MDPV - So how dangerous is it?

[negrogesic]

This is purely subjective evidence. MDPV gives me terrible side effects. Heart pain, kidney pain, very long lasting insomnia and peripheral stimulation. MDMA has never done me any harm that is comparable to MDPV or Mephedrone. Amphetamine has never caused me a single painful physical side effect. Cocaine, same story. Personally I'd say one is better off not abusing any stimulant, but if I had to choose one to use in any capacity, it would NOT be MDPV. Probably would be amphetamine.

I recently tried intranasal MDPV for the first time, albeit at much higher doses than mentioned here (15-70mg) and I experienced a similar subjectively "toxic" body load, including chest, renal pain and general ache/pain. Interesting, the body load with D-MPH is rather low, while high doses of sustained cocaine abuse (particularly the base) can have paralyzing next-day aches and pain.

It feels like a dirty d,l-methylphenidate with a social element.....less centrally acting (or should I say, more peripherally active), however, it subjectively feels like it may be a very weak SERT substrate. Unlike D-MPH, MDPV has a weak but noticeable "empathogenic" qualities and very mild visual disturbances. I suppose this may suggest some weak affinity for the SERT, or perhaps some more complicated downstream SERT modulation via MPDV, by-products, and metabolites. Focalin lacks this quality and has doesn't a very weak, and virtually insignificant affinity for the SERT. MDPV might be a weak substrate. But, perhaps like in the case of L-MPH, perhaps an enantiomerically MDPV would lack some of the subjective physiological toxic properties......



I have concerns about the cardiopulmonary toxicity of this drug, and I don't like its relative instability-reactivity. And please do not vaporize this compound, sure it will "work", but the compound is rather fragile and you'll be smoking some rather nasty toxic by-products.

Overall all, my guess is that in respect to long term toxicity of MDPV (neuro and otherwise), it would crudely rank in between racemic methylphenidate and cocaine (ie, > racemic MPH and < of cocaine hcl)......

In any case, it is certainly without a doubt a toxin, to what degree......I personally don't want to find out........

 

[Dedbeet]

Speaking as someone who got one of the most thorough ass-kickings of my life at the hands of Mistress MDPV:

- MDPV appears to be remarkably easy on the circulatory system. The corpses would be piling up like kindling wood if it weren't. People have taken 100+ times an active dosage and have not suffered heart attacks, strokes, lost digits due to vasoconstriction, etc.

Agreed, although it is vasoconstrictive in high doses, at least in terms of skin/capillaries (have been finding this out lately since I tried vaping... e.g. red, swollen hands that itch on the comedown, feet feeling extra warm after the comedown, etc).

As far as cardiac stuff, I recall one single episode of "skipping/erratic heartbeat" on PV that scared me, just one, in the entire history of my use with it... and that didn't come to anything unfortunate. My heart is generally steady as a rock through long binges, although the rate can get faster than normal and it can certainly bring up blood pressure somewhat.

- I did note some very scary Parkinson's-like symptoms after usage - tongue-flopping, jerks and other shit I normally associate with antipsychotics and tardive dyskinesia. I suspect that this could become a major issue with sustained and heavy usage.

Me too, and IMO this is its biggest potential risk -- brain-related dopamine issues. I could see long-term addictive use creating a real mess for someone, perhaps bringing on a parkinson's-like syndrome.

- This shit is insanely compulsive when you start smoking/vaporizing it. I didn't run into trouble until I started hitting the pipe - but once I did it was all over from there.

Indeed, vaping can be real trouble. Emphasis on "can be" -- some just seem to just utterly lose control with it and do stuff like smoke a gram over 24 hours, go insane, destroy their life. Others don't get so bad. Everyone surely has at least some problems with it.

While it may be less cardiotoxic than many other stimulants, it is no less likely to induce stimulant/sleep deprivation psychosis.

In my experience, it's very difficult to induce a "clinical level" psychosis with PV, i.e. blatant hallucinations taken for reality w/paranoia, the stuff that gets people locked up (desoxypipradrol is another matter).

