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LSD - does anyone agree? (argument about LSD being unhealthy)

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pmoseman said:
LSD is not healthy and frankly, when you begin to really understand it, then you learn that it is a less interesting way to experience life, it deprives the mind, and in the long term has negative effects, like confusion and depression, that need to be disclosed at all times.
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I'd disagree strongly if you're referring to reasonable healthy use, but agree that all psychedelics when used too frequently actually have negative side effects despite the fact we often look over them. They're mild, stuff like memory etc and feeling "fried" or burned out - but if you trip frequently, particularly on phenethylamines, but it goes for any psychedelics really - then I find you don't gain much from the trips and the side effects start taking over.

That said those side-effects always disappear with a short break in my experience, but it's not worth getting them in the first place when your trips stop being so magical and unique too - I used to be the trip several times a week every week guy when I first discovered psychedelics but now I find I get a lot more having a few trips a year :D

Better to space your trips out, you gain a lot more then :)

I think when used appropriately as tools and not abused psychedelics can offer more benefits than pretty much any other class of drug out there I know of. I can't think of anything else I know of where a single trip can change your life in such a positive way, like me curing my social anxiety, other friends curing anxiety and depression with single trips too etc. A lot of users particularly new and younger users tend to think the idea with psychedelics is just to trip all the time though and then I find you stop gaining from them and they just become a drag on your wallet and time and it's similar to smoking weed all the time, you'll just get lazy and burned out.
 
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pupnik said:
I live right down town
and I have a job
and I work with people of all ages
and none of them know I am an acid head and 62
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I live downtown too although you have me by a few years (I am 40, still old though). I would be nothing but bored if i lived in the country or a small town, or the suburbs.
 
It's important to know, that if you haven't had one of those rare ~ABSOLUTELY AMAZING VIVID LIFE CHANGING EGO KILLING~ experiences than it simply cannot be described adequately to understand, not even close. It's singular, and drips of divinity. I've felt an inexplicably intense feeling that God loved me, that I just broke down in tears for hours, overwhelmed by such a pure feeling that I'd never experienced even a fraction of before. The result of such an experience is as variable as the experiences themselves. That is to say, anything could happen. I think you want to make generalizations that are simply to broad.

Looking at the big picture I'd say most will have an experience that leaves them a better/deeper person assuming they have: an experienced mentor, a healthy mental/social life, proper state of mind, and the right timing and setting.
 
I am not sure that the experience had any deeper meaning. That it was just another experience. Maybe that is the point? To experience bliss.

Different experiences maybe.

But you get the experience of this and then what? There is something to gain from feeling the way you do moments before you die? Hate to be such a party pooper.

Also confused by having a psychotic breakdown afterwards. Out of the blue. But this must have been a build up. So that is why I have this generalizing question.

(anyways just another point of view)
 
No offense but you're not really pooping on anyones party if they really had an experience -that I already explained can't be truly described but you can't miss it- a true ++++ will ALWAYS leave a person dramatically different. That is the very definition of a ++++ afterall, an inexplicably moving, deep feeling of oneness with the very fabric of the universe. To see everything make perfect sense, the disorder shown to actually be an impossibly intricate design that has an infinite amount of processes and occurences all happening in relation and reliance to another. It's the sort of thing noone could ever discourage you about, or make you think less of. The fact that needs explaining does show that you are trying to draw conclusions about an impossibly complex field that is quite alien to you. You are doing the right thing to ask experienced people to try to explain, but it has to be experienced to understand. That's why this will go nowhere productive. You've drawn conclusions, and are not going to be able understand unless you are privilaged enough to experience it. Most never get to see it, I wouldn't sell any of mine for any price.
 
I do think that some people just aren't mentally/socially healthy, and therefore should absolutely abstain from anything that causes them to manifest signs of a psychotic break, lasting paranoia, narcisism, deep depressions, guilt, schizophrenic symptoms, etc. It sounds like maybe this isn't the right time for you to be using these substances and your bad experience is a pretty clear indication of that.

