it themselves they could outsource it and have those companies follow strict rules...Shit man I'd even do it myself and apply for a license.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I'm in the UK so Kratom's already banned under the psychoactive bill 2016.

There is a bit of humor in this bill.

You Phoenix_rising live in one of the 2 country's worldwide that has prescription Heroin as take away at the pharmacy. OTC Codein and Morphine based elixer's.

But banned Kratom, that's style!

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

I had no idea kratom was banned across the pond. What a bummer.

 

[aspiringchemist]

I'll chime in here. Been using kratom since 2014 in doses of 30-50g daily. Lots of experimenting has been done, on me lol.

I love kratom and am grateful to have it available. It's pretty asinine that its banned in the UK, yet other things are much more easily obtainable. I can't get an opioid script to save my life these days. I do get an amphetamine and benzodiazepine Rx, so I'm beyond grateful for that; been on both for about 5 years.

I was a pain management patient until 2014. The clinic I was at actually tested for mitragynine and 7-HO (metabolites of kratom) in their routine urinate analysis for prescribing. When this happened I was given an ultimatum, quit kratom or quit the clinic. So I quit the clinic after attempting to explain that having a small amount of pills a month to use on bad pain days would be helpful. It was a pointless attempt.

I would probably choose a daily Rx opioid over kratom at this point. I am in pain daily and simply function better on opioids; I feel like I can say that with certainty and responsibility at this point in my life. I've actually considered getting on buprenorphine for a few reasons...
It has shown efficacy as a treatment for treatment resistant dysthymia, which I have. Obviously it doubles as a pain management tool as well. My psychiatrist has brought this up on a few accounts though we haven't moved on it.

To me, it's just difficult to maintain the habit and be in the world, not easy to dose every 3 hours when you have a life and responsibilities. I cant leave the house without my next dose.

I can say that I would be into the idea of a kratom pill. The issue I've come across with high quality mitragynine extracts is that they sometimes still lack the magic of the entourage effect that plain leaf provides due to various alkaloid content as opposed to an isolated mitragynine/7HO.

This is of course a severe account of dependency. Just thought I'd share! I enjoy the kratom discussion threads.

 

[aspiringchemist]

Phoenix - regarding the slow release formulation, here's a thought. Mitragynine is metabolized via CPY3A4 to 7 hydroxymytragynine as evidenced by a few recent studies; I've posted the links in other kratom threads.

Based on this information, inhibiting CPY3A4 would theoretically increase the duration of effects while likely making them a bit more subtle.

Without having extensive experience in the Opiod class. Codeine is reasonably tolarable but so sedating it is annoying. Tramadol and Poppy Pod's are steps below Kratom. Kratom imo rules.

Poppy pods are not a step below kratom. No disrespect, but that is not correct. True papaver somniferum pods contain a myriad of opiate alkaloids, chiefly morphine and codeine, and in appreciable quantities. The result of scoring pods is raw opium. Papaver somniferum pods are much stronger and long lasting than kratom.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

Phoenix - regarding the slow release formulation, here's a thought. Mitragynine is metabolized via CPY3A4 to 7 hydroxymytragynine as evidenced by a few recent studies; I've posted the links in other kratom threads.

Based on this information, inhibiting CPY3A4 would theoretically increase the duration of effects while likely making them a bit more subtle.



Poppy pods are not a step below kratom. No disrespect, but that is not correct. True papaver somniferum pods contain a myriad of opiate alkaloids, chiefly morphine and codeine, and in appreciable quantities. The result of scoring pods is raw opium. Papaver somniferum pods are much stronger and long lasting than kratom.

You're right, as far as strength goes, poppy pods are the source of morphine so it's not a step below kratom as far as how strong it is. I think maybe that person meant they prefer the overall feeling of kratom to poppy pods. I agree with that. Poppy pods can feel like a shitty/sickly high sometimes. It's also very dangerous if you take too much and it slows your breathing way down to a life-threatening level. I haven't done pods or pod tea in many years. It sucks. So yeah, I prefer kratom over that.

 

[draculic acid69]

I've used kratom many times over the years and when it first hit Europe I bought from a wholesaler,the first wholesaler who was creating plantations in Indonesia,he was a Dutch fellow I believe. It was a long time ago and my memory not so good.