It's easy enough, however, to induce a state of bizarre unpleasantness with auditory hallucinations and the other senses screwed up as well... but you know you're hallucinating and unlikely to do anything crazy... it's more just unpleasant and miserable. And tends to pass within a day or so, if you aren't crazy enough to keep doing PV.

It helps with PV, and in fact with all stims, to make a distinction between brain chemistry and the psyche, and not let it get to you on a psychic level. In other words, realize that what's happening is related to changes in brain chemistry, and life has not become dark, twisted, evil, depressing, worthless, etc. IMO, those who can't keep their psyche and emotions out of the arena are the most likely to have serious problems with it. And those who can are likely to deal the best with it. Much of the ability to do that depends on lifetime stim experience/maturity.

 

[Istanbeko]

It helps with PV, and in fact with all stims, to make a distinction between brain chemistry and the psyche, and not let it get to you on a psychic level. In other words, realize that what's happening is related to changes in brain chemistry, and life has not become dark, twisted, evil, depressing, worthless, etc. IMO, those who can't keep their psyche and emotions out of the arena are the most likely to have serious problems with it. And those who can are likely to deal the best with it. Much of the ability to do that depends on lifetime stim experience/maturity.

WORD... exactly my sentences xD

 

[Dedbeet]

I recently tried intranasal MDPV for the first time, albeit at much higher doses than mentioned here (15-70mg) and I experienced a similar subjectively "toxic" body load, including chest, renal pain and general ache/pain.

Glad you noted it as subjective, as it doesn't prove it was actually a body load. A "toxic" brain load can as easily feel like a toxic body load if anxiety is involved. In fact no stim is needed, some people have panic attacks and feel pain in their chest and all sort of physical symptoms -- except no one ends up actually with organ damage from it.

It feels like a dirty d,l-methylphenidate with a social element.....less centrally acting (or should I say, more peripherally active), however, it subjectively feels like it may be a very weak SERT substrate. Unlike D-MPH, MDPV has a weak but noticeable "empathogenic" qualities and very mild visual disturbances.

Again we're in the subjective arena. Fwiw, I get zero empathogenic component and visual disturbances can get moderate after heavy or prolonged use. And I sometimes get extreme auditory disturbances related to misinterpreting actual sounds (not hallucinating ones that aren't there). For example, water running sounds like a chainsaw, the motor on the refrigerator takes up a "warble" to it, the computer fan sounds like a radio playing, etc.

I have concerns about the cardiopulmonary toxicity of this drug, and I don't like its relative instability-reactivity. And please do not vaporize this compound, sure it will "work", but the compound is rather fragile and you'll be smoking some rather nasty toxic by-products.

I don't think it's very cardiotoxic -- like all stims it can increase heart rate and blood pressure, but doesn't seem able to induce arrhythmias and other issues that tend to make "fast heart rate and heightened blood pressure" into a dangerous issue.

As far as smoking/vaping, there's a persistent idea floating around that smoking it exposes you to pyrrolidine and such, which is caustic. Then why is the smoke quite mild, doesn't make me cough or burn my throat, no heavy chest the next day, etc. ? I don't believe it.

 

[negrogesic]

^^^Yes all of this was subjective, but keep in mind, this is a research chem of varying purity/quality. The hypertension was greater than a crudely equipotent intranasal dose of D-MPH. Interestingly, it was not not as anxiogenic as intranasal D-MPH, in fact, I felt little anxiety, and distinct but not overwhelming comedown. However, the following day, when no CNS effects were present, I had some chest (pulmonary perhaps) pains, renal pain (mild), a rather dark orange urine (again, I used quite a bit). These pains were not delayed anxiogenic-associated pain or psychalgia of any sort, it was rather similar to the "day after" high dose cocaine abuse.

But again, who knows what my sample actually consisted off, at what dose, at purity, state of decay etc........Point is, the next day I felt a "hang-over" of sorts, with some sort of pain....potentially neuropathic in nature, however the rather specific renal pain suggests a possible nociceptor action potential overload, or disturbances in sensitization, plasticity etc, etc (nociception is....complex and only partially understood). Point is it hurt the next day....similar to a cocaine binge......That is all I honestly know. I did not feel much of a body-load while on the drug, but again, the next-day "body load" suggests that I either took too much, took some of questionable quality/quantity, or that perhaps, there is some SERT activity in the higher dose levels, which could explain next day "nociception"......