I had my best friend absolutely have a mental breakdown during a powerful acid trip. He suddenly began to believe he had done something terrible, and he felt so terribly guilty, but wasn't sure it had even happened. He wouldn't tell me what it was, and of course I didn't press the matter. I had my hands full keeping him from complete panic for eight hours... I got him through it without sedation, but he was mentally shattered, it brought on anxiety that was terribly debilitating to the point he had therapy for two years after. There's an example of someone who had gotten in a bit too far over his head and didn't know it. Sometimes the warnings we get are cruel and harsh, but there is something to be learned about ourselves in that time. The toll it takes is costly, you may as well glean all you can from it.

I've been tripping for ten years with severaly terrifying, downright traumatizing experiences but it's always shaken off quick and left me with an even greater interest. I don't think most people in the world -many here for sure though- would continue like I have. Using these poweful substances is a choice that really isn't right for many, but you must remember that your experiences are unique to you. In fact the probability of you having that experience is low for the vast majority of people, unfortunately you are one of the rare few.
 
Uncommon (possibly) but not rare.

Not high, within a month of heavy use, very illusory; decade of negative symptoms.

I indeed handled it like a champ... after it was done with me, of course.
 
I believe it can be very hard on your mind and put it under a lot of stress.

I have always been and continue to be baffled by the recklessness of most psychedelic users on this site, who claim to trip very often. For all the talk of great life changing experiences and teaching, it seems people choose to keep using it anyway before fully incorporating the experience and changing stuff in their lives, and that this potential for change is exaggerated. It can help you see better ways in which to live and deal with situations, but at the end of the day it is you giving yourself advice, and I doubt most people really implement it fully in their lives.

I think people glorify psychedelics too much and aren't skeptical enough of the experiences.

All that said, I wouldn't say it's unhealthy or dangerous. It's all very subjective and each of us have to be our own judges.
 
pmoseman said:
Uncommon (possibly) but not rare.

Not high, within a month of heavy use, very illusory; decade of negative symptoms.

I indeed handled it like a champ... after it was done with me, of course.
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Do you (not) realize that you talk about it as the subject, not the agent?

If you have done a lot of psychedelics, like you claim to, it was always your choice to engage in it every single time you did it. If you have any bad after effects it wasn't something it did to you, it was something you did to yourself. If it wasn't agreeing with you, you could've just stopped before further damage happened. Saying it was done with you sounds like acid bossed you around like a bad addiction would... yet it isn't addictive at all.
 
I've done shitloads of LSD and other than HPPD and raised BP, heart rate etc. LSD is fairly benign. That and tolerance combined with serotonin depletion from excessive use results in the LSD having almost no effect. Amphetamines are more of a head fuck IMO even psychedelic PEA's seem more headfucking and physically damaging vs LSD. Not saying that excessive use of LSD is without problems. I've met many crazy old acid heads from the 60's and 70's that just did way to much. Stupid amounts. That said I really enjoy 4 aco dmt, 4 aco met, 4 ho met, 4 aco mipt and use them fairly often with no obvious long or short term effects other than those I have already mentioned LSD causing.

Sure you can get elevated BP, heart rate etc but other than a stupidly high dose of 4 ho mipt and aMT most tryptamines seem less draining and damaging to your body than psychedelic PEA's and amphetamines. Opiates can cause issues especially if one doses a little to highly a little to often and deprives the brain of oxygen for a little to long. Amphetamines and other stimulant drugs can do as much or more damage to your cardiac muscles and other organs. Benzo's can contribute to developing cancer with excessive use. Pot as well. Sooo I guess the moral of this tale is excessive drug abuse/use of ANY drug can cause long and short term health problems. So LSD may be unhealthy if dosed excessively, if one is allergic to it or if one was to drive a car and crash while under the influence of LSD. Same for Etoh, weed, amphetamines, opiates etc.

To say LSD is completely benign and good for your health may be wrong as elevated BP and heart rate isn't a good thing but it probably won't kill you (unless you have an allergy or some cardiac condition). I think occasional doses of LSD are fairly harmless if the product is of good quality and the user in good health with no pre-existing health issues etc. I also think occasional doses of amphetamines do not pose a significantly high risk as long as the user is sensible with dose and activity as well as having no health issues that may be compromised by the effects of the drug. Same goes for any drug. Unhealthy if treated with respect, dosed appropriately and not abused? Probably not. However any drug can be unhealthy if dosed inappropriately and abused so to try and single out any substance that effects the function of the body and say it's unhealthy when dosed appropriately and not abused is incorrect. Abuse and excessive dose levels OF ANY DRUG will create a negative outcome.