I found kratom to be a wonderful medicine for those who have been addicted to opiates. For me it felt better and more wholesome,it was a natural version of Tramadol with more to it. I asked myself "why is it not being used in mainstream medicine instead of Methadone and Buprenorphine?"

At the time in New Zealand they were testing it for this purpose and apparently was accepted as a new maintenance treatment,but no Doctor would prescribe it or knew where to get it. Much like legal cannabis in the UK for medical reasons...What a joke!

When I started looking into the chemistry of Kratom I found out that Mitragynine,the main psychoactive alkaloid is very complex to synthesize. This is probably the main reason it's not found in modern medicine. We all know that big pharma are all about profit and greed,they could produce Mitragynine,but choose to use cheap and nasty alternatives which are inferior instead.

Thank God for the vendors who supply Kratom and the farmers who produce it,but wouldn't it be nice to pop a pill that contained all the alkaloids in Kratom? I know some of the vendors have produced their own pills from extracts,which is as close as were going to get. Maybe its better this way,but not for those who would rather have it prescribed instead of other cheaply made maintenance drugs.

I wonder how many addicts would choose a pure Kratom pill over traditional maintenance drugs? I'm thinking most would. Not only does it stop withdrawals but also works as an antidepressant and stimulant and is much better for the body.

I put it to the vendors out there or the producers,can you make a really strong,slow release pill of Kratom aimed specifically to those who want to come off of traditional opiates at an affordable price? This is the thing,cost. Heroin,Fentanyl,Methadone etc etc are cheap so why swap for a more expensive product? If the price of Kratom came down I could imagine more people using it,like the Cannabis market in the USA.

It's a false economy to keep the prices so high,reduce the price,more people buy as a better alternative and bigger profits are made. I'd rather see a world flooded with Kratom and no deaths than a world we have now which is flooded with deadly opiates and killing countless lives.

Could call it kratonorphine.or kdone.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Poppy pods are not a step below kratom. No disrespect, but that is not correct. True papaver somniferum pods contain a myriad of opiate alkaloids, chiefly morphine and codeine, and in appreciable quantities. The result of scoring pods is raw opium. Papaver somniferum pods are much stronger and long lasting than kratom.

Just can't stomach the stuff even underdosing feel's unpleasant. But at a reasonable level it is so nausiating, like an overdose of Kratom one of your first times. These were locally grown 'true' Opium Papaver pod's. It grows about everywhere but if the alkaloid content can be manipulated through breeding less nausseating variatie's?

The extended lenght of effect's was actually unwanted.

Poppy Seed was somewhat lighter on the naussea. But the effect's don't do it for me both never got anything good out.

Kratom whole other story that kept me busy a few year's, stopped about 5 years ago.

 

[aspiringchemist]

Oh, if you were meaning subjectively you prefer kratom then of course that's your opinion and right

From a harm reduction standpoint I just wanted to clarify the statement so that someone doesn't come along, read it, and think poppy tea is weaker than kratom in terms of effects and duration.

I do agree that pods and seeds to tend to produce quite a bit of nausea. I grew somniferum for a while and tried various things; never scored them as that is illegal.

I did happen across a batch of insanely potent seeds from a chain grocery/health food store in the US a few years ago. Around the same time as my version of the "David Hasselhoff" cheeseburger video lol. These seeds were incredibly potent and produced a clean morphine-like opiate high for 15 hours at around 500g per dose. But the majority of my attempts have left me nauseas or disappointed as well.

The flooding of the cannabis market in legal states is ridiculous!! Theres so much grass they cant sell it all before it goes bad. Drove the prices way down.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

Oh, if you were meaning subjectively you prefer kratom then of course that's your opinion and right

From a harm reduction standpoint I just wanted to clarify the statement so that someone doesn't come along, read it, and think poppy tea is weaker than kratom in terms of effects and duration.

I do agree that pods and seeds to tend to produce quite a bit of nausea. I grew somniferum for a while and tried various things; never scored them as that is illegal.

I did happen across a batch of insanely potent seeds from a chain grocery/health food store in the US a few years ago. Around the same time as my version of the "David Hasselhoff" cheeseburger video lol. These seeds were incredibly potent and produced a clean morphine-like opiate high for 15 hours at around 500g per dose. But the majority of my attempts have left me nauseas or disappointed as well.