I never said it appear to have very high cardiopulmonary toxicity, but intrinsically, it has at the very, very least some. In other words, it doesn't 'seem' to be a "fenfluramine" sort of cardiopulmonary toxin, but it is assuredly not GOOD for the cardiopulmonary system. Then again, fenfluramine was widely studied and mass-distributed, whereas accounts of MDPV are sporadic, and IS not tested for in the standard "comprehensive" blood toxicology work-up (at least not in the US). Its not a matter about "is it toxic", its just "how toxic". Neurotoxicity is also inherent to this compound; in-depth studies regarding the degree and extent of it's neurotoxicity from sustained abuse or acute overdose are not prevalent or widely available (to my knowledge). What can be rationally assumed is, with long-term abuse, a decrease in transporter densities, etc......

At the very least, if you are to be using this compound with any regularity, submit it for testing, or even buy a melting point apparatus (yes this is crude, but better than nothing, and this device is good to have in general).........

 

[BigMoMo123]

Has anybody done Mephadrone/MDPV/Bath Salts(Tranquility/Cloud 9) on a daily basis? Mr has been doing about 400-500mg a week for a little over a month. Would like any comments or informatio on how bad this can be on a body. NOT how stupid it is. Thank you. Side Effects known - Common Stimulant effects,(rapid heart,talkitive,euphoria,awareness)slow heartbeat, slight chest pain in first few days, flutters?, very cold feet/toes, no blue limbs-knees, mild visual spots, mild blur in vision, no real paranoia, mild red feet/toes/fingers, little tingle when taken in higher doses. Would be compared to Cocaine,Meth,X,Speed. No real big expierience with those drugs but have been used. Addiction is an understatement with this. On it now its as this could go on all night. Thoughts? I plan to stop all use.

 

[Dedbeet]

Has anybody done Mephadrone/MDPV/Bath Salts(Tranquility/Cloud 9) on a daily basis? Mr has been doing about 400-500mg a week for a little over a month. Would like any comments or informatio on how bad this can be on a body.

Over/heavy use of any stimulant is very bad for you, and his applies to anything that tweaks dopamine, norepinephrine and/or serotonin.

For example, merely eating and sleeping very poorly for long periods can screw up your life bigtime.

Overuse of MDPV specifically will screw up your life without a doubt, and probably damage your body.

Overuse of mephedrone specifically exposes you to a toxic metabolite related to ephedrine which can damage your heart and organs, and will surely screw up your life.

Overuse of bath salts specifically will get you kicked to the kiddy korner on BL (just kidding ).

Would be compared to Cocaine,Meth,X,Speed.

All drugs have their particular issues, dangers and quirks. For example, the numbing effect of cocaine (sodium channel blocker) can damage the heart. Meth I believe is neurotoxic due to it being a booster rather than an inhibitor of dopamine. X has a serotonergic component with its own issues. And so forth.



Peace...

 

[Dedbeet]

^^^Yes all of this was subjective, but keep in mind, this is a research chem of varying purity/quality. The hypertension was greater than a crudely equipotent intranasal dose of D-MPH. Interestingly, it was not not as anxiogenic as intranasal D-MPH, in fact, I felt little anxiety, and distinct but not overwhelming comedown. However, the following day, when no CNS effects were present, I had some chest (pulmonary perhaps) pains, renal pain (mild), a rather dark orange urine (again, I used quite a bit). These pains were not delayed anxiogenic-associated pain or psychalgia of any sort, it was rather similar to the "day after" high dose cocaine abuse.

Fwiw, my personal experience is that MDPV is mostly dopaminergic in lower doses, and crosses over to NE at higher doses -- which is why a "normal" dose can feel euphoric and a higher dose can cause a lot of anxiety. It's also why it's not very vasoconstrictive in normal doses, but in high/prolonged dosing can be quite vasoconstrictive, plenty enough to be symptomatic re: skin conditions.