Why don't we change this conversation to the following: Drug abuse is unhealthy regardless of the substance in question.
 
^ Yeah, there is a difference between use and abuse, and abuse of anything can be unhealthy, including LSD. Physically, it is fairly benign, psychologically however, its impacts are very powerful, and if it is misused, whether through wrong set and setting, excessive frequency of use, or whatever, it can certainly be mentally/emotionally unhealthy. The key is knowledge, maturity and responsibility when choosing to use it. Used wisely, it can be a great tool with many benefits. Used incorrectly, it can certainly cause harm to one's life. But that's up to the person themselves choosing to use - it is their responsibility to use safely and wisely, without putting themselves or anyone else in danger.

That includes people with pre-existing mental conditions. People who are bipolar for example, and who have had bad experiences with marijuana because of this condition, should certainly understand that choosing to use a psychedelic is probably not a good idea. Even a normal person though... if they know they need to pick up their grandmother at the airport later that day, or they are responsible for watching kids at any given time, or they have a lot of bad shit on their minds (unless they are either with an experienced therapist of some sort familiar with psychedelics, or have so much experience themselves that they seriously without a doubt know what they are doing) etc... they need to know the consequences and make healthy decisions, for the sake of themselves and for others.
 
sexNcandy said:
Do you (not) realize that you talk about it as the subject, not the agent?

If you have done a lot of psychedelics, like you claim to, it was always your choice to engage in it every single time you did it. If you have any bad after effects it wasn't something it did to you, it was something you did to yourself. If it wasn't agreeing with you, you could've just stopped before further damage happened. Saying it was done with you sounds like acid bossed you around like a bad addiction would... yet it isn't addictive at all.
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That is an incorrect conclusion. I didn't think it was going to be as problem and had no problems handling drugs. The thought of using LSD again as a crutch did cross my mind. My choosing to not take LSD again made perfect sense. Maybe it is not addictive but if it is necessary to continue to be healthy, or replace that need with other drugs, then it is addictive.

I wonder if people would be this defensive about psilocybin.
 
also, LSD doesn't deplete serotonin, quite the opposite.
It attaches to the same receptors and can actually, if overused, cause serotonin syndrome...FYI.
 
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QUOTE=sean107;12044123]Disagree.[/QUOTE]

I too disagree. I´ve taken LSD 10 years ago, and it was literally the worst thing i have done.
 
Your playing with fire and lucky that you mind is in one piece, so far.
It´s a very dangerous drug!!
 
This is precisely why an experienced mentor or guide is crucial for an inexperienced person thinking about a powerful psychedelice experience.

Such powerful experiences are NOT for everyone, or even most in my experience. I think had Pmoseman and Erikmen had a good experienced person around they may have been told that it wasn't a good idea.

Ultimately to blame a substance is backwards in my opinion, blame yourself, the guy who gave it to you, the guy who invented it even... Not assuming you guys are laying blame at all, but really it is all about set and setting. I've had experiences turn from nightmarish to fantastically wonderful and healing just by getting away from a bad place and bad people to be alone in a sunny forest.

It's too variable to make hard statements like you do, but it's also to variable to say that they are benign. Physically yes you can take a thumbprint and be ok, but psychologically you must understand what you are entering into. After all perception truly is reality.

Good lively topic so far, I think you see people as being defensive toward LSD, but you have to remember that many here have had truly positive life changing experinces with it's help. You should expect such responses when you seek to demonize something that many see as divine in nature. Wars have been fought for less.
 
pmoseman said:
How about fiber or glass? Substances your body cannot digest. So you are wrong.

I never have to hear about this again.
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OK...I am totally, completely, unequivocally convinced that LSD is extremely dangerous.

If it can make someone say shit like this 10 years after the fact then I am a believer...Pman, you are the fucking poster child for reasons NOT to use drugs.

Hell, instead of an egg frying in a pan, they should have an MRI of of your brain..."this is his brain...this is his brain on drugs"....that'll scare 'em straight if anything will.

WAIT, HOLD THE PHONE...maybe, juuuust maybe, YOU...P.Man..were bat shit fucking crazy before you ever did any drugs...?
 
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