You have a Hasselhoff type of video? I'd love to see. Remember, sharing is caring! hehe j/k

Yes, poppy tea is very inconsistent as far as how you will feel when you drink it. You reminded me that's what annoyed me most about it. Plus, there's no real way of knowing how much opiate you're ingesting. Dangerous. I grew to dislike it.

 

[aspiringchemist]

You have a Hasselhoff type of video? I'd love to see. Remember, sharing is caring! hehe j/k

Yes, poppy tea is very inconsistent as far as how you will feel when you drink it. You reminded me that's what annoyed me most about it. Plus, there's no real way of knowing how much opiate you're ingesting. Dangerous. I grew to dislike it.

Oh ya! I think I mentioned it somewhere before. While taking lyrica I blacked out on dxm, kratom, lyrica, diazepam, and baclofen after being awake for 48 hours partying. My wife video recorded me while I was completely naked, nodding in and out, and rolling around on the floor for hours. When I woke up the next day she made me watch the whole thing.

For some reason when I took lyrica (as prescribed) it seriously potentiated kratom. I would nod consistently, knees buckling at the toilet type nodding, which NEVER happened from kratom until on lyrica (pregabalin).

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

Oh ya! I think I mentioned it somewhere before. While taking lyrica I blacked out on dxm, kratom, lyrica, diazepam, and baclofen after being awake for 48 hours partying. My wife video recorded me while I was completely naked, nodding in and out, and rolling around on the floor for hours. When I woke up the next day she made me watch the whole thing.

For some reason when I took lyrica (as prescribed) it seriously potentiated kratom. I would nod consistently, knees buckling at the toilet type nodding, which NEVER happened from kratom until on lyrica (pregabalin).

That sounds rough. Gabapentin and Lyrica can potentiate certain substances sometimes. It mostly fucks up my high if I let it kick in before taking an opiate. (We've debated this topic. haha)

That was a helluva combination you took. The baclofen and diazepam played a major part in you blacking out no doubt. Be careful.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Kratom is a double edge sword. It kept me off of painkillers for an entire year and I'd only do them once in a blue moon, but I caved in two months ago and it was absurd how high my tolerance to oxy had become from only using kratom for an extended time.

Literally before touching kratom 20 mg of IR oxy was enough for a day. Now it's 60-100 mg easily. So if you do return to oxy or heroin just BEWARE. I'm about to go back on kratom. It better keep the withdrawal from oxy at bay holy shit. It'll never replace the real deal. Kratom feels really good but it will never be pharmaceutical level godsend life destroying high. My god I hate them all LOL. Someone save me from these monsters.

 

[aspiringchemist]

Kratom is a double edge sword. It kept me off of painkillers for an entire year and I'd only do them once in a blue moon, but I caved in two months ago and it was absurd how high my tolerance to oxy had become from only using kratom for an extended time.

Literally before touching kratom 20 mg of IR oxy was enough for a day. Now it's 60-100 mg easily. So if you do return to oxy or heroin just BEWARE. I'm about to go back on kratom. It better keep the withdrawal from oxy at bay holy shit. It'll never replace the real deal. Kratom feels really good but it will never be pharmaceutical level godsend life destroying high. My god I hate them all LOL. Someone save me from these monsters.

Ya, this is a real bummer but true. I started another thread recently evaluating methadone use overcome kratom withdrawal. It took me 15mg+ of methadone (~equivalent to 60mg hydro/40mg oxy) to feel it and overcome the withdrawal. It routinely takes 50mg+ hydrocodone to feel it now, which falls in line with the methadone dose. One of the major downfalls to kratom imo as well.

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

Kratom seems to keep at bay more than one *demon... effects on many everyday duties. Mood boost is most valueable to me as I'm an asshole and it makes me a more likeable asshole. The pain regulation is decent and it's better than coffee in the AM... even better with coffee.
My time off from it for a coupla months left me wanting: had the benzos and oxys but shit didn't fell right for some reason... I attributed it to the broader spectrum of it's (kratom) affects/effects on multiple receptors and possible physical interaction.
Back to kratom and dosage raised but went back to the previous low dse and effects are sustainable.
Reminds me: Time to grab some more.....
WDs have not been comparable to other substances used; even at low-end dose of each.
The above is only my experience and has little to no value on real life.
Still love to get benzed out once in a while... the opies are not as desirable anymore.

Does kratom really cost that much?

Shit... nothing compared to the alternative of other meds... IME.