Of course, mainly vapers/smokers and IV'ers get to experience that territory fully -- and it isn't pleasant, except maybe the initial "rush". Since I first tried vaping/smoking MDPV less than a month ago, I've concluded that those who do it regularly have to be crazy. I *couldn't* do it regularly... one is in a state of continual dopamine overload/borderline psychosis with it the whole time, and it can "dip over" into the latter, too.

But again, who knows what my sample actually consisted off, at what dose, at purity, state of decay etc........Point is, the next day I felt a "hang-over" of sorts, with some sort of pain....potentially neuropathic in nature, however the rather specific renal pain suggests a possible nociceptor action potential overload, or disturbances in sensitization, plasticity etc, etc (nociception is....complex and only partially understood). Point is it hurt the next day....similar to a cocaine binge......That is all I honestly know. I did not feel much of a body-load while on the drug, but again, the next-day "body load" suggests that I either took too much, took some of questionable quality/quantity, or that perhaps, there is some SERT activity in the higher dose levels, which could explain next day "nociception"......

I never said it appear to have very high cardiopulmonary toxicity, but intrinsically, it has at the very, very least some. In other words, it doesn't 'seem' to be a "fenfluramine" sort of cardiopulmonary toxin, but it is assuredly not GOOD for the cardiopulmonary system.

Keeping in mind that used in lower doses it primarily effects dopamine, it's probably no worse than any other dopamine reuptake inhibitor. Generally it's a strong NE component that's related to dangerous cardiac issues, and once again that comes in at higher/prolonged dosing when there's too much dopamine in the body.

No stimulant is good for the cardiopulmonary system, probably, not even caffeine.

 

[rnd.id.]

- I did note some very scary Parkinson's-like symptoms after usage - tongue-flopping, jerks and other shit I normally associate with antipsychotics and tardive dyskinesia. I suspect that this could become a major issue with sustained and heavy usage.

Me too, and IMO this is its biggest potential risk -- brain-related dopamine issues. I could see long-term addictive use creating a real mess for someone, perhaps bringing on a parkinson's-like syndrome.

Are we talking about permanent dopaminergic neurotoxicity here? This is coming form another concerned ex-user (my motor/focus/motivation quirks aren't obviously worse than what I've always been like, mind you).

 

[Dedbeet]

Are we talking about permanent dopaminergic neurotoxicity here? This is coming form another concerned ex-user (my motor/focus/motivation quirks aren't obviously worse than what I've always been like, mind you).

I don't think anyone knows. I tend to doubt it, but don't think there have been any studies looking into PV's neurotoxicity. My guess is that it wouldn't be permanent, but you never know.

 

[negrogesic]

With prolonged and chronic abuse (at dose) irreversible neurotoxicty (symptomatic or otherwise) is a real possibility. That being said, by 'prolonged' abuse I am referring to a matter of years of daily abuse. I have seen patients who had abused cocaine (particularly with the base) for years, decades etc, exhibit distinct neuropsychiatric symptoms. Broadly, these symptoms consist of hyperkinesia, impaired speech/cognition, various motor-control abnormalities, etc. Again this is generally from long term abuse, but this does not necessarily give license to believe that this could not occur from sporadic use.

While easier said than done, use in moderation. If the self-administration desire is so great that moderation is not an option, discontinue.

 

[Dedbeet]

With prolonged and chronic abuse (at dose) irreversible neurotoxicty (symptomatic or otherwise) is a real possibility. That being said, by 'prolonged' abuse I am referring to a matter of years of daily abuse. I have seen patients who had abused cocaine (particularly with the base) for years, decades etc, exhibit distinct neuropsychiatric symptoms. Broadly, these symptoms consist of hyperkinesia, impaired speech/cognition, various motor-control abnormalities, etc. Again this is generally from long term abuse, but this does not necessarily give license to believe that this could not occur from sporadic use.

While easier said than done, use in moderation. If the self-administration desire is so great that moderation is not an option, discontinue.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if what you say above is true. The body/brain has an utterly remarkable ability to repair itself, but if not given the chance it's clear how lasting deficits could accumulate.

In terms of the OP and questions of huge brain-dopamine excess causing immediate, significant and lasting neurotoxicity -- probably not, once again due to the body/brain's remarkable ability to regenerate.

 

[negrogesic]

Yes I wholeheartedly agree; the body is remarkably regenerative. But pushed hard enough, for long enough, one begins to see "failures". Again, the degree of damage to which I was referring stemmed from very heavy and prolonged abuse, far from the level to which the poster was referring. However, there is a catch......I have seen some nasty acute toxicity cases with cocaine resulting in extremely severe, irreversible damage (in all honestly, these individuals should have never been revived.....their fate was far worse than death). In one case, paraplegia, cripplingly severe cognitive impairments (i.e, inability to form meaningful sentences etc). The cardiopulmonary failure had been so long (i.e no pulse, respiration etc) that he entered in the realm of near or partial brain death. This man honestly should have died.......but, we have become rather very good at reviving people after tremendous trauma. Unfortunately, we are not very good at restoring cognitive function.........

Ultimately its a "right-to-die" issue, and yes, technically there was a slim chance that after awoken from his induced coma, he would retain at least a reasonable amount of cognitive function. But with evidence of an ultra high body temperature and a prolonged cardiopulmonary failure with a respiration rate of zero for X amount of time.........the outlook was not good. Then again, I have seen people walk away from direct gunshot wounds to the head, even a case with .25 ACP round still embedded (and latter surgically removed) in the septum pellucidum almost into the stria terminalis, and the patient not only survived, but had only minor cognitive impairment and partial vision loss. Interesting, the woman was rather coherent upon admittance, able to speak clearly and with astounding lucidity. Fortunately, she was not shot point-blank, which would have been more problematic. But anyone who knows about firearms, knows that .25 ACP rounds are fired from very small guns, at close range. They used to be popular for "covert" execution/assignations, as they are very compact and are "relatively" quiet, especially with specialty sub-sonic rounds. But they now have subsonic .45 ACP rounds that have far more kinetic energy, and unlike the .25 ACP are virtually a guaranteed kill at close range....

Personally, if my body temperature is 108*F or higher for prolonged periods.........DNR...........There are fates far worse than death, and I have seen them up-close.......

 

[BigMoMo123]

This stuff has got to go away, banned, illegal... something.

 

[negrogesic]

I am now rather convinced that MDPV does in fact possess weak 5-HT inhibitory properties......unlike D-MPH, which has clinically insignificant affinity for the SERT.

 

[change-jug]

@BigMoMO123...........why? Why does it need to be 'banned,illegal,something"? Because you can`t handle it? Because you can`t moderate your own usage? What needs to happen is for the makers of these "bath salts", that are being sold at gas stations and head shops to ill informed 18 year old kids,is for them to stop being so greedy and pull it off of the shelves before it gets noticed by goody goody politicians who want to make head lines by banning substances they`ve never heard of. Oh wait,that`s already happening. Looks like you might get your wish after all.

 

[BigMoMo123]

^^^ Quite the opposite. Ive never "overdosed" on it, never done "too much". But its the most addicting thing I have ever taken, more so than coke, meth, benzos, cigarettes. Please don't assume I cant handle my drugs. Ive done em all, and more than needed and have been fine. I have been on MDPV and Cloud 9 for a month straight. With sleep, food etc.... I workout daily, take multivitamins etc... MDPV comes via online, Cloud 9 via head shop. So it doesnt matter where you get it. If the government wants it banned. It will be. Maybe what I should of said was put an age limit on. Ive done more than enough research regarding positives and negatives of these drugs. Im on it as this is being typed. The addicting part is what is most worrying.

 

[BigMoMo123]

(A) MDPV is an extremely safe stimulant.

(B) Its users are dangerous f*cking lunatics... beware of them .

C) Very addicting.

 

[BigMoMo123]

MDPV certainly comes with a hefty load of vasoconstriction, sometimes I will have 'pins and needle' (numbness/tingling) sensations in my extremities lasting for a day or so after using.

Probably one of the biggest turn offs about this RC. Why cant JWH-018 make a comeback.

 

[ektamine]

Why cant JWH-018 make a comeback.

Quite simply, 'cause of sensationalist soccer moms and the DEA